redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted April 14, 2002 07:21 PM
So I guess the title of "Moderator"...
... isn't just an "honorary title" with little responsibility anymore, huh?
A couple of thoughts for one of the "Moderators"...
1. I think a "Vendor Forum" is a great idea. If there was such a forum, it would settle the concern over several "questionable" posts.
2. Doug (Spencer Cycle) said exactly what pisses me off the most!
"When we post direct products on sites we contact the site and ask for advertising rates or permission to do so, FIRST!! If we do not get a response after a couple of trys we go ahead and post.If we think the rates are to high then we do not post--it is a respect thing. But we would RATHER PAY and have PERMISSION rahter then post and get called out in front of the whole site,not the image we want as a company."
Other vendors, NO MATTER HOW BIG OR SMALL, know this. Every DAMN one of them. It's called "the cost of doing business". Just like direct mail and phonebook ads. If a vendor claimed "ignorance", they're just yanking your chain and have been enjoying a "free ride". Not only is it at the expense of Fish and frEEK, but more importantly, it's at the expense of the site's sponsors.
3. I believe that it would be in the best interest of the site, if the ADMINISTRATORS (not the moderators) and the site's advertisers get together and come to some consensus on what the guidelines are concerning non-sponsoring vendors hawking their wares on this site.
The membership may offer opinions on how it should be done if you wish, but the final word should be solely with those that have the most invested in this site. Namely... MONEY! The "policy", when created by those that PAY for this site, THAT'S IT! PERIOD!
The alternatives are simple. Everybody has to pay to become a "member" or we have no site, because our paying sponsors pulled out. It's just as basic and easy as that. IMHO.
4. As the board grows both in membership and features, the administrators need to make forum guidelines and procedures of the moderators to follow concerning posts that are either on the wrong forum or inaproperate of the site.
5. "General Discussion" forums are great and are the main reason why sites like these grow into what they are today. It might be getting close to the point in time where the forums will need to be more clearly defined or "specialized".
This is a tough one and I don't envy the administrators one bit. It boils down to what they will want the site and all of it's forums to be and it's "purpose" is. I don't have a clue on how to deal with this possibility and have no idea on how to address it.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
   
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted April 14, 2002 08:06 PM
 Edited By: dougmeyer on 14 Apr 2002 21:13
Doug R,
What I see isn't exactly what I think you implied. The way you describe it wouldn't wash though, because (as you know) we're pretty careful about identifying REAL dealers and if such a dealer bought stuff (however large a quantity) at actual dealer cost they'd have to lose money to re-sell it at or below that actual dealer's cost. As dumb as that is, we really couldn't stop them.
What I think Cycle Concepts is doing is offering some discount price (from retail) that they represent or call their "dealer pricing" to consumers. Obviously that couldn't really be their dealer's cost or of course they'd lose money .
Fish,
I think you're still missing my specific point. It is not the content I worry about. Let it be what it is. If stuff is said to suck and the content of the thread supports that opinion, so be it. But if the title says it sucks and the content says it doesn't, well then change the title to reflect that or at least indicate that there is a discussion to that effect.
It's not all that big a deal, it's just something I've noticed.
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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ROCKET J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted April 14, 2002 09:03 PM
Edited By: ROCKET J on 14 Apr 2002 22:48
What I meant ...
What I said about the locking a post and moving to the classified section, I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't move the sale and questions there, just that you should leave the post open for discussion with the person that is selling the item. It is no big deal.
On editing threads or titles, don't. It is censorship plain and simple. I know that it is a cardinal sin on this site to disagree with anybody that works for Muzzys but, that is how I feel. There is no slander or libel here, just people's opinions. If somebody has an agenda and wants to defame someone else's product, they will be exposed, in due time. We are adults here and don't need to be protected from ourselves. Doug Meyer I understand your concern, but if somebody says that your exhaust is crap, oh well, they can say that. The truth about how good your products are will be brought out by the numerous people who will post in your defense. Getting moderator protection against "this or that doesn't work" puts you on the same level as the Fitch Fuel Catalyst and other products of that ilk. Your stuff can stand on its own merit, don't you think?
How about a separate (pay) classified site for vendors?
