trenace
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posted January 06, 2006 11:35 AM
 Edited By: trenace on 6 Jan 2006 11:43
For sure they should not have broken the law (if they did, which doesn't sound like it to me from the account) and if they did should be held accountable, no doubt.
I wasn't there but I am going to guess -- simply because it's a much more logical and plausible scenario, and isn't ruled out by the evidence -- that in fact there was information provided that this was the FBI but in the sensory overload of the entire experience, as well as maybe having just woken up being a factor, this was missed.
The FBI does tend to identify itself, and it is VERY possible for people to miss details in complex fast moving high stress situations.
Not saying it's proven they did, but it's also not proven they did not, and of the two, the first would be a much more likely thing -- missing hearing or seeing something vs. law enforcement failing to identify itself as such at all.
If they actually did not, then huge oversight and a screw-up on that point.
BTW, none of this has to do with the "Patriot Act," it could have happened the exact same way, and similar things in fact happened many times prior as well, just in the course of dealing with various armed and dangerous criminals that are believed to have fled into strangers' houses. Not new. Citing the Patriot Act and calling the entire country the USSR over this just does not follow.
Anyway, if you do not want cops coming into your home -- which is reasonable to not want without a warrant -- and there is no issue of hot pursuit, then get yourself a chain link lock and don't undo the chain, OR check your local laws and find out exactly what constitutes consent to entry and what does not. Opening the door to talk to them, or opening more than a given amount, or removing your hand from the door after opening or whatever, may in your locality very well comprise consent to enter, unless you've verified different. Something to be aware of.
  
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TedG
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posted January 06, 2006 11:48 AM
IMHO Bush and his minions would love this to be a police state reminiscent of the old Soviet Union, so they could push their religious and sick moral agenda on the rest of us. That is just my opinion. The cheerleader wants absolute power to move his corrupt concept of the way the world should be on everyone. Again JMHO.
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trenace
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posted January 06, 2006 11:53 AM
Ah, thanks for demonstrating, better than I could have myself, that your posts above were about having an axe to grind, rather than the facts of this case. It was obvious to me, but would have been much harder for a second person to demonstrate clearly than you just did yourself.
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Otis
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posted January 06, 2006 12:37 PM
quote:
Ah, thanks for demonstrating, better than I could have myself, that your posts above were about having an axe to grind, rather than the facts of this case. It was obvious to me, but would have been much harder for a second person to demonstrate clearly than you just did yourself.
I was just thinking the same thing. The second the word "minions" come out...lights out, the DU is in control. < click >
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kawasabi
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posted January 06, 2006 12:44 PM
In my best Nazi accent..
paypazz pleaze....
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TedG
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posted January 06, 2006 01:54 PM
quote:
Ah, thanks for demonstrating, better than I could have myself, that your posts above were about having an axe to grind, rather than the facts of this case. It was obvious to me, but would have been much harder for a second person to demonstrate clearly than you just did yourself.
No axe to grind, I am just presenting my opinion. I think the cheerleader's followers are a bunch is sick puppies that want to push their religious and sick morality on the rest of us. You always find a way of attacking the members of this board if they don't agree with you and no one else is entitled to their opinion.
As for the word minion, anyone who buys into the Bush rhetoric can hardly be described any other way, I mean Intelligent design??? Give us a break.
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slug
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posted January 06, 2006 03:11 PM
Edited By: slug on 6 Jan 2006 15:12
Trenace, you still 100% miss my point, i won't try any harder. My argument is not circular because it has a beginning and an end. The beginning is that we as citizens are protected from unlawful search and siezure by the Law of the Land. The middle part is that they had NO evidence that said homeowner was the perpetrator, and they brushed past her and went in anyway, without any evidence that the perpetrator was actually there. Ergo, no "hot pursuit" as you want to call it.
They knocked, she answered, they pointed guns at her, and barged in. That is breaking the law.
The end point? If you can answer ANY of the questions i won't repeat here from above, i'd love to have them. You assume facts not in evidence. My comments are based ENTIRELY on the available facts. Unless you want to call Mr Hill a bald-faced liar that is. If the available facts change, then fine, we can revise later. Until that point you have nothing to stand on except your own ASSUMPTIONS about the case at hand. Sorry, you make YOUR judgements based on assumptions and theories. Mine are based on the presented facts.
and what part of pointing a loaded firearm at someone is NOT threatening?!?
