zx23rr
Expert Class
Mahogany Bomber Pilot
Posts: 242
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posted November 22, 2006 10:55 PM
quote:
To RR:
Was able to find these ECU's that do exist in powersports pro search
21175-1064 must be a 2000
21175-1065, 2000?
21175-1066, 2000?
21175-1069 this is the common ecu for 2000's.
21175-1071 not sure what year but could be a 2000
21175-1079 which is the common part number for a 2001
21175-1082 not sure what year
21175-1084 not sure what year
21175-1089 which is common for the 02.
I ran all the number consecutive from 1063 which didn't exist all the way to 1093 which this particular search coulnd't find.. The 21175-1064 seems to be the first ecu made for this bike. I wonder if this is the same ecu Doug Meyer used when working on Gadson's Bike. I know he said that the engine internals were similar (in fact the production bike was in some ways better) but what about the ECU just a thought..??
supra
if memory serves, the 1065 is the UK box, 1069 is the US/Canadian box, the 1071 was the restricted France box. 1066 was the Aussie box. The 1064 was hard to get or the German and remain EU box. When I ordered the 1065 box is was on route, and then Kawasaki Japan(i say Japan because it was confirmed it had arrived in TO and was sent back to Japan) recalled it before it made it to the dealer. I had to wait an extra 6 weeks. fak. fak fak.......
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everytime man makes something idiot proof, God makes a better idiot............
  
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zx23rr
Expert Class
Mahogany Bomber Pilot
Posts: 242
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posted November 22, 2006 11:00 PM
PS - absolutely fantastic work and thread Ridgeracer. What I always found was that my ass-o-meter felt that 3 gear was the strongest of all the gears taking increasing wind resistance into account for the higher gears. It just felt that there was less pull in fourth, fifth, and sixth - like it was soft. Is there a reflection of this in the maps when comparing those gears at the same higher rpm - say above 8500...?
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted November 23, 2006 08:02 AM
I saw this and thought it might be of some use, but if it is not accept my apology for the
posting the link...Ive paved a wide road with good intensions 
http://www.i-hacked.com/content/view/178/45/
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12r1
Expert Class
Posts: 390
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posted November 23, 2006 10:09 AM
I've always felt that 6th may be THE gear, on my B model..
While cruising at 100+, and twistin' the throttle, it pulls least as hard as 4th. The speedo swings quickly upwards.Considering the wind resistance up there, I think it's plenty impressive. That kind of thrust, without the 100mph wind, should be a hoot in the lower gears? I can't wait to try grounding different gears, to see how it runs.
I'm very impressed at the detailed knowledge and effort being poured into this thread, much thanks.
jeff
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted November 23, 2006 03:55 PM
ok was the 1065 ecu stronger than you 1069? What would be your best guess
on the 1064
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted November 23, 2006 08:14 PM
quote:
I saw this and thought it might be of some use, but if it is not accept my apology for the
posting the link...Ive paved a wide road with good intensions
http://www.i-hacked.com/content/view/178/45/
I'm very familiar with that link....I wrote it. It is base off a thread I posted here back in th summer of '01
Of course when it was submitted it didn't have all the embedded advertising links and other edits. I don't think I will ever submit to i-hack again.
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Texas12R
Zone Head
Posts: 545
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posted November 24, 2006 07:03 AM
Thats why I apologized in advance. I have a tendency to be WAY behind on basicly everything.....Every community has someone like me though!
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted November 24, 2006 04:31 PM
Hey ZX23rr Why is the German ECU harder to get?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21893
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posted December 03, 2006 06:04 PM
 Edited By: fish_antlers on 3 Dec 2006 18:13
RR has lost his mind... please see this thread...
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=1&TID=28051&set_time=
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 03, 2006 06:19 PM
Edited By: shane661 on 3 Dec 2006 19:04
edit
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21893
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posted December 03, 2006 07:03 PM
Please follow the link... we've discovered that in an attempt to destroy this topic and hurt this community RR went to great lengths to damage the information in this thread and also replaced all image files with a paranoid JPG claiming he's banned from this site. (He IS NOT banned)...
We've removed the JPG he inserted throughout this thread, and instead moved it to the following topic for all to see.....
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=1&TID=28051&set_time=
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 04, 2006 12:30 PM
quote:
RR has lost his mind... please see this thread...
