ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted June 30, 2007 07:51 AM
So Supra, for the record, you got your ECU back.
Have you reinstalled it on the bike yet?
Does the bike run?
Did you notice any difference in first gear?
I'm 99% sure this whole idea works, but as I said, for the record It would be nice to have confirmation that you can erase the ECU's map, reflash it, stick it back in the bike and it runs (provided of course you don't mess up the map too much)
   
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rgeorge
Expert Class
Posts: 220
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posted June 30, 2007 10:16 AM
I would prefer cmHg because we already have a chart for it in the shop manual.
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted July 01, 2007 06:49 AM
My bike is still in the shop getting the fairings replaced... But yes I got it back and i'm sure its in perfect working order..
When I get back after the 4th of July I'll take it to the shop fired it up and confirm that it works 
Sorry for the delay.. my biggest problem is uploading the maps into Enginuity.. I even had my little brother who is pretty good with them help me...
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted July 05, 2007 06:20 AM
Supra and entropy, this should clarify some of my original findings......
All information in this test was obtained from a digital volt meter paralleled with the Inlet Air Pressure Sensor, page 2-63 in the Kawasaki Service Manual and a DJ 250 Dynometer.
Dyno Day Voltage Readings;
HOME/GARAGE 3.54 vdc = 28.92 in./14.206 psi. (ambient)
DYNO ROOM 3.52 vdc = 28.73 in./14.109 psi. (ambient)
*note: .02 drop due to elevation increase.
Idle on Dyno 2.75 vdc = 21.12 in./10.3745 psi.(1200 RPM)
*note: every .01 vdc = .0485 psi.
R.P.M./W.O.T.
2000 " 3.51/ = 14.106 p.s.i.
4000 " 3.49/ = 13.964 "
6000 " 3.46/ = 13.8185 "
8000 " 3.40/= 13.5275 "
10000 " 3.35/ = 13.285 "
11000 " 3.34/= 13.2365 "
The stock snorkel on the road at any speed above 40 mph at W.O.T. voltage always comes within .01 vdc of ambient but never above(at any speed). This indicates a "BOOST" of .824 p.s.i. over static (dyno readings).
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted July 05, 2007 06:47 PM
does the ram air pressure map match this data?
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted July 05, 2007 07:24 PM
BTW......My 12 is a A1
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 07, 2007 06:02 AM
Friday I received Entropy's spare 2000 A1 ECU to modify and map. I was successful in notching it without cutting into the circuit board like my first A1 attempt shown upthread.
See, not a scratch on it.
I hooked it up to the BDM port adapter and it fired right up like all the rest. I've downloaded all the software / maps. I will look at it and write up a preliminary Enginuity definition some time this weekend. (The mail man also brought me a new set of Pilot Powers yesterday that I had mounted up. I need to sneak out while its still early and scuff them in. Can't have people see me driving around with those huge ass chicken strips on my tires  )
It will be interesting to see how the original A1 map compares with the subsequent versions.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted July 07, 2007 06:52 AM
I'm waiting with anticipation. I too have a second 2000 ECU.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted July 07, 2007 08:12 AM
ALLRIGHT, RR!!!!!!!
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 07, 2007 12:50 PM
 Edited By: ridgeracer on 7 Jul 2007 13:53
Well I finished a preliminary definition for the -A1 map. Found some interesting things.
First the -A1 and -A2 ignition maps are exactly the same, byte for byte.
The throttle / rpm map data between the -A1 and -A2 is different in that the software must use a different formula, i.e. the data points are apples and oranges, you can't compare them straight across. But if you reduce the image to just the colorized range you can visually see they are pretty close to identical.
The most interesting map is the Manifold pressure / RPM. first it extends the RPM to ~ 12,350. However all the above redline rows all use the same. But is there potential there? The other thing is the X axis or manifold pressure has more resolution at the high end; The later models use approx -1, 0 +1 cmHg while the -A1 map is -1, -.5, 0 +.5, +1 cmHg
You can't compare these maps straight across in Enginuity either because of the different axis values. But if you line up the rpm and look at in detail it appears the A1 values are exactly half the A2 values
The foreground is A1, the background A2. If you compare the 1 cmHg columns you get:
A1=81,A2=162
A1=79,A2=158
A1=77,A1=154
and so on. A large portion of the map exactly fits if you double the value of the A1. Well if you do that you see that while the A1 runs a little leaner in the midrange it runs richer in the upper third of rpm. The problem is on the A2 map you can only go to 255. (its only an 8bit number 0-255). So in the A1 map where it says 131 which would be 262 on the A2 map but it only goes to 255.
