shane661
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posted November 26, 2006 07:04 AM
Nitrous Pistons vs. "Standard Forged"
How much n20 hp do you think an "off-the-rack" forged piston is good for? I am not really clear as to when you need to start using a nitrous piston.
If I bought say, some 1270 pistons from Muzzy, or 1290's from JE...how much n20 can they take safely?
Now, keep in mind that this is for land speed racing. They will be subjected to spray for extended time, 15 seconds+, dependng on the venue.
In addition, besides the thicker dome, what are some other "features" that are different on a nitrous piston?
  
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Johnnycheese
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posted November 26, 2006 07:44 AM
no disrespect but with all these questions I would seriously look into some building what you want. I have seen this once too often
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shane661
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posted November 26, 2006 07:48 AM
 Edited By: shane661 on 26 Nov 2006 07:51
Well, no disrepect...but how is someone supposed to learn anything without asking questions? I don't give a rat's ass if I build it or not....I am trying to learn something here.
In addition, if you talk to ten different builders/tuners they all tell me something different. So, I am soliciting for info, ok?
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dougmeyer
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posted November 26, 2006 08:18 AM
Agreed, and I apreciate that.
Extended / high hp juice use would pretty much necessitate special pistons.
I'd have them move the pin down and use a shorter rod, or maybe use a smaller pin to get the area above the top land as thick as possible.
Get a few sets and lots of head gaskets.......
Right, Johnny?
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shane661
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posted November 26, 2006 08:31 AM
Edited By: shane661 on 26 Nov 2006 08:33
What I am really after is:
Will a 13.5:1 engine, running standard forged pistons, (either 1270 or stock bore), likely pop at Maxton if I am spraying 60 hp on it (assuming proper fuel delivery and timing retard)? Or is that a relatively safe setup?
I will probably spray the bike less than 5% of the time I ride. I mostly race 1/8 mile, and will now be taking it to Maxton.
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entropy
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posted November 26, 2006 11:09 AM
Edited By: entropy on 26 Nov 2006 11:18
quote:
...In addition, if you talk to ten different builders/tuners they all tell me something different. So, I am soliciting for info, ok?
Shane,
Yep, ask 10 different builders the same question, get 10 different answers...
Why?? IMO, its because that simple question needs to be answered in the context of a system, and each builder is guessing your context.
Johnnycheese isn't being snide or condescending, he's saying go to a builder and have the complete conversation. What are your goals? What are your constraints?
I have been successfully pestering JC, DougM, Brock, DaveO, Y2k, KCadby, JNoonan, 01zx12r, mtnmtr, and many more experts with yr type questions for 6 years and yes indeed, even those guys give different answers if I don't give em enough "context".
Even with all the contect in the world, there are gray areas where they simply have different opinions.
Don't get discouraged, keep asking questions (and write down the answers...)
just widen yr questions a bit: start asking also about aftermarket fuel, AF ratio, ign retard, quench height, valve to piston clearance... Hey, we can ALL benefit from the answers you get.
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shane661
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posted November 26, 2006 12:37 PM
No problem. I know there are some real experts on here. I wish I could afford to have a top builder assemble my bike, but I can't. I will have to farm some things out, and do the rest myself.
I also want to learn as much as I can. I have been working on my own bikes for 20 years. My dad and I even had a business tuning bikes back in the 80's. But I never have built an engine from the ground up.
I also have a desire to understand the theory behind the modifications. I am not happy to just say, "Hey man, just make it fast and send me the bill."
So, I hope everyone will take that into account, and not be too hard on me. Thanks.
Shane
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entropy
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posted November 26, 2006 12:44 PM
"...I wish I could afford to have a top builder assemble my bike, but I can't. I will have to farm some things out, and do the rest myself..."
I am in that category also.
I now do all my motor work except the head, but i am still asking questions, and understand yr situation pretty well. 
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VincentHill
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posted November 26, 2006 05:10 PM
Shane, Read my PM on the other thread and it is almost Word for WORD what Johnny Cheese said!
The #1 thing you need to do is figure out exactly what you want to do. Then How much HP you will need to get this done. Then depending on the amount of HP needed THEN you can decide what is the Best way to make it. For me just looking at the Questions you are asking, it looks like you have decided that you WANT 12,000 RPMs. You WANT between 13 to 13.5 to 1 Compression Ratio. You want the Lightest Pistons on the Market, You WANT to Spray a 100 Shot of NOS and Finally you not only want to "Run the Number" (Yet to be fully decided) but you also want to ride this bike on the street.
Everything you "Want" is not difficult! The Problem is wanting all of this in the Same Engine at the Same time.
Let me share a Well Known Secret about Racing and Most Racers. We all want to win going as Slow as Possible to min the Risk. With an Engine you should also want to make the Power needed with the least Stress on the engine as possible. That means the Lowest possible RPM, Compression Ratio and Shot of NOS. This means getting the efficiency of the engine as high as possible. (Excellent Ring Seal, Flow through the Valves and Ports, Cam Timing for the desired RPM and Power Band! This kind of thing!) OK??
Work these things out (What you want to do and How much HP needed to do it) and get back here for some serious discussions!