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=1&TID=28051&set_time=
...I didn't necessarily agree with all of RR political/religious views, but his technical savvy was agreeable and impressive...you may believe that RR lost his mind...i believe bikeland.org lost a great member/resource...I gotta give it to the man for sticking to his moral compass...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21893
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posted December 04, 2006 05:15 PM
Edited By: redelk on 6 Dec 2006 04:24
quote:
..I gotta give it to the man for sticking to his moral compass...
I'd agree with you, if that was the case... however in this particular situation there is no "moral" issue.. he was never banned and the entire thing is moot.
If you have any further comments, please put them in the other thread, as always this topic is reserved for technical discussion about the ECU.
Thanks
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 04, 2006 05:43 PM
...no problem...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted December 06, 2006 02:27 PM
I created a rudimentary ECU definition of the '02 ZX-12 for the Enginuity Map viewer/editor from Enginuity.org Here is a 3D image from the software.
You can view the map data and in the case of the 3D maps create a rotatable topo map image.
As I go thru the code I will update the definition so that the X and Y axis will show RPM, Throttle Postion, etc and the data will be in actual fuel amounts delivered. Right now it is just the raw data. Eventually I hope to use this software to modify and remap the ECUs
You can find the freeware viewer/editor and the ECU data files HERE
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blueford
Needs a job
Posts: 2984
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posted December 08, 2006 06:46 AM
Delighted to see you back Ridgey, true genius is hard to find on bike sites and I'm immensely relieved I wasn't the cause and believe me I also have problems with those nasty words, like the C-word .
I can only imagine how unfocusing that must be to a genius, you're amazing, btw love your above post, very colorful!
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted December 09, 2006 01:05 PM
I refined the map definition file for the Enginuity.org map viewer editor (See Map File Downloads for details )
I have identified which maps are fuel, ignition, etc and what the axis values are, RPM, throttle, Inlet Airpressure, etc. In the process I made some major discoveries...
First thing should jump out at you, besides that there is an individual map for each cylinder, is that there are two complete sets of maps, A & B. (A is the default).
So how does the ECU decide which map to use? It checks the COV3 input of the MAD port connector at power up to select which map to use. I had discovered this and posted it earlier in regards to some gear maps. It never occured to me that it would select different maps system wide.
This means that when we start reprograming the ECU you will be able to choose between two totally different maps at the flip of a switch. Before you NOS guys get all excited you have to turn the bike off and back on to switch maps. No realtime flick of the switch NOS map change, sorry  :
What about the stock bike? This is the jumper mentioned in the service manual that some model ECUs are supposed to have and others arn't. Of course the question you are all dying to have answered...is there some secret derestriction to be had by using the jumper? Well one of the cool features of Enginuity Map software is that it allows you to compare two maps against each other and display the differences.
The Ignition maps A vs B? No difference.
The Fuel maps, both throtlle/rpm and airpressure/rpm, A vs B? No difference.
A perfectly good dual map setup that is totally unused by the stock bike setup.
Another interesting thing. A special Ignition map for first gear only that overides both the A or B ignition map. This is the map shown above. See that big red zone between 3900 and 5500 rpm? That is not in the other maps. Now I'm assuming that these values are advance. Check me if I'm wrong but you advance the timing as you increase rpm. The data in the table increases with RPM so it must be advance.
Why would you over advance the timing in that limited rpm range for just the first third of throttle?
By the way did you notice that the first half of the map deals with just the first 10% of throttle travel? The bike idles at around 20% throttle voltage and half the map deals with 21% - 31% throttle. Explains the the non circular shape of the TPS pulley.
And the thing that amazed me, I don't why it would, but the Fuel and Air maps are different between cylinders. I can understand there would be diffrences but how would you tune such a map? Have a header pipe with 4 oxygen sensors, one in each pipe?
It explains why the MAD box makes you go through doing each cylinder.
BTW a note about the x and y axis boxes at the top and left of the maps. These values actually come from lookup tables in the map itself. Take the throttle for instance if you wanted less resolution in the lower throttle range and more up hi you could change these values in the table and they would be changed when you rewrote the map. Of course you would have to do a major change of the table itself. Not sure it would be worth it.
Also for all these maps the RPM is a guesstimate. I will eventually be able to calculate the engine speed down to a millisecond but until I measure and calculate the internal bus clock of the CPU its a rough guess. Same goes for the injector on time and the ignition advance value.