I always thought those 255s in that map were strange. Usually you set up a table like that you give it some margin. Almost makes me wonder, did someone screw up. When they messed around with the program and somewhere they changed the formula in the code that needed the map values to double did someone just run the old map through some software and say all i need to do is double the value of the data and then not actually check the resulting map and realize that it had gone out of range and peaked at 255?
Anyway, here is a link to the new definition zip file including all three maps;
69US-Map.bin is 21175-1069 or -A1 ECU
79US-map.bin is 21175-1079 or -A2 ECU
89US-map.bin is 21175-1089 or -B1/B2 ECU
don't forget to go into the ECU definitions manager in Enginuity and remove your old definition and add the new zzr_defs_004.xml included in the zip.
http://www.bikeland.info/ecu/zzr_defs_004_with_maps.zip
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tuusinii
Pro
Posts: 1031
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posted July 08, 2007 03:27 AM
Entropy - Do You have history of that '00 ECU because there were different ECU's back then. For example my ECU was changed to the High Altitude ECU, because of poor running on on the Alps. I also noticed that it made the engine smoother also in sea level. Was the ECU Entropy sent from a bike or has it been bought afterwards from KHI? And if from abike how early it was (VIN)? Wish that they hadn't take my original ECU when I had the swap made so we could se what was in there...
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 08, 2007 04:46 AM
It was a back up unit he purchased in Jan / 2007. The complete unit ID is: (green and silver sticker)
21175-1069
112100-0510
TBCF04
K
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted July 08, 2007 05:39 AM
RR,
I have Enginuity displaying the A1 maps to you!!!
Now I have to start doing my homework, and re-read your thread start to finish.
But I guess the 1st thing i'd like to do is increase the rev-limit to 12500 or so.
Is that possible?
How is the rev limited??
(if i missed that higher in this thread; don't answer. Call me the slacker i am, and i'll start doing my homework) 
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted July 08, 2007 10:28 AM
Ok let me get this straight RR.. The ram air map goes to 12,349 rpms But the fuel and ignition is cut off at 11,749... In 2000 Kawasaki's independent test ran 190.8 and the "bike stopped accelerating 700 rpm before the limiter".... That sounds like a RESTRICTION TO ME...The easiest way to slow a bike down in to stop the air from coming into it.. I think you found something RR...
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted July 08, 2007 10:47 AM
Don't think they missed up RR.. it was obvoiusly done on purpose
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 08, 2007 11:07 AM
Edited By: ridgeracer on 8 Jul 2007 12:15
I have yet to find a hard rev limit in the software. As soon as I identified the RPM variable I searched for every instance in hopes of finding a section of code that compares it some number in the map and then takes an action to limit the engine if it is exceeded. So far I have not found it. That doesn't mean it is not there.
Then looking at the ignition maps I began to wonder if the maps themselves were the limit. If you look at the 11,761 rpm row of the ignition maps you see they suddenly retard the ignition. The way the map works as I discussed upthread:
quote:
Well if the Rev Limit is set to 11,600 rpm then the above map would start to retard the timing as RPMs approched 11,719. The maps themselves may be part of the limiting mechanism.
BTW It is not 36 from 11328 to 11718 and then suddenly jumps to 32.5 at 11719. Actually the software averages out the map values. For example if a map reads say 20 at 2000 and 28 at 3000 and the actual RPMs are 2250 then then the map will return 22.
The difference between 2000 and 3000 is a 1000 and 2250 less the lower value is 250 and 250/1000 = 1/4. The difference between 20 and 28 is 8 and 1/4 of 8 is 2 so it would return the lower value plus 2 or 22.
Halfway between the last two rpm rows 11329 and 11719 is 11565. So in other words half way between a working ignition time and a not working time is pretty close to the observed red line. I wonder if you could extend the redline by extending the ignition maps?
So how would you do this? Well I've mentioned it before, but some of you many not have caught it , that in addition to editing the map values you can edit the map axis as well. In other words you can edit the value that RPM is compared to to find a map value. Now the ignition maps are pretty consistent from around 7000 rpm and up.
If it were me, I would add 900 rpm to the last two RPM entries so the mid way point between the last two rows would be 12,465. Unfortunately the highest rpm value the map can support is 12, 545. The value is stored as a 16 bit number between 0-65535. Enginuity converts it to RPM so its more readable then coverts it back to 16 bit when it writes it two the map. The highest possible value 65,535 converts to 12,545 so thats the limit. I would try 12,500 and 12,300 which would give you a redline somewhere around 12,400.
