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posted April 29, 2002 05:26 AM
Something I Feel I Should Post, I Hope Nobody Takes This The Wrong Way First off let me say that it is not my intention to piss anyone ,who has an '02 model 12, or is about to get one, off. Also I'm not trying to flame the bike or be biased at all. I just want to give potential buyers a heads up because I'd want the same thing, an honest opinion.
Most of you may have read where I stated on someone elses post that I felt the '02 didn't have the "Hit" of the '00 etc., hard to wheelie (VERY HARD) and all that stuff. Well I meant that, and it goes deeper than that. The person whos '02 12 I rode is a member of this board and I really didn't want to "go there" and just be totally negative about his bike, and I'm still not. His username is "laidover" and some of you may have even ridden with him in Daytona during bikeweek. He's a nice guy and a hell of a good rider. Pretty damned fast, and even though he's a big guy like me (280lbs), he's a hooligan at heart. He and I both love to wheelie and push things to the edge at times.
I called "laidover" Saturday morning and told him I was getting a Sunday ride organized and wanted him to come along. He kinda chuckled and said well I can't because I won't have a bike. I said WHAT??? He said I'm taking it back to the dealership and letting them sell it for me. Even though in my heart I knew why, I asked him. He said plain and simple that the fun factor is not there on the bike. It's fast, but not exciting enough. He agreed with me saying that in stock form it'd be a better drag bike because the front just stays planted. Even after we put a 17t front on it you had to "Make" it wheelie. I flogged the piss out of it to get a "pussy" wheelie in 1st gear even with the 17t on it, and never got a good one in second even when fingering the clutch. He said that he felt Gadson may have had too much input on the '02. Who knows???? Either way, it is what it is. He rode my '00 and by his own admission said it went against everything he'd ever "heard" about them. He liked my '00 really well and the only thing he said was that he felt the '02 did turn in just a little easier, but no big difference. Especially considering his had a new Pilot on the front and mine has an 010 with 2.5k on it. I agree with him though, it did feel a little lighter steering. He liked the riding position on the "old" bike better, and liked the stiffer rear spring. The '02 does have a more supple ride, and I think the stiffer springs out front work good too. They seem more on par with my forks I had reworked by GMD Computrack, just a little less responsive. But hey that's pretty good from the factory eh? Like I said I'm being honest, it is a good bike. But it ain't as spirited as the '00. I feel it is just more docile anytime you nail it versus the old bike, and for some that may be the ticket. But for me (and obviously laidover) it's not, and I have mixed emotions about it. I had hoped it was all the '00 & '01s were and more. But IMHO it isn't, it's tame in comparison and I won't purchase one in the future. I hate that, because my '00 won't run forever with the way I ride it. I figured I'd upgrade to a newer 12 in a few years, but unless Kaw makes some more changes to it I won't.
I'm not just talking about wheelies either. I'm talking about the overall picture. When you snap the throttle open on 160+ bhp bike you expect things to happen instantly. The '02 is just mild feeling for a bike with that kind of power. It's fast no doubt, and once again I'll say that in stock form it's the better bike for the strip. But for a wheelie riding hooligan who loves to hard charge the twisties, and lift the frontend on exits and stuff, the bike feels too tame. We took the bikes out on a good straight stretch of road and ran them out several times. I rode the '02 up to over 180 mph indicated and it is fast, but doesn't seem to pile on the mph like the old bikes would in stock form. His bike was stock with the exception of a D&D slip-on when we did this(hadn't put the 17t on yet), so I was comparing it in my mind to my '00 when it had the Muzzy bolt-on. It just didn't have the balls the old bike did. It's apples to oranges I know, but I'd give him the hit from 70 mph when I got back on my bike, and would still just walk off and leave him, by the time we got in the upper gears I was way checked out on him, and I mean WAY checked out. I know it was apples to oranges but I expected more out of the '02. I think the Candy Blue '02 is an awesome looking bike, and until I got to ride an '02 I had almost banked on that being my next bike purchase.