Everyone here Cares about you but we do not want to see you headed in 20 directions all at the same time 5th and 5th Guessing yourself.
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dougmeyer
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posted November 26, 2006 06:05 PM
Shane,
Regarding "What you're really after". I'd say the scenario you suggest would have a successful outcome given you're caveat about "assuming" proper timing and mixture, etc.
A 60 shot is absolutely the most you could hope to safely do with a dry kit, though.
D.
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Johnnycheese
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posted November 26, 2006 06:07 PM
Mr Hill is correct.
so is Entropy you need to set a goal and then plan. by no means am I saying "here how fast do I want to spend" but at the same time you are all over the place with post.
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shiphteey
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posted November 26, 2006 07:16 PM
So Shane, have you decided what your goal actually is? Is it a specific HP and then see what MPH it runs....or vice versa?
210 mph in the standing mile? I won't "preach" but I think getting into the nitrous world a little more "progressively" (pardon the pun) is a better and safer approach. Not saying you CAN'T go from 170 hp to 270 but I think you are going to be spending quite a bit of $$$ on this when its all said and done. Its easier to make mistakes when you're riding such a powerful bike, and making a mistake with a 40 shot (even with regards to timing and fuel) and you still may make it out ok....do it on the 100 shot w/forged pistons and all your hard earned money and countless hours go byebye.
I just think there is a WORLD of difference between 184 mph and 200.xx mph. I would go for that and THEN when/if you break 200 then refocus onto the next step. 200 mph vs 210 is a huge jump too.
If you are still dead set on the 210 mph goal by this time next year then I think keeping it stock displacement as many of the big nos 12 guys have w/stronger pistons and all the other necessay things to hold it all together is wiser than putting lots of $$$ on the big bore w/less meat on the cylinders.
Either slap on the 40 or do the valves and go 60. Although they are small shots and get "old" you will still love it in he beginning, trust me!
A.
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DrRyanScarsella
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posted November 26, 2006 08:00 PM
What is the stock 12r comp ratio?
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VincentHill
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posted November 27, 2006 05:32 AM
12.2 to 1 (In the Service Manual that we "ALL" Should have)
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shane661
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posted November 27, 2006 05:44 AM
Edited By: shane661 on 27 Nov 2006 06:19
My goal for this bike is liveable street manners. Low 6's in the 1/8 on motor, and 210 mph using spray at Maxton. This bike is not going to see nitrous on a regular basis.
While it may seem that I am going in more than one direction, that is not true. If you look at my recent posts/questions:
1) Anyone breaking valves?
Purpose: I have heard of a number of people breaking valves. I do not want to do that. I want to find out under what conditions they are breaking, and what components are being used. Since I have been considering an extended ecu and n20, this is pretty relevant.
2) What are the best valves, springs, and retainers
Purpose: What are the best components that I can afford? This can affect how the engine is built. If I can't afford the parts I need in order to make the bike last, then I am not going to set any kind of lofty hp goals.
3) How Much Compression is too much?
Purpose: At this point I am starting to lean towards more compression and higher rpm. It seems as though the lower end is plenty stout, and I can afford to make the valvetrain reliable. But I also know that I will need n20 to reach my 210 mph goal at maxton. So, that is where the amount of spray I can run becomes a question.
4) Adams Performance Inquiry
Purpose: Can I trust these guys to assemble a top-notch cylinder head? I just wanted to hear some feedback on dealings with the company.
5) Pistons Rack/Custom
Purpose: Determine if I can run enough N20 to reach my 210 mph goal using standard pistons. I am hoping to spray no more than 60, but I want to know the limits. I am willing to go wet or dry to achieve my mph goal.
6) Who Here Runs 12k+ Rpm?
Purpose: Some real-world feedback from people running the bike to extended rpm on a regular basis. Again, related to longevity.
So, to sum it up:
My plan so far is:
1) Stock bore 13.5:1 CP pistons. (I just prefer to keep the integrity of the cylinders, and gasket sealing surfaces...unless someone can tell me why this is a dumb idea)
2) Extended ECU (500 more rpm to take advantage of cylinder head work and the capabilities of the cams)
3) Ported head with new seals,stronger springs and retainers (longevity)
4) Upgraded trans by R&D, (and billet basket)
5) Nitrous. Probably starting with a small dry shot and seeing where that gets me, mph-wise. I can always go wet later. In fact, I am planning to run the bike just on motor for the first meet at Maxton.
Now, I am sure there are 10 ways to achieve my goal. And I am open to any ideas.
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Texas12R
Zone Head
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posted November 27, 2006 06:48 AM
Edited By: Texas12R on 27 Nov 2006 06:57
Several years ago I read an article about ceramic coating of piston tops.....I wonder if
that was a failed approach to heat shielding the dome.....may not be relivant to this thread
I just thought it might be, in part , a consideration...
I have used a dow chemical spray on product , 321 or something like that. It is a dry film
lube that is MoS2 " moly lube" @ 16.00 a can. I saw it used alot in aircraft, Good stuff
this may be worth a read http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine_coatings_review_tech/
Keep posting Shane!!!! It is helping me as much as it is you! THANKS!!!