PLEASE let me know your cogent answer to that one....
   
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VincentHill
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posted January 06, 2006 04:07 PM
quote:
The FBI does tend to identify itself, and it is VERY possible for people to miss details in complex fast moving high stress situations.quote:
Are you some kind of Law Enforcement Person?
Please re-read what I first posted! They Beat on her door. SHe went to the Door! They Yelled at her to Open the door! She bent down to pick up the Mail in the way and they Yelled at her not to touch it! Ahe Opened the Door and that Yelled is ___ ___ There. SHe said I do not even know whop that is and No one is here! They then asked about who was Up stairs and she said no one My daughter lives there and is at work. They then brushed past her and went up the stairs and searched her apartment! They then searched her house and left and never let her leave the door! Then they left!
Are you saying that while she was bending down to pick up the mail they produced the ID and put it away while they were yelling at her not to touch the mail??
Are you saying that during all of that Yelling and Ordering her around that in the Middle of that she "MISSED" them producing the ID??
Last , during the Normal Eye Blinking they they had it out and back in and she was just too slow to see it! or maybe her hearing was not good enough to hear FBI but she could hear not to touch the mail and everything else??
If she had missed any orders do you think that the door on her house would still be in the Hinge?
SHe is a school Teacher of the 2nd grade for Christ Sakes. SHe has to be aware of everything or one of them will get lose and hurt themselves. SHe has only done this for about 20 Years!!
Trenace, can you face the reality that this is how things are and that they "SHOULD" not be that way and they they acted no different from Thugs except they did not take anything or shoot her. They had the time "AFTER" !!!!!! it was all over to answer her question. WHO ARE YOU!
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CrotchRocket
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posted January 06, 2006 07:45 PM
Sorry to hear about that Vince, I hope you get the answers your looking for!!!
Quote......
As Americans it is our duty to question government about the practices and policies of law enforcement......Ted, im glad you said that!!!
You have no idea I wish the people would really question the politicians, but the problem is nobody sticks together and when a situation is brought to light the politicians Jerk everyone off but what disapoints me is the majority of the people fall for it...Then when some of those that didn't fall for the JerkJob try to school those that did, the gulable people refuse to accept the fact and or prove if it's available...
It's a damn shame that most people are like ostridges with their head in the sand not doing anything about situations...It's not easy fighting the system by yourself, some people say yeah Fuck them and Fuck that and we have to do this and that, but when push comes to shove they get skeered  
It's like the Nike slogan...Just Do It !!!
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slug
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posted January 06, 2006 09:14 PM
sadly too many people believe their favorite party is wearing white linens when it comes to the questioning of government.
Some here (as evidenced in this thread even) apparently are perfectly content when one political party is in office to let gov do whatever, but let the OTHER (evil hated, etc) party get in office and EVERYTHING that party does is murder most foul, even though it is pretty much status quo, been done the same way for decades....
and heaven help you if you bring up similar SNAFU items from their beloved leader's term of office that are exactly the same thing ("THAT was different..")
face it, we all need a healthy interest in what our government is doing. sadly our government schools are doing their best to make sure our children are educated just enough to make a ballot choice, with no other real skills, knowledge, or idea of the workings of this government.
a sad testament to our public schools, a neighbor's kid, 7th grade, straight A's in "social" studies, and didn't know the significance of the years 1861-1865. The first guess was revolutionary war....
these are "A" students. Heaven help us with the ones that get "C"s or "D"s
The worst is the school these kids go to was ranked in the top 100 in the nation, public AND private....
A stupid or ignorant voter pool is a career politicians best ally. An uninformed and apathetic populace is the most rapid way to an oppressive and over-powered government. A populace so self-absorbed and so interested in the affairs of the hollywood elite is an abomination to freedom and liberty.
What's the easiest way to tell if someone is actually and thoughtfully criticising the government or public figure? If they actually acknowledge good things that person/government has done at some point. If you can't find any instance of someone praising certain things a person/group does, they are grinding an axe. No group or person is 100% pure evil, no matter who they are, UNLESS the person labeling as such has no intellectual honesty.
Frankly i don't care to deal with folks like that, regardless of their political leanings.
