VincentHill
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posted September 29, 2006 02:50 PM
AND WE HAVE A WINNER ALiveAgain
I will Post Pictures but the cylinders could not look Better I think the Head Gasket leaked but it did not do that badly!
Pictures a little later I have to clean up right now!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
  
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ZXLNT
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Kawpuke Extraordinare
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posted September 29, 2006 05:05 PM
Good news!!!!
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VincentHill
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posted September 29, 2006 05:13 PM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 29 Sep 2006 18:13
Here is the Head Gasket
The Head
Cylinders 3 & 4
Cylinders 1 & 2
No sense in Putting up more Pics they all liike the same.
Remember my first post about this this was #1 in what I was hoping for!
Now to clean the Head and Cylinder and see what I got!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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osti33
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posted September 29, 2006 06:11 PM
Glad you got it figured out Mr Hill.
Ryan
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aliveagain
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posted September 29, 2006 06:11 PM
Straight edge time,especially#1 and #2 cylinders.Glad it was a relatively cheap one.Are you satisfied with 8% on the other cylinders?
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted September 30, 2006 03:37 AM
Vincent, were you able to tell audibly where the leakage was going? (to coolant?)
I see you have thick head studs.... ?
Before i'd use those studs I'd check the stretch on them. I dont think your gettting enough stretch. Same problem as Pete (Aliveagain.)
You can check them. Cut a piece of schedule 40 or 80 pipe and torque the stud in the pipe to what you torqued the nuts to last time. Remember to use a Moly paste on the washers, threads and nuts for an accurate torque reading. Measure the length before torquing and then at the torque you used last assembly.
You may need to increase the torque to get the proper stretch from those thick bolts. If so then use a small torque number like 15 ft lbs and then measure angle untill you have proper stretch. Write down that angle after torque and use that angle for final assembly.
Or you may need to undercut the studs.
Or use the stock head bolts.
Steel shim head gaskets have very little forgiveness unlike composite headgaskets. They have no fire ring (except for an embossed ring) so gasket squish is consistant across the face.
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VincentHill
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posted September 30, 2006 04:25 AM
quote:
Straight edge time,especially#1 and #2 cylinders.Glad it was a relatively cheap one.Are you satisfied with 8% on the other cylinders?
Remember this was a Stone Cold Engine with no Oil on the cylinder Walls. Remember the Pistons are made Oval Shape for Blow By under start up to lower the compression some to take the stress ovv the Pistons when COLD!
I actually think that the leakage under the "Proper" conditions will be closer to 2 or 3%
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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VincentHill
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posted September 30, 2006 04:39 AM
Y2K You are above my head (As Usual)! Yes I am sure I did not use enough torque because I only used a Little more than stock 45 Foot Pounds!
I have a "Torque Angle" Meter but do not understand what you are saying about 15 Ft Pounds and "Measure the angle"??
Schedule 40 or 80 Pipe??
I used the Stock Head Gasket because I do not like the rough edges of the "Cometic"! You have a better Gasket I should be using?
I plan to straight edge the head and cylinder and use a Block with fine sand paper 600 or so and lightly go over the head and cylinder.
I plan to torque the head to 50 Ft Pounds this time> I have never been a believer of over torque from my old 2 Stroke days where I saw a lot of Cylinder Distortion from too much torque.
I use the Silver anitseize mixed with a little motul Oil to torque the Bolts!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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WARBIRD
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posted September 30, 2006 05:32 AM
Quote:
"Vincent, were you able to tell audibly where the leakage was going? (to coolant?)" 
Where IS it leaking??? Past the gasket to a coolant passage? Past an intake valve? (listen through the throttle bodies) Past an exhaust valve? (Listen at the exhaust pipe....) Past the rings? (listen at your oil filler cap or crankcase vent..)
Ya gotta know so you have a starting point........ 
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madmike
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posted September 30, 2006 05:47 AM
are those the APE studs? and if so you should torque them down more? then the rated value?
Thanks...
MM
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BROOKLYNNYZX12
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posted September 30, 2006 06:16 AM
Vince bottle pressure at 900psi at all times,jet accordingly.The dyno #'s were impressive.Keep on the conservative side and that thing should run some awesome #'s.
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Orient Express Top Street Bike Winner 8-4-07
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VincentHill
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posted September 30, 2006 01:26 PM
quote:
Quote:
"Vincent, were you able to tell audibly where the leakage was going? (to coolant?)"
Where IS it leaking??? Past the gasket to a coolant passage? Past an intake valve? (listen through the throttle bodies) Past an exhaust valve? (Listen at the exhaust pipe....) Past the rings? (listen at your oil filler cap or crankcase vent..)
Ya gotta know so you have a starting point........
As I brought the Piston up I could hear the air in the intake side (Understand that the Throttle Bodies were OFF) Intake Valve
When the Sound left the Intake the sound came from the Opening where the Rotor is (Rings)
near the bottom of the stroke the sound came from the exhaust (Understand that the Pipes were also Off) The Exhaust Valve
At No time did the sound come from the Radiator Hose because the air was leaking "Between" Cylinder 1 & 2 in a very confined space and IF he had leaked into the coolant passage, the pressure when I was riding it to the van would have pushed the fluid into the over flow and I would have a full tank and it was in the exact same place!. There is no Coolant passage where the leak occured (or at least not close enough to be involved!)