I know some of you have an '02 and I hope what I have written doesn't piss you off. The '02 is a fine machine, and a fast one. It just isn't the hard hitting bike that I expected it to be. It is more refined, but in refining it I feel Kaw killed a quite a bit of what drew me to purchase a 12R in the first place. For those of you who are a little less agressive that may be a good thing, but for laidover and I it ain't. He had planned on putting a 47t on the rear to gear it down even more than just the 17t did, and put a PC3r on it, and eventually put a full system on. But after thinking about it long and hard he decided that he may have just wasted his money. He figured it still wouldn't make the bike into what he wanted it to be. So before he sunk a lot of $$$$$ in it he decided to get rid of it.
Different strokes for different folks eh? It may be the end all bike for a lot of guys and that's great. But if you own an older 12 and are thinking about making the switch to the '02 I'd say you need to try and get a ride on one before you do so. You might be surprised at what you find, either in a good way, or a bad way. It all depends on how you ride and what you want the bike to do. I also have another person who added his own thoughts on this. He is a longtime friend and riding buddy who is a sales manager for a large Kaw/Yamaha dealership. He has ridden 3 of the new 12s he has sold, and is a former owner of a '00 Red 12R. He is in the business of selling these things so you'd expect a big build up, but not so. He had told me pretty much what the '02 was like before I'd ever ridden one, but I found out for myself. He was right on the money.
Once again any of you potential buyers need to get a ride on one and make your own opinions. I'm just stating my opinions which probably don't mean diddly to most of you. I just felt I should post my experiences on the '02 and don't want you '02 guys to be mad at me. I don't want ANYBODY to be mad at me, so please don't.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted April 29, 2002 05:42 AM
That seems to be a fair assessment, and nobody should take offense at that post. Most of the changes were indeed refinements (ride height, suspension, looks, better mid-range, etc) but nothing earth-shattering. If I could own both, I would indeed, the 02 for the looks and refinement, and the 00 for its raw nature. I am disappointed that they made the 12 look like the 9, which looks like the 6. It is becoming slightly harder to tell the different bikes apart, but in some circles that would be good! (stealth, pull off stickers, say it is a 9r or 6r...)
I honestly think that while new riders are deciding between bikes, they should consider why they should spend 10,000 to 10,500 for the 02 when they can pick up dealer left-overs (00, 01) for $8500-$9500? I know my dealer has at least 2 silver 01 leftovers that they would LOVE to get rid of, and would probably take a small loss (< $9500) to get rid of them. They have already lost their holdback, and the longer the 12s sit on the floor, the greater potential of a loss.
I think there will be even more refinements in the next year or 2, and maybe they will merge the 2 gens together and get the entire package to where everyone expects it to be. Time will tell.
They are all good, beautiful, and freakin' amazing machines, you really cannot make a wrong decision if you get any 12R.
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posted April 29, 2002 06:13 AM
Well Put...... Well put TeamSpeed, I agree.
Now about these leftover bikes, some bargains are to be had.
If I had the loot to buy one of these "new" older model 12s that some of the dealerships were dying to get rid of I'd do it in a minute. But unfortunately that isn't the case.
I'd like to have an '01 silver 12 beside little red. ____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted April 29, 2002 06:31 AM
I hear that, I am in the same situation (wanted a silver, have a red). Maybe I can talk the wife into my getting the silver, putting all my goodies on it, and leaving the older red stock one for her, hee hee. Now that would be cool.
posted April 29, 2002 09:22 AM
I have an '00 and an '02 right now. (selling the '00) The '02 is still breaking in, so I don't know how it will run in the end. As of right now though I know it runs better than my '00 did at the same point. It has more power throughout the rev range, and the fuel injection feels much better. It wheelies just as easily as the '00, if not easier. I'll have it at the strip next Sunday for the first time, and hope to have it on the dyno this week to get the powercommander dialed in. I hope the extra half inch of wheelbase and the 2mm of swingarm pivot movement make the bike hold down better, because I'm a drag racer, but to say the bike is "milder" or more "refined" does not fit my impression. It responded very well to the Muzzy pipe, and I'll see what I get when I do some dyno time. My old bike (with pipe ect.) made 171hp on a dyno that read 149 for a different stock ZX12, so it's not optimistic. I weigh 200lbs and have turned a 9.61 on it. I think it's a good running '00. I would guess that the changes (wheelbase mostly) will allow the '02 to launch harder, but I will not be surprised if it pulls more MPH too. Judging by the dyno sheets Muzzy is posting, the '02 runs quite a bit better, and my experience leads me to believe it. One thing I know though, the seat is MUCH better.