You know why people band together to get discount prices on parts? Aside from the fact that everybody has a little Gypsy inside them and they want the cheapest price, it is the industry and vendors themselves. Compared to the car industry (a close comparison), the motorcycle factory and aftermarket parts system might as well be run by the Mafia. There are just a few "distributors" that strangle the entire industry. Parts Unlimited, Tucker Rocky, KK, and the like are just middlemen there to fill their own coffers at the expense of everybody else, especially the buying public. It is only a convenience to the manufacturers who don't have to worry about billing and accounts receivable departments because they only sell to a couple of gigantic companies. They are getting worse in their selection process for dealers. I was in Springfield, Ohio last week and stopped by a little bike shop (parts and service) just to check out the place and visit. I was talking to the owner and he was telling me that none of the big guys would even give him a second look because he worked out of a garage behind his house. He had all the required stuff, permanent signage, phone book ad, the works, but because he didn't have a pretty new building and showroom, he was nothing to them. This guy has been in business for four years, is good at what he does, and it is his full time profession (in fact he works 10+ hour days just to keep his head above water). There are many parts that are the exact same thing as are used in the auto industry, yet cost many times as much; and the "there are so many more cars than bikes" (economies of scale) argument just doesn't hold water. These big middlemen take money out of your pocket whether you are a vendor, dealer, or consumer.
On the group buy thing, I would hope people would show loyalty to the companies that have stepped up and sponsored this site. Apparently, this group discount, comes at a large price ($2,000). If they are indeed giving dealer cost (no profit to them) it is probably because the big distributors give them a break at certain dollar amounts as well. Nobody stays in business for long giving away their product. As for getting a discount when spending a lot of money, that is S.O.P. and any dealer that wouldn't do that shouldn't get you business in the first place.
Rocket
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If I get any smarter, my head will explode!
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted April 14, 2002 10:44 PM
ooo...personal avatars. that i rather like. opinions on this idea? only thing concerns me is that now they are kinda similar for the most part. lends a pleasant consistency to the site. but it sure is limiting. wouldnt take more than a few hours to add tis feature. hmm...
as to the advertising/censorship(sorta) points brought up here, that is something fish & maddog & myself will have to sit down and talk about i believe. its a topic the little voice inside my head (well, one of them) was expecting to come up at some point. now, what's the chance we actually all get time to sit down for an hour at once? hasnt happened in several months :\
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SpencerCyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted April 15, 2002 12:49 AM
Yes PLEASE do add the Personal Avatars.
That would be nice!!
Doug
SpencerCycle.com
____________
Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted April 15, 2002 10:26 AM
Rocket,
You also are misunderstanding my comment. (This must be my fault for not making it clear). I am not at all concerned about the content of the thread and I would never suggest that it be altered in any way. If there are derogatory comments made about an individual or product (as they often are) that is everyone's right. My comment is limited to the TITLE of the thread and suggest that the title accurately portray the content of the discussion. Example:
Let's say I post a topic entitled "Rocket is a dickhead" and the subsequent thread reveals that in fact Rocket is NOT a dickhead at all but an absolutely wonderful guy that was misunderstood by one vocal poster. However, for weeks to come when anyone looks at the index all they see is "Rocket is a dickhead". Wouldn't that bother you just a little when the thread might be renamed "Rocket, Dickhead or Cool dude? "
Doug
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It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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hott-rodd
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted April 15, 2002 10:53 AM
I agree with doug, BUT ONLY if the original poster requested the change.
If doug post Rocket is a dickhead and i disagree then the
subject should stay. If Doug changes his mind then the subject could be changed at his request. Then it's not
censorship. It's a list feature.
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Rocket J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted April 15, 2002 02:07 PM
Fame is fleeting....
As long as they spell my name right, and for God sakes, capitalize Dickhead!
I think I know what you are saying Doug. If somebody is either an idiot, or has an agenda just to defame, then yes I have a problem with it. The application is where I have reservations. Does the moderator email the person and then give him x amount of days to respond before the post is changed or deleted? Should it be marked as such?
I would hate to turn something that concerns the "freedom" of motorcycling into yet another adventure in political correctness.
Rocket
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If I get any smarter, my head will explode!
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Ballisticzx12r
Zone Head
& Deals Gap Board Member
Posts: 940
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posted April 15, 2002 02:39 PM
Spell Check
That would be my only suggestion as an addation to the zone.
bart
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Be fast and Be safe
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted April 15, 2002 03:55 PM
I understand where Doug is coming from.
I wouldnt have a problem with fish "fixing" some thread titles. I've seen what doug is talking about several times.