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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VincentHill
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posted September 30, 2006 01:29 PM
quote:
are those the APE studs? and if so you should torque them down more? then the rated value?
Thanks...
MM
MM, this I know but with the Low compression I felt that the basic torque would be enough and understand that I still have a block from my 2 stroke days as seeing Distorted cylinders from Over torque to go very High! To me, "50" PSI will be very high! (Since the basic is 43 PSI)
How high have you gone?
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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VincentHill
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posted September 30, 2006 01:33 PM
quote:
Vince bottle pressure at 900psi at all times,jet accordingly.The dyno #'s were impressive.Keep on the conservative side and that thing should run some awesome #'s.
As always I was testing and slowly raising the COntrol Pressure! Started with 700 and had gotten to 800 and then went to 1000
One of the things I was testing was to see how low of a pressure I could go and still make serious HP. I want to make a run starting at 1100 PSI Bottle pressure and set the COntrol Pressure at something that will allow me to finish the run above the Control pressure. I got tires of the test and Opened the Gate to a 250 SHOT and it did not handle it (So now I know the limit  )
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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GUNNER
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posted September 30, 2006 01:36 PM
quote:
quote:
Quote:
"Vincent, were you able to tell audibly where the leakage was going? (to coolant?)"
Where IS it leaking??? Past the gasket to a coolant passage? Past an intake valve? (listen through the throttle bodies) Past an exhaust valve? (Listen at the exhaust pipe....) Past the rings? (listen at your oil filler cap or crankcase vent..)
Ya gotta know so you have a starting point........
As I brought the Piston up I could hear the air in the intake side (Understand that the Throttle Bodies were OFF) Intake Valve
When the Sound left the Intake the sound came from the Opening where the Rotor is (Rings)
near the bottom of the stroke the sound came from the exhaust (Understand that the Pipes were also Off) The Exhaust Valve
At No time did the sound come from the Radiator Hose because the air was leaking "Between" Cylinder 1 & 2 in a very confined space and IF he had leaked into the coolant passage, the pressure when I was riding it to the van would have pushed the fluid into the over flow and I would have a full tank and it was in the exact same place!. There is no Coolant passage where the leak occured (or at least not close enough to be involved!)
Vince, Sir I don't understand this post.. The leak down test is always done with the piston at TDC on compression stroke. I'm confussed here PLEASE help me understand what you were doing.
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VincentHill
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posted September 30, 2006 03:29 PM
Simple, the Test was done at TDC but I had the AIr supply hooked up while turning the engine and heard these things. (SInce the PSI was only 10 to 15 PSI not difficult to turn the engine over. Also as the piston came up you could see the Pressure rise but after TDC any movement the pressure would drop. So the measurement was taken Dead Still at TDC but at EXACTLY TDC *Between this way and the position of the Rotor on the side of the engine I knew exactly where it was!*!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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flite leader
Zone Head
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posted September 30, 2006 06:27 PM
the pistons look very good altho no pics of the rings
or skirts
unable to tell about blow by etc
or if the ring pacs might be tired
that you have it down new rings might not be out of order
the valves look good & the combustion chambers
dont show any abnormal or frigthening tendencies
ive used pastye & lubes & anti seize
in areas where i didnt want broken or rust welded parts
(wheel studs.....exhaust manifolds for example)
never on head bolts
on the ARP site
they have several tables showing how reg 30wt..... WD40 & other
lubes affect torque values
lesson being
that which is shown on the gauge.........
IS NOT THE TRUE VALUE
if you have rolled studs from whomever
no doubt id torque them as specified from that supplier
if not
call ARP......
they will talk you
after a heat cycle & the oil.... lube .....or paste
has burned off
how much torque is left ....???????
no less for years
there has been a debate about retorquing heads
after say 300 miles(usually cars)
yet most manufacturers warn against it
glad you found your culprit
& essentially without any catastrophic damage
im sure youll be making dyno pulls soon
good luck
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or break your ass...!!
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aliveagain
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posted September 30, 2006 06:46 PM
Vincent,on APE website,it says to torque the same studs on a busa to 60psi.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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dougmeyer
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posted September 30, 2006 06:54 PM
Vincent,
Do I understand that you were simply pressurizing the cylinders at 10-15 psi?
That is not a leakdown test.
Had you done a proper leak rate, with the proper tool, you would have had your answer right away.
Leak Rates should be done with a differential regulator at 80 psi min, preferably 100psi., at TDC (firing) for each cylinder. Had you done this you would have heard the air in the adjacent cylinder (either inlet or exhaust) and would have been able to identify the blown gasket immediately. All of our (at least my) input was based on the assumption that you were doing a proper test.
Sheesh..