____________
Be consistent, win money.
posted April 29, 2002 10:00 AM
My Thoughts As was stated earlier we are group of memebers with one thing in common and that is riding secondarly it is riding ninja's, and each and everyone is is intitled to there thoughts on what to ride.
I must however disagree with you. I don't have all but 320 miles on my 02 and bought it as a replacement to my 00 that I and it wreacked last Sept in the Gap.
My bike (2002) is currently being brought up to standards see prior posts.
So having said that here's what I believe...
The steering is light years beyond th 00 and 01, if you have riden them this is a fact. The fact is the imput required are far less, the front end is much lighter, and the filckablity of the bike is know something you can say it has.
The throttle responce is far better, this evident in the 00 riders trying to get the oval throttle cam.
And finally... the look's you can agrue that.
I think the clutch sucks but stock ones usually do, I will have that changed before DGIII.
Well thats my two cents worth.
Bart
____________
Be fast and Be safe
posted April 29, 2002 10:07 AM
You better hang with us 00' owners on the Cherahola and the Foothills to back up you claim then Bart! LOL
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posted April 29, 2002 10:54 AM
Hmmm....
quote:I have an '00 and an '02 right now. (selling the '00) The '02 is still breaking in, so I don't know how it will run in the end. As of right now though I know it runs better than my '00 did at the same point. It has more power throughout the rev range, and the fuel injection feels much better. It wheelies just as easily as the '00, if not easier. I'll have it at the strip next Sunday for the first time, and hope to have it on the dyno this week to get the powercommander dialed in. I hope the extra half inch of wheelbase and the 2mm of swingarm pivot movement make the bike hold down better, because I'm a drag racer, but to say the bike is "milder" or more "refined" does not fit my impression. It responded very well to the Muzzy pipe, and I'll see what I get when I do some dyno time. My old bike (with pipe ect.) made 171hp on a dyno that read 149 for a different stock ZX12, so it's not optimistic. I weigh 200lbs and have turned a 9.61 on it. I think it's a good running '00. I would guess that the changes (wheelbase mostly) will allow the '02 to launch harder, but I will not be surprised if it pulls more MPH too. Judging by the dyno sheets Muzzy is posting, the '02 runs quite a bit better, and my experience leads me to believe it. One thing I know though, the seat is MUCH better.
I knew I'd come under fire. Man I'm glad your bike runs good, and refinement is a GOOD thing in most areas. The '02 IMHO will definitely be the better bike in stock form at the strip. When I said that I hoped the '02 was all that and more I meant it, and here is more proof of that. Laidover's bike is currently stock with the exception of the 17t front, and a VERY LOUD D&D bolt-on can. I just got off the phone with him and he is going back to the dealership today if at all possible, and get his 12 back. Why you may ask? We talked about the whole situation and really wondered if for some reason the D&D bolt-on is hurting him? I ran a Muzzy Bolt-on on my 12 with absolutely no problems, the bike woke up very nicely in fact. He is going to get his bike back home, pull the D&D off and put the stock can back on to see what difference it makes. If he does this today he is supposed to call me later on tonight and give me the results. It will be rock stock with the exception of a 17t front, which should make it a little snappier. I hope it goes well, I'll post his findings as soon as I know something. I know you guys may think I was out to bash the new 12 but that was, and is not the case. I was just giving an honest impression of the bike I rode. It fell way short of my expectations and I was bummed about it. I hope that laidover's bike runs like it should when he switches cans tonight. Because like I said, I envisioned one of those Candy Blue 12s beside little red in the future.
I know after riding an '02 that for me it'd have to have bar risers or heli-bars, and some preload cranked into that rear spring. Those are easy things to do though.
