jus1975
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted August 06, 2006 11:06 AM
BIKE WILL NOT START
I have a 2004 ZX-12 and I have changed the fuel pump relay, replaced the battery, replace the turn over switch, checked the ECU, junction box, fuses, relays, and kickstand switch. I cant see why it wll not start. The fuel pump will not run when the key is turned. But if you jump out the fuel pump relay the pump will work but the bike will not start. Engine will turn over but it will not start I have went through the manual and did every step I could think of. I have not yet checked the fuel pump but if I jump out the relay it will run, so doesn't that mean that the fuel pump is good. Hawever when you jump it out it will not stop running. What else could I check. I would like to ride sometime this year. I can't relie on the dump asses at the dealership. So I am my own mechanic.
  
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zxlnt
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted August 06, 2006 01:55 PM
What was the original problem to begin with..
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maximus
Needs a job
Posts: 4156
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posted August 06, 2006 04:08 PM
 Edited By: maximus on 6 Aug 2006 17:09
A relay works really simple you have the working side and the controlling side, the controling side gets power or ground once the key is on and the switch is engaged, the controlling controls the working side applying the power or the ground to the load, so see which element is missing. 1 terminal should have power or ground all the time, the other once the switch is engaged it should have ground which in returns enagages the relay and closes the contacts providing the power or the ground that goes staright to the fuel pump. so when you jump it you are bypassing the relay so right there see what is missing. Hope that helps. schematics will help see if you can down load from somewhere or if anyone here has them.
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jus1975
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted August 06, 2006 06:04 PM
The original problem was that it will not start. I believe I may have damaged something by jump starting when the battery drained. The fuel pump has two circuits. 1) the fuel pump itself and 2) the fuel reserve switch. I didn't have a test light to do the check for it. I will try in the morning when I get off work. The confusing part of the fuel pump is that reserve switch. I believe it may be bad.
Under normal conditions, when you turn the key you here the fuel pump prime and then stop. If you jump the relay out it will run but not stop. So the operation of the reserve switch may have something to do with that.
What are some of the components in the ignition system that may cause it not fire or maybe the injectors are not firing. That would explain why when you jump the relay the bike still will not start.
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted August 06, 2006 06:33 PM
Spark: pull a plug and ground threads out, with wire attached turn motor over. If no spark, concentrate on ignition system. make sure all coils are firing (or not firing) as this will narrow down the troubleshooting.
next check Compression. While you are diddling with the spark plugs dropa compression tester in and see what you get. I suspect less than 150-180 psi would be bad. Someone with a 12 manual should be able to get the exact figure
Fuel: Check exhaust for fuel smell. If none check fuel rail pressure. (pump on and off. if pressure never builds with pump running check the fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump itself for output. Check all fuses to ECU. Check all wires are tightly connected to ECU. If everything else checks out, your ECU may be bad. Make sure air filter isn't clogged or something stupid like that.
I don't believe jumpstarting a bike from a car will hurt the bike unless you hook leads up backwards or something equally daft. I've jumped several bikes and never hurt one.
Reserve switch shouldn't cause pump to quit.
Hopefully this will narrow things down a bit.
   
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted August 07, 2006 07:10 AM
Try to borrow a ecu form another bike.
or try your ecu on a known running bike.
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jus1975
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted August 07, 2006 08:17 AM
I left out that I have already replaced the ECU. I checked the pump by the manual it its fine. I didn't smell fuel when I tried to jump the fuel pump and start the bike and didn't notice a smell so maybe the injectors are not firing.
The bike only has 2000 easy miles on it so I know its not compression. It ran fine one day and then had trouble the next day(battery). So I jumped it and went home. The next day nothing. No fuel pump sound. Replaced relay, and still no fuel pump sound.
Today, I dropped the relay after checking to verify that it was good and it is now shot. So it will be a week for a new one.
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jus1975
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted August 07, 2006 08:19 AM
I have checked the ground and power sources for the ECU and they are correct, so the manual says replace the ECU. What are the chances of getting a defective ECU. I bet this will be hard to return.
Just delay after delay
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MAXIMUS
Needs a job
Posts: 4156
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posted August 07, 2006 10:28 AM
Test light doesnt cost much if you buy one at the autoparts, they cost alot off the snap on truck, that is one of the best tools you can have when your working with electrical problems.
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droid
Expert Class
Posts: 133
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posted August 07, 2006 11:59 AM
Edited By: droid on 7 Aug 2006 13:01
I disagree, with most modern electronic systems you must use a quality multimeter i have known many electronic items damaged by the simplest 1.5v continuity tester !!
Not only that but you can get false readings with a continuity tester a multi meter will always give you a readout so you can tell if you have the correct resistance.
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MAXIMUS
Needs a job
Posts: 4156
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posted August 07, 2006 03:48 PM
That be a Fluke 88 one of the best DVOM. But if you dont have $500.00 to spend on one then the next best thing wil be about $100.00, for something that might be accurate, for the problem he is having all he is checking is for power and ground at a relay,besides most all DVOM have a continuity and resistance function. he wont be back probing a solid state unit which in this circuit would be the ECU. He should be ok with the test light for testing a relay.