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VincentHill
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posted January 07, 2006 05:06 AM
Jay Walking is the Best part of Jay Leno. Specially when he finds a Teacher. They know nothing about anything!
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TedG
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posted January 07, 2006 06:23 PM
It seems the current administration won't be happy until they kill as many Americans as Bin Laden has. They used up the entire surplus and pissed away so much more. Then put their cronies in important government positions that they clearly weren't qualified for, Tried to force thinly disguised religious doctrine on our public schools. And even gone so far at to give up a government agent just because they didn't agree with her spouse. Corruption, lies, even treason is not beneath them. Law enforcement run amok under the veil of chasing terrorism to violate peoples rights. It is a sad time for America.
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speedgene
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posted January 08, 2006 12:44 AM
Edited By: speedgene on 8 Jan 2006 00:47
Checks and balances. Let me see?
OK, I'll take the Feds kicking in my door 24/7 then leave, and say "thanks citizen for making our work easier"....than to have theeeeeee.....
Telibums......kick in my door, armed, looking for my toothbrush, because "It's Too Western!" (NO LIE! search it).
I'll put up with all the greasy corruption that goes on in Washington 24/7.........
Than live in poverty under a (fill in the blank) regime that has no constitution at all.
I'll take Vincent's cousin's place any day of the week.....
Than loosing my toothbrush sooner than you think.
Yep.....checks and balances, checks and balances....that's my "PATRIOT ACT"!
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VincentHill
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posted January 08, 2006 05:59 AM
Speed Gene, the reason this country exists is because the people that started it Refused to allow just this type of thing. Look at this country History in the 1700's Taxes, Search and Seizures and no way to speak to anyone about it. You might as well live in China. We have people dying in other countries so they also will not have to put up with this either and you thow it away. Shame on you.
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slug
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posted January 08, 2006 12:27 PM
TedG youmake my point for me.
Thanks!
Last administration destroyed our military (i know, i was in it and experienced the destruction), bombed a country because of a BJ, exhibited EQUAL levels of cronyism in high-ranked officials, IGNORED terrorism threats altogether, gestapo style Janet Reno & her BATF, erected the intelligence barriers that likely led to the 9/11 being successful, gave china rocket technology that they never would have gotten,all in return for campaign contributions
attempted to institute an tax increase for all homeowners who owntheir homes outright "if someone next door has topay 1200 to rent/mortgage their home, and you don't because your house is paid for, you have an 'imputed' income of 14400 a year on top of your wages that the government will tax as income"
etc.
However, inthe interests of HONESTY i can also state the following about the previous administration and President Clinton:
Reduced the costs of federal government, (even if i don't agree with the how) implemented some welfare reforms, improved foreign relations with many nations, worked in a bit of a bipartisan fashion, incredible statesman and orator. We experienced an impressive technological boom (and later a bust, but that's life) and had decent economy with low unemployment rates (as low as 5% during that 8 year period)
There was not a 100% negative about the previous admin, nor do i have any problems acknowledging that. Unfortunately people like TedG have NOTHING but negative to say about current events, because they don't "like" the person in office. And as such nothing TedG says on a political topic that concerns criticising the current administration carries ANY weight whatsoever. Why? because he is a broken record, if Bush had anything to do with it, it must be evil wrong and illegal. There's no room in TedG's mind for anything but "bush sucks 100%"
No matter how successful the operations in Iraq are right now, they are wrong and immoral because TedG dislikes the president under whom these changes happened. Had they happened in 1998 (and i was there ready to go in 1998 to do my part, as part of the military then, stationed in thepersian gulf) he would have been fine with them. Funny thing is that *my* support of removing saddam hussein has nothing to do with what party is in office, or what the president's name is, or what party he belongs to. It didn't magically change 180 degrees after the 2000 elections like just about every other Democrat politician has.....
tedG: Not to be pickingon you, but you made it WAY too easy. Again, thanks for making my point for me.