____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
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posted April 29, 2002 11:10 AM
Hey Bart..... You know I ain't dogging your bike bro. Read my post above. Do you trust me enough to take your bike for a spin at DG3 ???? Honestly, I figure you'd like to see it go by you at say 120 mph or so with the frontend pointed skyward. Seriously I do want to ride another one and won't thrash it or anything. I would never want to tear up a brother's scoot. I'll give you my bike keys, truck keys and both my platinum cards to hold. Would you consider it??? I know I'm putting you on the spot, but man I wanted more out of the '02. You could be the man that allows me to see the light. Think of the honor in that. I will tell you now though, I'm gonna wheelie it(or I think I am ) if you let me ride it. Hey it's Kaw it can handle it. If something were to happen I wouldn't leave you holding the bag anyways. Think about it and let me know.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted April 29, 2002 01:22 PM
Damn Ninjabitch! You've now pissed off all the 02 owners! I've never ridden an 02 so I can't say.I doubt a stock 02 will handle better than a 00 with modified suspension.I guess they did improve it in some ways.Just not the ways I would have liked (lighter weight&more Hp).a more flexible frame and heavier crank is not an improvement in my book. Althought for everyday street riding maybe it is a better bike???
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways- Body thoroughly used up, totally worn out...Screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride !!!"
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posted April 29, 2002 01:39 PM
No I haven't.... Harry, you know it wasn't my intent to piss anyone off. I am anxious to see how laidover's bike responds to changing cans. I hope it improves it.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted April 29, 2002 03:54 PM
Maybe Ninjaman,
I personally did not take your account of the 02 ride as an attack, there are many boeard memebers who are both better at riding and also tech. explanation of data. I just love riding. Furthermore the one thing that has kept me involved in this boeard is the people the memebers. I find this board unlike anyothers stays closer to the facts then any other...
NOW>>>
The guest ride ??? Maybe if I am in a good mood.
I am not one those people that are that attached to bike's dot get me wrong I love riding and don't EVER see myself without a bike but if something happens to it you get another.
I would probally not have a problem with you riding with the understanding it is not yours and I don't so whelies a 120 not the best use of your equipement.
Can't wait to see you at the Gap.
Bart
____________
Be fast and Be safe
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Posts: 4767
posted April 29, 2002 04:40 PM
Good Deal Bart..... Hey man I'm ready to see you too. This time I want you to keep the bike shinny side up!!!! No wait THAT'S AN ORDER !!!! I had a message on my machine from laidover when I got back in the house a few minutes ago. He said to call him, so hopefully he'll have good news.
Man you don't have to let me ride your bike if it makes you nervous, I totally understand. Now about those triple digit wheelies..................... ____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
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posted April 29, 2002 07:28 PM
Ok, here's the deal on laidover's bike.... He put the stock can back on and all is well. He and I talked and he said it was the beast that it should hae been all along. He said it wheelies effortlessly now, and that's a good thing. He purchased the bike and put around 400 miles on it with the stock can, but never took it up much over 4k while breaking it in. He really never wound the bike up until he put the D&D on it. Obviously the D&D hurt it by leaning out, it didn't smell rich, or blow any gas smoke when we rode a couple of weekends ago.
He and I talked today and I told him that the '02 guys were saying there bikes DID have the "hit" of the older ones and would wheelie just as easy. We geared his bike down the weekend we rode and I knew from experience that would help it lift the front wheel, the only mystery was what the D&D was actually doing for him. So he decided to go get his bike from the dealership where he had taken it, and bring it back home and put the stock can on. He told me it felt like it picked up 25bhp and was happy as a pig in shit with how the bike ran now. I'm glad, and I hope to get a ride on it soon. We're gonna try and hook up this weekend and square them off again and see how his bike does up beside mine. He says he feels like he can hang with me until we get into the extreme upper triple digits and I have no reason to doubt him. He's an honest guy, and I figure they will be as close as he says. He's flogged my bike and knows what it's all about, so he should have a good idea of how it will shape up.
I guess sometime in the future there may very well be a Candy Blue 12R beside little red in the garage.
I just knew when I rode it the bike didn't have the "get up and go" a 160+ bhp bike should have. Now I know why. It's interesting that a bolt-on can actually hurt the bike that bad. He and I are really intrigued by that. But now he knows what it's all about, said it was a bad MF for sure. I even think he's gonna keep it now.