Infact I wanted to change a title of a thread way, way back on labusas in july of 2000 or so but had no way to.
It was " Was Muzzys 199 MPH run bullshit?"
I started the thread and was asking the question because on the Dynojet 150 dynos that I was using at the time showed the rev limiter kicking in at like 194 or somthing.
The thread became a hugely popular thread for talking about good topics related to top speed and dynos etc and it stuck around for a long time. I think Ted G. showed us his program for speed calcs in that thread.
Anyway If I could have changed that title I would have so that it represented the contents better.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted April 15, 2002 08:22 PM
OK,
I'm comfortable everybody understands. I've made my point.
I'll leave it to the moderators.
A spellcheck might be nice as long as it's "selectable".
And, oh yeah, and while you're at it, would ya throw in the clearcoat?
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Red 12R Rocket
Novice Class
Posts: 59
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posted April 15, 2002 11:35 PM
Well now..... I have tried to stay quiet, but I must throw in my nickel's worth on this! Hopefully I won't ruffle too many feathers.
The way Red 12R Rocket (a.k.a RocketRacer) sees it, this IS a website that is accessed by anyone who has an Internet connection and can find it. Although sponsors do help fund this site, if conversations are restricted OR biased towards those companies that choose to advertise on and fund this site, then this site becomes no better than the "crappy" U.S. bike mags that many bitch about. It won't be long before many Internet users accessing this site discount what is written here because they will think that the posts are "bought and paid for" by the advertisers. I think you know what I mean!
Don't take me wrong - I'm all for supporting the companies that support this site, but if someone else has something I want at a price that I'm willing to pay (ie. BEAR ENGINEERING Velocity Stacks) I'll do business with them regardless of whether they support this site (or any other). I think most of the others on this site would probably do the same?
Muzzy's is an advertiser here and obviously they help to support this site. And surely almost everybody knows that Doug Meyer is a "key player" at Muzzy's. I'm glad that he posts on this site regularly, but I have to comment on something he has posted on this thread --- "Currently there is an active topic entitled "Han's test/does not work" . Well it might and it might not, that it doesn't is what the initial results by the tester showed but what if maybe somewhere later in the forum this title proves to be inaccurate?" Maybe this was just a bad thread for Doug to pick out? After it was established in that thread that the "Monster snorkel" didn't provide as much ram air pressurization as the stock snorkel in "real world" conditions he (Doug) stated "I'm not sure if these were my EXACT words some time ago, but.....
I told you so." People that know who Doug Meyer is and what company he works for really do tend to take his word for "The Gospel"! Yes, I realize that the title of that thread has changed a couple of times in the past few weeks, but didn't Doug himself imply that the "Monster snorkel" doesn't work any better than the stock snorkel? Kind of hard for him to go back and say maybe it does and maybe it doesn't! Get my drift?
Finally, I realize that my own current post is rather wordy, but maybe you could consider limiting the number of words (or characters) that RedElk is allowed to post. I know he is a great guy and helpful to the ZX-12R community, but I usually skip over a lot of his posts because they are just too damn long!!
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21896
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posted April 16, 2002 05:02 AM
I would like a CLEAR response from Redelk on his position regarding cencoring and editting the titles of threads. From the beginning I have trusted his judgement on the management of this forum, and I will continue to do so...
Regarding new features: freek... go to http://www.gonet.com ... scroll to the bottom of the screen and check out the very basic card abd other types of games they have online. That is my request.
I am sure that members would even be willing to pay some sort of subscription to be a part of that feature if it cost us extra cash to implement.
my $2 werth.
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Tearinitup
Expert Class
VP Code Monkey
Posts: 298
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posted April 16, 2002 06:47 AM
I would like to have the cookies for each forums new posts be separated. So that if I go look at the classifieds it doesn't lose all the "new" messages that I haven't looked at in bikeland. If that is possible.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted April 16, 2002 06:55 AM
So....
RocketRacer, does that mean I should have skip over your post and ignore it's content as well?
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21896
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posted April 16, 2002 07:14 AM
Redelk.... where's my answer?
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Red 12R Rocket
Novice Class
Posts: 59
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posted April 16, 2002 08:40 AM
quote:
RocketRacer, does that mean I should have skip over your post and ignore it's content as well?
I wouldn't blame you if you did!
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted April 16, 2002 10:26 AM
I believe....