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speedgene
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posted January 08, 2006 02:06 PM
I hear ya VincentHill. I hear everyone on this thread. Makes me proud. But I hear the sound of a different drummer. I read enough history to know empires live short lives. Ben and John's signature is what the west stands for. Lucky for them, the Muslims were too stupid to figure out how to float a camel to get to these shores. They waited for planes to be invented instead. If this empire expects to live a little longer, then sorry Ben and John, (my drum beats says  "we don't blame you for worrying about tea bags instead of toes." Add hands, and heads to that list while you're at it. The game has changed. If you can figure out a better plan to save this nation, then run for office. As shitty as our reps in gov are, (not off of them) I say tweak the FF's signature for preservation. You have to understand, these fanatics are growing, and have a "religious mission." China is a communist nation. No religions there. And they let you keep your hands, and feet too! Can't make knock-off's with stubbs now, can you?
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TedG
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posted January 08, 2006 09:23 PM
quote:
TedG youmake my point for me.
Thanks!
Last administration destroyed our military (i know, i was in it and experienced the destruction), bombed a country because of a BJ, exhibited EQUAL levels of cronyism in high-ranked officials, IGNORED terrorism threats altogether, gestapo style Janet Reno & her BATF, erected the intelligence barriers that likely led to the 9/11 being successful, gave china rocket technology that they never would have gotten,all in return for campaign contributions
attempted to institute an tax increase for all homeowners who owntheir homes outright "if someone next door has topay 1200 to rent/mortgage their home, and you don't because your house is paid for, you have an 'imputed' income of 14400 a year on top of your wages that the government will tax as income"
etc.
However, inthe interests of HONESTY i can also state the following about the previous administration and President Clinton:
Reduced the costs of federal government, (even if i don't agree with the how) implemented some welfare reforms, improved foreign relations with many nations, worked in a bit of a bipartisan fashion, incredible statesman and orator. We experienced an impressive technological boom (and later a bust, but that's life) and had decent economy with low unemployment rates (as low as 5% during that 8 year period)
There was not a 100% negative about the previous admin, nor do i have any problems acknowledging that. Unfortunately people like TedG have NOTHING but negative to say about current events, because they don't "like" the person in office. And as such nothing TedG says on a political topic that concerns criticising the current administration carries ANY weight whatsoever. Why? because he is a broken record, if Bush had anything to do with it, it must be evil wrong and illegal. There's no room in TedG's mind for anything but "bush sucks 100%"
No matter how successful the operations in Iraq are right now, they are wrong and immoral because TedG dislikes the president under whom these changes happened. Had they happened in 1998 (and i was there ready to go in 1998 to do my part, as part of the military then, stationed in thepersian gulf) he would have been fine with them. Funny thing is that *my* support of removing saddam hussein has nothing to do with what party is in office, or what the president's name is, or what party he belongs to. It didn't magically change 180 degrees after the 2000 elections like just about every other Democrat politician has.....
tedG: Not to be pickingon you, but you made it WAY too easy. Again, thanks for making my point for me.
Where did I talk about the previous administration? I guess maybe the surplus. I am not a Democrat, I am an embarrassed Republican. Do you think the military isn't being destroyed by sending our people into a meat grinder with absolutely no plan to take over a country after a rout? It they were so dangerious how come it took only 2 weeks to defeat them? It would take longer than to take over Philly.
So go on attack me instead of the morons in office, follow them blindly into the abyss. More power to you. Remember god wanted him to be president. Close your eyes and enjoy intelligent design,Don't forget to tune into the 700 club to get the latest from above. Cheers
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Ted
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slug
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posted January 09, 2006 04:11 AM
actually i wasn't attacking you, just your expression of only the negative, with nothing positive. read again, i never said you are an idiot (like you implied in your last post about me) nor did i make any other ocmments about 'personal' things.
i just made a point and you provided the proof for it is all.
thanks for playing!
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VincentHill
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posted January 09, 2006 04:25 AM
Maybe I need to Add this, but if 911 had happened during the time of Clinton and the same thing happened at my cousin's I would have posted the same thing. The Only diference is, I really do not think the Chances of it happening would have been as great! 100% with Bush admin and 75% with Clinton Admin. Still a high chance for it to happen but greater under the current admin.
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TedG
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posted January 09, 2006 08:22 AM
Well slug, I wish I could see something positive, seriously. To me Karl Rove is one of the sickest I have ever seen. I used to be a huge Cheney fan, but sadly not amy more. To me it really looks like the current admin is doing everything in its power to chip away at the individuals rights and personal freedom. They seem to be pushing the religious rights agenda on everyone. And I just can't see the good in sending over 2000 people to their death because of of an ill conceived post war plan.