I just can't wait to ride it. It's now completely stock other than the 17t front sprocket. I believe what laidover has said, and I think when I ride his bike this weekend I'll be as impressed as he says I will.
So Bart you don't have to worry about me riding 120 mph wheelies on your bike in May. LOL Laidover won't mind me doing it at all on his bike, and I don't care if he does it on mine. I have faith in him and his riding abilities. You don't make several back to back high speed runs like we did a couple of weeks ago and not have faith in each other.
I'm glad it all panned out for him, he really is excited about the bike now. I am too, and guys I'm sorry if I ruffled any feathers. I was only speaking from my experiences. Who'd have thought a bolt-on can would kill a bike??????? The Muzzy bolt-on I ran picked up my bike, so I figured the D&D helped his, but that wasn't the case. I'll post more after I get a chance to ride it.
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posted April 30, 2002 03:08 AM
No problem..... No problem swft, I hope the weather holds out so laidover and I can hook up sometime this weekend. I'll be able to post more about how the bike DOES run. I knew all along it didn't pull like I thought it should have, that's why I said the things I said about it. Words like soft, and docile was how it felt.I just wasn't real impressed. I was assured last night that this isn't the case anymore.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted April 30, 2002 10:09 AM
My Thoughts Again Ninjaman,
I picked mine up yesterday evening.
With a Hindle, PC3r, K&n, bonniebox etc...
This bike in race tirm is f*cking unreal.
I just can't say anything further.
Bart
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posted April 30, 2002 11:30 AM
Hey Bart....
quote:Ninjaman,
I picked mine up yesterday evening.
With a Hindle, PC3r, K&n, bonniebox etc...
This bike in race tirm is f*cking unreal.
I just can't say anything further.
Bart
Where did you get your PC3r from, I think laidover has already looked and may have been misinformed about them not being available yet. He's gonna run it with the stock can for now, but a full system, and PC3r is definitely in his future. Also, he is going to go one tooth up on the rear sprocket. That will make his bike 17/47, same as mine. It pretty much makes first gear useless if you are trying to hammer down on it, but boy oh boy does it wheelie with ease in the upper gears. Corner exits are mucho fast as well.
Sounds like you've got your bike ready for the Gap. Good deal, I'm ready to go NOW!!!!
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted May 01, 2002 05:52 AM
'02 comparison One reason the earlier model may seem easier to wheelie is the fact that it has a shorter wheelbase. If you want easier wheelies on the '02 model, get a larger rear sprocket and this will do 2 things. First, it will shorten the wheelbase to about the same as the earlier model making it easier to wheelie. Second, it will shorten the gearing making it easier to wheelie. I added a 17t front to my '02 and that actually lengthen the wheelbase. And my biggest problem is trying to hold the front end down. Afraid to roll on full throttle out of the turns because the front wheel skips along the pavement in the first four gears when at full throttle. Hard to steer when the front wheel isn't touching. Also, the new handlebar postition has a lot to do with it as well. When the bars were moved down in relation to the earlier models, it effectively put more rider weight towards the front. This makes it harder to wheelie and also makes it steer better. Kawasaki did this on purpose to improve the bikes handling. Kawasaki did this to help PREVENT wheelies. Try a set of helibars and it will move the riders weight back off the front a little. Remember though, wheelies are counterproductive to riding fast. Whether this is on the dragstrip or in the turns. Wheelies are for showing off and playing around. Yea, they are fun but don't confuse them with power and speed. I can show you a buch of 600's that wheelie like crazy, does this mean they have more power, I think not.
Another fact is that the '02 has just as much horsepower as the earlier models and MORE torque at lower RPMs. This increases performance, especially during roll ons and coming out of the corners at less than redline. If your seat of the pants feel tells you that the '02 doesn't "hit" as hard as the earlier model, its probably because it is not as peaky in its power delivery. Once again don't confuse "feel" with speed and acceleration. Try riding a two stroke that has a very peaky powerband. Like a cr500 dirtbike for example. When the power "hits", it feels like the fastest thing in the world. (try it if you have never riden one) Even though it feels like it "hits" harder than the 12, it sure the hell isn't as fast.