ANYONE who takes the time to post, has something worth saying. Even if it's only worth is to the person posting it.
Fish, I'm really swamped at work. I get to it when I can.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21896
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posted April 16, 2002 12:19 PM
To be honest, the feature I would like to see added, would be the merging of this site into our "mega-project"... IMHO I would much rather concentrate our energy (and yours freek) into some real work so that we can get the site up and running... and so that people can begin contributing... once it is runing everything else will follow....
think about about our "amr.com" project a bit .... I'll do whateve graix u need 2 make it werk ... just email the little bitties you did just like when we made this site...
the werld is ready fer a little shake up... dont you think?
the summe ris coming and we could get some GREAT material for it from everyone....
nudge nudge...*kick* *kicks freek*.. get to werk magot!
oh yeah... and games! games!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted April 16, 2002 12:54 PM
Rocket Racer,
Man, you give me far too much credit for depth of thought. I completely forgot I had ever posted on the subject and my technical opinion is completely unrelated to this discussion. I chose the example to point out that the title may very well turn out to be a disservice to "Hans" because the title is written in the declarative and could easily incorrectly reflect the content. And, since the company I work for no competitive product there should be no hint of commercial influence.
Doug
____________
It's not that I think you're dumb, it's just that so much of what you know isn't true....
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Red 12R Rocket
Novice Class
Posts: 59
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posted April 16, 2002 01:13 PM
Understood. Don't pay me no never mind. I just be a ramblin' dumbass!
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Rocket J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted April 16, 2002 01:38 PM
If you add spellcheck....
Will it be the Queens English or that silly Canadian stuff. 
Rocket
____________
If I get any smarter, my head will explode!
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MadDog
Administrator
Posts: 97
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posted April 17, 2002 04:05 AM
To summarize to date...
Ideas/comments to date:
-----------------------
Index link at bottom of page [done]
Title "modding" of awkward topics [To Be Discussed by Admins]
- topic flagging for re-modding [To Be Discussed by Admins]
Personal Avatars (brought up since the original new server setup... and kept in the wings until further notice!) [To Be Discussed by Admins]
Spell Check (excellant idea which freek and myself have discussed before! We'll discuss some more now that ppl actually mention it and RocketJ... heck we may even be able to work in a few different dictionaries... depending on your locale. Yes we would make the spell checker selectable per msg - but this is a somewhat larger task than most of the other options requested...) [We'll See]
Clearcoat... ? Doug, that'll cost ya U know!  [$$$]
Segregated cookies... (excellant idea... it's ticked me off a good few times before too tearinitup! so if freek doesnt do something about it... I'll have to put my wading boots on and get in there after the boy!) [To Be Discussed by Admins]
Fish - shut up about the mega project boy! geez... holding the reigns on this kid is like trying to hold back a drag-ready ZX12R!
...and last but not least... games... which leads us to an obvious conclusion for those not familiar with fish he's definitely the kid around here! [We'll See Fish...]
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I wanted to make a quick comment on "non-sponsor advertising posts". We have always considered this a "high crime" of sorts. RedElk suggests formal procedures and rules be drawn up and made available to moderators - I think the site has grown enough now that we should indeed do this. It's the best thing to do.
Up until now, Fish, Freek and even myself have always kept one eye on things. When we notice a commercial entity taking advantage of our hospitality, but not supporting the sites existence [and thus also taking advantage of our kind sponsors who keep us going] - we typically respond by approaching the entity and offering them a sponsorship of the site, and initially hinting that advertising without sponsorship is not an accepted practice. Unfortunately that doesnt seem to always get the point across, and it sometimes takes several infractions, and requests from ourselves, to make them realise they will no longer be permitted to post company/product/etc. related materials unless they become a true sponsor.
By formalising a procedure set, we can involve the moderators as an additonal layer of eyeballs and controls - and hopefully slowdown the occurrence of non-sponsor promotional materials.
We will discuss the options of a vendor forum, as well as "initial product releases" - hopefully a meaningful conclusion will be drawn, and we can get on with things!
Cheers,
____________
|| MadDog ||
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted April 17, 2002 08:43 AM
separate "last viewed" tracking per forum!! yes yes YES!! damnit, i'm cummin over here i'v wanted that for ages. LAB did that as i remember. i will definitey do that one.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21896
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posted April 17, 2002 09:29 AM
I'm the kid around here, eh? get back to us when ya get a bike bitch!
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