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jus1975
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted August 08, 2006 04:59 PM
Yeah I have checked the ECU with my multimeter. Its true you need both tools. I tend to use the mulitmeter more. But the manual called for a test light, which I used yesterday and the fuel pump passed. But I also stepped on the relay when I checked it and it is now shot. So thats another week till I get another one. But when I jump the fuel pump relay out the fuel pump works but not like it should. I'll explain. Under normal conditions, when youturn the key you can hear the fuel pump prime. When I jump the relay it will not stop priming and is a little louder. And while its running the bike still will not start. So is it the injectors not spraying or the ignition not firing. I believe its the injectors because I should smell gas. And I don't. I quess I can simply check the ignition by putting some starter fluid or gas (small amount) into the throttle bodies and see if it will fire. I may have some mulitple problems. While I was checking the fuel pump I took some readings with the meter to see if I got juice to the pump. I do but the pump is not working. But it passes the test in the manual. I still think it may be bad. Simply, I have power to the pump but the pump does not work. I have problem with making everything complicated first instead going for the easy solutions. I'll find out tomorrow if the ignition is working.
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted August 08, 2006 06:24 PM
if the pump is anything like the one on my bike it has an internal pressure switch that kills it once proper pressure has been achieved.
This may or may not cause it to fail to run when 12V is applied to it.
However the case you state that it runs without stopping is also odd since that would imply that something somewhere was just letting the fuel bypass and return to the tank. check if (when it is running) there is fuel flowing back into the tank (look through the cap)
it is miserable to try to troubleshoot over the internet.
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jus1975
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted August 08, 2006 08:57 PM
I agree that troubleshooting over the net is miserable but you guys have been extremely helpful and I am thankful for your help.
I didn't know that info about the fuel pump. I also didn't know that you can see the fuel returning to the tank though the cap. I'll try that tomorrow. But how does the fuel return. I only noticed the two vent lines and the main feed line.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted August 09, 2006 08:29 PM
I don't think the 2004 has a return line.
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted August 09, 2006 08:38 PM
Another shot in the dark.
Check the gap on the pickup on the right side of the crank.
If you want to check for fuel or fire just spray starter fluid in the air intake.
If it hits off you have a fuel problem. If it just spins you have a fire problem.
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MAXIMUS
Needs a job
Posts: 4156
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posted August 10, 2006 07:43 AM
You know it may sound stupid but the first thing you should do ifyou havent is check all those fuses. If those injectors are not firing, it simple to test,if you live in the united states go down to Harbor Frieght and you can pick up a set of noid lights, which connect to the wiring harness of the injectors and then crank that engine over, that light should be pulsing on and off if the power is being supplied to the injectors, thing is the noid light set only cost about $10 dollars. pretty cheap and you can keep them around and use them on all types of vehicles. when you jump the relay and the fuel pump doesnt stop priming its because you just bypassed the whole system your suppling 12 volts directly with no cut off, find some schematics, dude that is going to be the best way to diagnos this problem. good luck. by the way when you get done with this problem youll have a nice set of electrical tools, lol.
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jus1975
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted August 22, 2006 09:57 PM
I just tried spraying starter fluid and I dont have any spark. I pulled the the plug and tried grounding the plug and I don't have a spark. So one of the problems is no spark. And I still think I don't have any fuel. What do you think?
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted August 23, 2006 06:59 AM
As one person said, check the Fuses (I mean the Main Fuse in the Battery Tray!) You never said "HOW" you Jumped started the Bike? What did you hook up to?Have you checked the Main fuse? Remember the KISS Principal (KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID) It usually is something Simple!.
Even thought the bike turns over, check the Voltage in the battery
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted August 23, 2006 08:24 AM
Do you have tail lights?
The PC3 is powered by the tail light fuse. 
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jus1975
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted August 23, 2006 12:56 PM
All fuses are good but I always try the KISS method. All lights work. I jumped it off my truck while it was running and someone revved it up too. Its a new battery. I unhooked the PC# just in case it was causing a problem.
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jus1975
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted August 23, 2006 06:37 PM
Crankcase sensor checked out not so good. But I still dont think it will cause no fuel and no spark. Haven't found anything else yet. Would like to try a new wiring harness. Dealership parts guy doesn't know which harness on the microfiche is for my bike. I told you guys I have a dumb ass service department. I wouldn't let them work on a model of my bike.
Does anyone know if the wiring harness from a 2003 will work for a 2004 model. I saw one for sale on here.
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted August 24, 2006 03:20 PM
Edited By: speedgene on 24 Aug 2006 16:26
First, charge the bike battery and make sure it reads 12 volts plus.
If you jumped started your bike with a car (battery) engine running including revving it up, you my have fried the ECU? Never jump start an electronic type motorcycle off of a running car battery. Use the car's battery alone.
You'll need to hot wire (pressurize) the fuel pump, then start the bike as the fuel pump is making noise, and see if the engine starts? Pull the f-pump jumper wires if the bike starts (to shut it off)?
If the bike starts, it could be fuel pump relay related since bypassing the relay started the bike? If it's spark related, and does not start, then the ECU may not only have shut itself down, but the fuel pump, and spark as well?.... damn net answers!
Edit: Tip over switch disconnected, hanging sideways, ect.?
____________
E-tard
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted August 25, 2006 07:22 AM
Edited By: VincentHill on 25 Aug 2006 08:25
Exactly where are you located?
Even if they are dummies at the Dealer, your bike is under warranty (You did get the extended warranty) and they have to fix it and make it run. If they cannot, then either they or you can call Kawasaki and a person will have to look at the bike and fix it!
Maybe we can find a place close to you that has better service? Is that Roanoke "Virginia"??
There are many good dealers in Virginia even if you have to drive a few miles! From one side of the state to the other is 200 Max and you are about from Richmond (Not to mention Morth Carolina) so let us talk!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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jus1975
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted August 25, 2006 10:54 AM
I have a new battery full charged, new ECU, New relays, new tip over switch. I did check the crank sensor it is reading bad, so that could explain the lack of spark. I think something may have burned up in the harness. So I am going to try a new main harness and crank sensor. Hopefully I can find a harness from a salvage yard. The only one I have found used does not have one ECU plug.
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