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posted May 01, 2002 06:07 AM
Yep workman,
Points well taken, and those are things that I have already hashed out a zillion times since I rode laidover's '02 model. He and I both have a lot of seat time on sportbikes and we have discussed these issues at great length. He intends on getting heli-bars for added comfort, and also to gear his bike 17/47. We know that there are several instances where wheelies can hurt you, but that's where you've got to exercise a little throttle control and get up over that tank. Also he and I are both big guys weighing in at over 270lbs., so the gearing doesn't "hurt" us as bad as it would a lighter guy. Although I admit that 1st gear on my bike is pretty much useless other than to get the bike rolling. If you try to roll into it in any fashion it will come up in a violent manner.
The problem with the D&D has been eliminated, and now the bike is performing to his liking. If everything goes as planned I'll get to ride his bike Sunday and see what an '02 is really about.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted May 01, 2002 06:35 AM
PCIIIR Ninjaman,
I have a guy in Elgin IL that soes all the work on my bike, he tells me what to do performance wise and I do dicided what so do for looks.
I do not do any work what at all on my bike so the I really can't apperciate the blood swet and tears that it takes to get things right.
I just write the checks.
Bart
____________
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posted May 01, 2002 07:19 AM
JUST WRITE THE CHECKS!!!!!!!! I hear you Bart, it does take a lot of dedication to get things "Right" most of the time. But hey writing checks can be a bitch too, especially if your a broke MF like me. If you lived close to me I'd be the guy that provided all the free labor on your bike, of course I'd have to test ride it after I wrenched on it.
I actually hated the fact that I sent my forks off to GMD Computrack to be upgraded. Mostly because I wasn't doing the actual work. That is the one and only modification that has been done to my bike that I didn't do. Other than that nobody has touched anything on my bike, I do take some pride in that, I even did the tank recall myself. I'm just too picky, plus I actually enjoy working on bikes, atleast when things go right I do. ____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted May 01, 2002 08:37 AM
aftermarket exhaust Just so you would know, if you add an aftermarket exhaust to the '02, it will run very RICH in places. Although it will have lean spots too, an aftermarket exhaust will definitely make it run rich. I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but take my word for it. I have done testing on my '02 with a very modified exhaust on both a dyno and with an on board air/fuel monitor with has a sensor built into the pipe. Also, Yosh had the same results when they put an '02 on a dyno to test their pipes. Keeping in mind all pipes and slipons will have slightly different characteristics, my exhaust changes made mine run rich below 3500RPMs. Very lean from 4000 to 4700RPMs. Very rich from 5000 to 7000RPMs. And then perfect from there on out. Just the opposite from what I expected. Most of this is caused by the air intake pressure sensor and how it is calibrated to the stock exhaust. It is a very long and detailed explaination of why the ECU reacts this way to exhaust changes, but it most certainly does. If you put an aftermarket exhaust on your bike and it negatively affect performance, don't automatically assume it is because it is running lean. Fuel injected bikes deliver fuel based on a totally different set of parameters than ones with carbs. If you know someone that put an exhaust on and it runs like shit, hook up an air/fuel sensor to it or take it to a dyno, you will be surprised by the results.
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posted May 01, 2002 09:02 AM
SOS Yeah, the '00s and '01s are the same way. Open up any map for the older bikes and you can see this. You have to add fuel here, take away fuel there. But once you get 'em right it's worth the hassel.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted May 01, 2002 07:04 PM
Workman I have read many of your threads and replys and you do speak the truth and I agree with you 100% they did change many things including the wheelbase but would the new throttle pulley and heavier crank effect the performance in question?
Just my 2 cents
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posted April 29, 2002 05:26 AM
to most of you. I just felt I should post my experiences on the '02 and don't want you '02 guys to be mad at me. I don't want ANYBODY to be mad at me, so please don't.
posted April 29, 2002 05:42 AM
posted April 29, 2002 06:13 AM
posted April 29, 2002 01:39 PM
posted May 01, 2002 07:04 PM