Dr. Doug
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GUNNER
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posted September 30, 2006 10:44 PM
Doug you know Vince...................He's busy reinventing the wheel  I never did understand from his post if in fact he did the test correct either. NO disrespect intended Mr. Hill but if the test was done properly you would have known. And at this point there's NO WAY on earth that I wouldn't pull the cylinder and check the ring lands and rings.. I would even check the wrist pin bores while I was at it. BUT that's just me I guess.
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VincentHill
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posted October 01, 2006 02:43 AM
It was the "WIERD"!!!! Tester I bought! Yes the best tester would have had (and Mine will also soon have) 2 Gauges! This way at 100 PSI in the first gauge I can see the Pressure Loss in the 2nd gauge and KNOW Immediately the the % of leakage and heard the air in the second cylinder. I do have a listening device
My First experience with this gauge and it was not a good one! I just found that I can get the Rings in 2 days (Originally I was told that it would be 4 weeks for Pistons and Rings but when I pushed I found that I could get the rings to 2 days) If it was going to be 4 weeks for the rings, then I was not going farther than where I was and disturb the rings and Pistons. Now AFter the Funeral I can take a Look and and just for the Heck of it run the Bottle Brush through the cylinder and install a new set of rings
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted October 01, 2006 03:13 AM
quote:
Y2K You are above my head (As Usual)! Yes I am sure I did not use enough torque because I only used a Little more than stock 45 Foot Pounds!
Ok, sorry I'll try to explain better.
Threads and nuts etc. dont directly create clamping force from the torque on the threads.
Bolt stretch actually creates the clamping force. If you had a bolt made so hard it didnt stretch then the torque and tension rise would be very very steep for just a1/4 or 1/2 a turn of the nut. But also the torque/tension would fall off very very quickly if the parts being compressed shrunk like a cooling head. These engines being aluminum expand and contract a lot. so without proper bolt stretch you loose clamping force quickly upon any part shrinkage. So by using bolts with alot of stretch, the clamped part can grow and shrink without effecting the total clamping force very much. Without knowing the makeup of the bolts alloy I would have no idea what you would need for stretch to have good clamping force. But I'm guessing about 80 ft lbs would be needed. Call whome ever you got the studs from and find this out. If they tell you the stock torque value then you should be alarmed and look elsewhere for the torque information. If you cant find it then you will need to meashre the stretch of the studs like i was saying in the above post. If you need details on how to check it you'll have to call me, It would be much easier than trying to type it all out.
Luckly, by design on the zx12r, because the head bolts dont screw into the block deck, head bolt torque wont distort the cylinders and deck surface. However any engine where the bolts screw into the deck surface is prone to cylinder distortion and you need to be carefull with anything other than stock bolts and torque.
From what your describing and the best I can tell from here you have a blown head gasket between the cylinders. This is most certainally caused from a lack of tension holding the head down or a warped block deck or head deck. If you check for warpage carefully and dont see any then the stud torque is the problem.
I dont think after you measure the ring tension and land clearance, you will see a need to replace the rings. Wet leakdown and compression tests, when using a steel non composite head gasket, will very often go up compared to a dry set of tests when the head gasket is blown. Steel shim gaskets dont "blow" like composites. They tend to seep and leak instead of a total blowout. Oil can fill the small leakage gap on a steel shim head gasket during a compression and or leak down test. I've seen it many times.
I would check the pistons and rings and vacuum check the valves, if nothing found throw it back together and use proper torque on the head studs.
Single guage leakdown testers work fine. You just need a steady air source where the supply pressure is stable. This way you set the input pressure to 100 psi and it stays 100 thru out the tests. They are trickeyier to get good info from but some practice and you will be fine.
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GUNNER
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posted October 01, 2006 06:51 AM
Vince I'll be more than happy to loan you my gauge if you need to have another one to compare.
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VincentHill
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posted October 01, 2006 07:11 AM
Y2K I have "Always" Described a Bolt as a very strong SPring! On the Porsche 1976 that had Magnesium Cases I used Divilar Studs that stretched like Aluminum but were strong like steel to keep the heated engine from pulling the studs out of the case. So I do understand that.
Great Idea to call APE to see what they say and then I will know what I need for the next time.
I also understand about "RE-Torque because of the stiction of the threads and no accurate readings. Too bad I cannot torque the head Bolts to a certain amount of Stretch like the Rod Bolts then we have the correct torque exactly.
I will have to talk to you more about Stretch.
Gunner I will take you up on this when finished to have something to test the tester!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Y2KZX12R
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posted October 01, 2006 12:53 PM
quote:
Too bad I cannot torque the head Bolts to a certain amount of Stretch like the Rod Bolts then we have the correct torque exactly.
You can torque them by stretch Vince. Just measure the free length and then torque the nut over pipe with the same lube your using for assembly untill you get the stretch you need.
Mark the nut and stud. Loosten the nut and re-torque to 15 ft lbs. Now measure the angle of rotation to get back to the marks. So lets say its 120 degrees to get the marks lined back up.
So now you do the same for all the nuts. 15 ft lbs + xx degrees.
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