The crank speed number is a value between 0 and 65536. If the crank value is half that I call that 50% rpm and multiply it times 12,500. Why 12,500?
You can't see it in the map above (a little on the far right of the 3d map image)but the last two rpm values work out to 90.6% and 93.7%. All the way upto and including 90.6% the values steadily increase. Then at 93.7% they drop and are flat across the upper two thirds of throttle. Between these two must be redline.
It seems to me the best value would be one that gave you 92.15% at redline or in other words 108.5% of factory redline. Problem is I couldn't find any firm agreement online about what factory redline is. 10,750? 11,250? I know 10,200 is the limit in 6th gear because of the speed limit. So I went with 10,750 and therefore picked 12,500. Call it design redline.
Anyway have funning browsing through the data. If you find anything interesting let us know.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted December 10, 2006 12:20 AM
RR
Wow! you pulled all that outa the ECU???!!!
Kudos to you 
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This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted December 10, 2006 09:55 AM
Edited By: ridgeracer on 10 Dec 2006 09:56
Thanks, entropy.
I actually pulled the data back in June when I posted this...
I've only now reverse engineered the ECU software to a point where I know stuff like byte 0x1028B is the ignition table value in first gear at 21% throttle and 550 rpm. There is still a lot to do however. To be useful this data needs to be calibrated to some real world value. The Enginuity software allows you to input unit scaling formulas that allow you to display the data in some meaningful way. For instance all the ignition map units will eventually be in Degrees BTDC.
Right now I know the ECU takes the Ignition map value, lets call it M, and runs it through this formula to decide how long after the little nub on the timing wheel goes by the pickup to fire the coil:
[((( M * X ) / 128 ) + A + B + C + D + E + F + G + H - J - K ) * L ] + N - O
but I don't know what all those other values are. I'm sure many of them come from smaller 2D maps for things like coolant temperature etc.
Personal Note:
I have 'Day Job' work I need to finish before the Holidays, then the Holidays, then some travel plans after that so this project is on hold till at least the second week of January. I'll be checking in now and then if you have any questions.
Everyone have a safe and happy holiday.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21893
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posted December 10, 2006 10:07 AM
very cool information....
again... Blueford... please limit your comments in this topic strictly to the technical discussion at hand.
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted December 10, 2006 03:25 PM
Hey Ridge:
I was reading an article in the Motorcylist Magazine talking about the 02 ZX12r. 6th gear cut in 700 rpms before the limiter this is showing on the speedo not calculating speedometer error. So if the standard rev limiter is 11625 then the 6th gear limiter comes in at 10925 ( on 01-05 models) So setting the new value to 12500 is perfect because Y2K already did the calculations for rod, and bearing pressure..
supra
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted December 10, 2006 03:30 PM
Question:
Will the bike perform better putting the maximum igniton values from 3900 to 5500 all the way in the rpm band?
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zx23rr
Expert Class
Mahogany Bomber Pilot
Posts: 242
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posted December 11, 2006 08:09 AM
my guess no, it is there because of either emissions or tractability or both. Most inline 4' have a power hole in that rpm range. the timing adjust(advance) may help fill a power hole. That was the hole I filled with just that, more advance and fuel. especially in the 5-5200 range.
As for the 1064 box, I dont remember that was 6 years ago......
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted December 11, 2006 08:23 AM
I would have to disagree with you there. The ecu has WAY more throttle positions and rpm levels than the powercommander does. Also all zx12r's benefit from across the board ignition advance. Performance and emissions usually don't go hand in hand. Also keep in mind this is the first gear ignition map there is many more to come..
supra
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted December 11, 2006 09:51 AM
Edited By: ridgeracer on 11 Dec 2006 10:10
quote:
Also keep in mind this is the first gear ignition map there is many more to come..
Actually anyone who goes to Map File Downloads and downloads the files there can view and compare all 32 of the maps I have defined so far.
I felt this was a better solution than taking screenshots of all the maps and posting them. But these maps are typical.
Coil 1 map A: All the ignition maps, except the first gear one, are exactly the same as this one
This is a typical Throttle vs RPM Injector map. The maps are the same between A and B but vary slightly between cylinders.
This is typical Intake Air Pressure vs RPM Fuel map. Again the maps are the same between A and B but vary slightly between cylinders.
And here is a water temp map that enriches fuel when the bike is cold
Here is a comparison between the Injector 1 map and the Injector 2 map
If your more curious than that download the software.
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