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entropy
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posted November 27, 2006 08:50 AM
shane,
i'd think 2X about having yr trans done. Having it checked to assure all is well should be enough.
I have a full treatment trans from R&D, beautiful piece of work and will help me in the 1/4, but no real benefit for the mile or street. Rather spend the $$ on a big wet shot. You can turn it down for the street.
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VincentHill
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posted November 27, 2006 09:56 AM
Karl, is there ANYTHING you have not spent MONEY on when it comes to this bike??
From what I read that he is going to do on this page it looks like a Bike that with just got him over 200 by a few MPH and no more! Then he will have to go back into the engine and put in a thicker Base Basket or Flat topped pistons and spay about Double the amount to make it to 210. Shane, remember that the combustion Chamber does not like "Domes". A Curve is fine but Domes do not allow the Flame Front to go every where as quickly as an open chamber hence the 2 spark Plug Heads back in the Day!
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shane661
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posted November 27, 2006 12:06 PM
quote:
shane,
i'd think 2X about having yr trans done. Having it checked to assure all is well should be enough.
I have a full treatment trans from R&D, beautiful piece of work and will help me in the 1/4, but no real benefit for the mile or street. Rather spend the $$ on a big wet shot. You can turn it down for the street.
As I said, I do race 1/8. I did about 120 passes this past season, and I plan more than that for next season. I also like the peace of mind that the gearbox is not going to come apart. I hear what you are saying $$-wise, however.
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Phantom Menace
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posted November 27, 2006 12:57 PM
Edited By: Phantom Menace on 27 Nov 2006 13:00
quote:
shane,
i'd think 2X about having yr trans done. Having it checked to assure all is well should be enough.
I have a full treatment trans from R&D, beautiful piece of work and will help me in the 1/4, but no real benefit for the mile or street. Rather spend the $$ on a big wet shot. You can turn it down for the street.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one... it's worth it's weight in gold for safety in a high horsepower bike that will be dancing on the naughty side of 200mph.
From what I understand, the ZX-12R transmission is pretty weak in stock form. I've heard of plenty of stories from 12r guys having the c-clip pop out and destroying the tranny. Not only that, but it's been my experience that the stock tranny gears like to pop out under high stress (especially for nitrous/big bore 12's).
If you're planning on making anything over 220rwhp, I'd highly suggest doing the heavy duty clip mod that R&D provides, along with a race undercut on the gears. The last thing you want is your tranny to take a shit on you at 200+mph. For simple peace of mind it's worth the $$$... especially if this is going to be a bike that's going to see a lot of mileage on the street !!
I've seen R&D's work on my own 12r Tranny and it's impecable. Give them a call, Shane, if you decide on spraying a big shot.
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shane661
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posted November 27, 2006 01:18 PM
I have already spoken with R&D, and Mark. The guy spent nearly an hour explaining the 12R trans to me, and what needs improvement. This was after I told him I was not ready to buy anything. Truly a class act, and they will be getting my business:
Labor & Parts - R&D Transmission
-inspect and magnaflux $ 65
-undercut gears $350
-heavy duty circlip modification $159
-N20 Shift Drum modification $105
-Heavy duty fork rods $ 65
The work they do on the undercut, shimming, etc is pretty in-depth....not just some hack job. In fact, Mark knew all of the intricate details of the transmission design, without a pause. The only thing he had to pause to look up was the pricing. Like I said, top notch.
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entropy
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posted November 27, 2006 09:01 PM
Edited By: entropy on 27 Nov 2006 21:03
quote:
Karl, is there ANYTHING you have not spent MONEY on when it comes to this bike??
yep, i hadn't bored out the bucket wells for bigger buckets. BUT, by christmas i should be able to ckeck that one off the list.
On the trans; with 1/8 racing in the mix, i agree, go for it.
BTW: Mark is a great guy, eh? AND, he pretty much keeps to whatever delivery timing promises he makes!
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lonniemac
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posted November 28, 2006 03:17 AM
shane, wiseco makes a 1272 piston just for n2o. it has the relocation of the pin Dave mentioned, it makes for a thicker dome. talk to them, you may need to add spacer on cylinder and use stock rods to keep some cost down. and cometic gaskets will make the spacer any thickness you need for clearance and compression up top. the je pistons are good but the public retail ones are light for long time n2o spray. top end enrichment is what you will need to work very carefully with. to run a dry shot on top end will warant more than mapping a pc. i would concider the big injectors muzzy offer. and of coarse a good tuner on the dyno. there is also a fi box mps has or schnitz motorsports has that you can use as instant rich feature just for dry nitrous. it opens the injectors to full duty while the n2o is sprayed. i hope this info can help you. i know where you comming from.
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VincentHill
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posted November 28, 2006 06:05 AM
Falicon make Base Spacers for about $35 and Cometic charges $70
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shane661
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posted November 28, 2006 08:18 AM
Well, called CP yesterday. Apparently they have never made the 13.5:1 piston. It is listed in their catalog, but they have never produced one. JE does make the part, but doesn't have any on the shelf. As for Wiseco, somehow I remember being told that they are not very good pistons. Is that true? Or just the way they used to be?
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