Of course this is just a theory. There may be other limits in the code. I like the map limit idea. It means the restriction would be gradual, not harsh like shutting down half the coils or something like that. I had an old bike with mechanical advance and the rusted stuck. The bike would fine right up to about 4500 then plateau.
Of course the only way to tell for sure would be to make the changes and try it. Entropy, I could make those changes to your ECU before I send it back to you.
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 08, 2007 11:14 AM
Supra, I think the top speed limit and the base engine redline are two different things. I think the the top speed limit involves gear setting and the speed sensor and was basically piggybacked onto the basic engine package.
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Dragonknee
Novice Class
Posts: 61
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posted July 08, 2007 11:48 AM
I think that we all need to get a donated 12 to ridgeracer...somewhere out there is a donor bike that he can work all his magic on and keep to ride after words....that would be good.... any givers?
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 08, 2007 02:36 PM
Thanks for the thinking of me Dragonknee.
Of course you could just drive that pretty blue ZX-12 of yours over to my house and let me have my way with it. It would only take three or four hours to rip out your ECU, modifiy it, reflash it with the modified coil map and then take it to the Ridge road and red line it in first gear to see if the speed went up 5 mph.
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted July 08, 2007 04:36 PM
Actually RR I was thinking of sending my ecu back in the near future.. The 2000 ECU has more measuring points in the ram air graph as well as a higher rev limit value which is 12,349.. Why make a ram air correction map higher than the ignition and fuel map? Some bike in the design of this bike was revved this high.. Id'e like the ram air map to match the ignition and fuel maps.
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted July 08, 2007 04:42 PM
If memory serves me correctly there was an earlier ecu with a strange part number on it. It proceeded the 21175-1069.. Does anybody have one?
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 10, 2007 12:18 PM
It seems that the consensus over at Enginuity.org is that just changing the RPM of the main ignition map will not remove the RPM limit. They seem to feel that the last row is retarded to reduce torque in anticipation of hitting the hard limit so there isn't such a harsh, sudden reduction in power.
So I'll guess I'll keep looking for the elusive RPM limit. They gave me some clues. I guess in most ECUs there is a table of min/max limit values for instance turning on the limit at 11,600 but not turning it off till 11,500 to prevent it bouncing on and off too rapidly.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted July 10, 2007 12:48 PM
Yes indeed, please keep looking for that "elusive rpm limit"!!!
Can bike ECU's be that different from cars?? how do cars do it??
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted July 10, 2007 02:37 PM
I guess the rev limit is found somewhere in the code.. In the 1069 ECU the Ram Air Map goes to 12,349 but the ignition and fuel go to 11719.. Of course we could try to change the rpm of the main ignition map.. why wouldn't it work?
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted July 11, 2007 05:41 AM
I think I hit pay dirt Limiter wise.
I approached it from a different angle. Basically I looked for the effect then the cause. I found that the ignition subroutines that set up the next coil event test a bunch of 'flags' first and abort if any of the flags are true. (a flag is a single bit of memory that represents an on/off, true/false, yes/no etc condition)
Some of the flags are set by out of bounds sensor failures like a bad Throttle Position Sensor. One is set by the Vehicle Down Sensor. And two are set by exactly what the car guys at Enginuity.org told me to look for; Pairs of Hysteresis map data.
There are two values, a high and a low. Above the high the flag is set. Between the high and low there is no change; if its set it stays set, if its clear it stays clear. If it is below the low value the flag is cleared. These values are compared to a different crank speed value than the one used for the maps which is why I didn't find this earlier.
By my calculations the one flag is set in excess of 11,485 RPM
The other flag is set in excess of 10,818 RPM, but that test is only run if some other conditions apply that I haven't traced out yet but has something to do with gear setting. Some of you may recognize that number. I do from my days designing a speed derestricter. Its the engine rpm with stock tires and gearing when the bike is in 6th gear and going 187 mph
I was a little concerned when my calculations on the first number came out to 11,485 and not 11,600 but finding that second number made me feel more confident. Also while 11,485 only works out to 199.459 on my top speed spreadsheet it is 1 kmH over the Project 320 goal.
BTW at first glance just shutting down the coils might seem like it would make for harsh limiter for rpm or top speed but these values are being tested at a fraction of one revolution. It may only not fire once every 4, 5, or 6th cylinder. It only needs to not fire enough to slow the crank revolutions down from 191.40 rotations per second to 191.27 rotations per second to start firing again and it can detect that amount of speed change in less than 90 degrees of rotation.
The above, so far, only applies to the B1/B2. I haven't had a chance to look for similar values in the A1, A2 yet.
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