As for something positive, the only thing I can think of is the fact that they left the Iraq war to the military and it was carried out beautifully. If only they had a real plan for afterward.
Also I apologize for my sarcasm, I meant it in a more general term.
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zx23rr
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posted January 12, 2006 08:00 AM
I had written a good 500 word essay, after reading it over for spelling, I decided to read it over again. I scared myself, and deleted it all.
This is what I ended up with - HELP!
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worm~hole
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posted January 12, 2006 03:54 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 12 Jan 2006 16:05
VincentHill...tell your cousin to file a complaint and demand an investigation of this event with the FBI and get the media involved with this inquiry if she likes...post the FBI's result of this investigtion verbatim...I think the report should include the whats, whys, and whens of the FBI during this incident including your cousin's actions...we can only hope that the FBI will print the truth...and that your cousin has been totally honest with her description of the event as it occurred...then and only then can we in the peanut gallery have an idea of what may have actually happened and have any intelligent opinions about the actual event...in the meantime we can 'what if' this thing to death and accomplish what?
...not not saying that you and your cousin are overreacting...I just find it hard to believe in this day and age when cops are under constant scrutiny that the FBI or any modern day cops would act like the thugs that some of our bikeland members want to portray them to be, and for these 'thug' cops not to face any consequences....cover up?....it happens infrequently, but they usually get found out...most cops don't want to end up in jail themselves...it just doesn't add up imho...
...and before any of you knucklehead flame me for siding with the cops no matter how they operate, read my post again....slowly....the indescriminent and malicious violation of a citizen's constitutional rights and unprofessional cops are serious matters that I don't take lightly...clear?
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who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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VincentHill
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posted January 12, 2006 08:22 PM
I understand Exactly what you are getting at and if it was me, it already would have been on National News. Even though she has friends that are Police (Like I do) she fears doing or saying anything because they can come back and do worse. Remember this is Toledo where a homless person was Stun Gunned 25 times until he died of a Heart attack and the ploice simply stated that he was in bad health to begin with. Right here in DC I have seen and filmed the police chaseing someone on foot and when caught by others then Hancuffed the Original police caught up and started kicking and beating them while on the ground. I had a good friend that was the Highest ranked person on the force not appointed and he said it was not "Worth" it because no one was killed! Like I said I have some very good friends that were best man at my wedding and me at theirs, but I would not give you .02 for most policemen!
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worm~hole
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posted January 13, 2006 05:01 AM
...true, there are the occassional thug-cop almost everywhere unfortunately...these people were thugs who somehow got by the psych-eval and interviews and became cops...its no wonder that you have your unfavorable view of cops in general...well, may I offer that its your unfortunate and unfair lost if you think all cops are like your thug pals...I beleive that for most cops its just a job that they do to the best of their abilities and with the expected professionalism...but to some cops its their freekin' identity cuz' they hide behind that 'authority' and they're just weak bastards otherwise...and this is coming from your's truely, a genuine cop....surprised?...there are more like me out there I'm sure who try to do a good job in spite of the hazards and bad public opinion....some are actually here at bikeland/smackhouse of all places!...humph...go figure!...
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stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted January 13, 2006 06:44 PM
I tried Googling the news to see if there was a case that made the news that fit the description and date, so as to maybe learn if a dangerous murderer had been caught in Toledo the next day or something.
Not that it would prove anything one way or the other, if there had been such a case in the news it could have been a different guy, or if absent, I'm sure there's a lot of serious crime or captures of bad criminals that doesn't make the newspapers.
Came up empty. Big issue of an FBI crackdown on child prostitution centered in Toledo at that time, but that doesn't appear likely related.
It does sound like good advice, being concerned about it and feeling that something could have been wrong here, to ask the FBI to explain themselves. Either they have a reason why they believed a criminal to be there so dangerous as to need their guns already out, maybe a murderer that had already killed people and they thought had gone to ground in your cousin's house while she was sleeping and unawares, in which case it might be reasonable to be glad they were on the job even though in this case it turns out their info was incorrect; or they had no basis to believe such a thing, in which case something is wrong and they need to know that people ARE checking. So a good move to ask either way.
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