aliveagain
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posted December 30, 2005 06:25 PM
supercharger on truck
I was wondering if anyone had any experience with a truck supercharger.My Avalanche pulls the trailer good enough on the highway,but when I have to start on a hill,I have to use 4 low.I would like a new diesel but financially its not feasable.I heard some of the superchargers give you a good down low grunting torque.I'ld like to know about do's and don'ts,longitivity,pros and cons.Will it make the truck just another money pit?
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jimzx9r
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posted December 30, 2005 10:44 PM
It will be a minimum of $5k to buy a decent one and get it on the truck, and you'll never get any of that money back if you ever try to sell it. If that's ok with you, I say go for it. You'll get around 80-100lb ft of torque down low with it. You just need to find a reputable shop in your area that can handle the install and back up their work. And it is a lot of work, I did an ATI procharger on an 02 trans am a while back and it took 20 hours.
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redelk
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posted December 30, 2005 11:04 PM
 Edited By: redelk on 30 Dec 2005 23:09
Since I too tow a "kinda big" trailer (24' / 8,000 lbs) and wish I had more torque from my Hemi. Money is an issue for me as well.
From what I can tell, the Avalanche 5.3 V8 puts out about 330 ft/lbs @ 4,000 RPM. It seems that the Radix supercharger is the most popular choice. They cost about $5,000 and bump your torque over 410 ft/lbs.
What I couldn't easily find is at what RPMs. If it is still around 4K, I don't think that is the kind of help your looking for. Even if you could get more torque at a lower RPM with tuning, IMHO, it probably isn't the route you'll want to go. I don't think a turbo would be the answer either.
Since your looking for something that is reliable, durable and realistically price, I got a completely different suggestion..... a GM crate motor. Like Ford and Mopar, GM offers a variety of fully assembled crate motors for all kinds of applications and they are amazingly cheap.... kinda.
GM has a crate motor specifically for towing. These motors are called "HT" crate engines that don't produce much more HP than your stock 5.3 (295 HP@5200 rpm), but make a lot more torque and at a lower RPM.
The 383 short block is rated at 325 hp @ 4500 rpm and 415 ft lbs. @ 3500 rpm. The "assembled" engine costs just under $4K, but you'll likely spend another $1K for belt pulley system, carb, rackets and so on.
The Chevy HT motor that got me going was the HT 502. Costing around $5200 (not counting intake, carb, and other stuff), this baby puts out 338 hp @ 4,500 rpm and a whopping 512 ft/lbs @ 2,850 rpm. Even if you have to sink over $6K in sticking it into your Avalanche, you can not match that kind of torque with any off the shelf supercharger.
The 8.1 engine that is an option on the '06 Avalanche 2500 only puts out 447 ft/lbs @ 3200 rpm. Of course, the Duramax diesel in the 2500/3500 trucks with an auto tranny put out 605 ft/lbs @ 1600 rpm, but wedging one of those into your Avalanche ain't that easy or practical. Not to mention what it would cost.
IMHO, the HT 502 is the most practical way to go for numerous reasons.
1. Instead of trying to squeeze more power out of a used motor (that has already spent time struggling under a load), you'll have a brand new GM motor that comes with a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty from GM.
2. You'll get much better MPG when towing with the crate motor than with a supercharger.
3. You'll even get better MPG when you NOT towing, since the motor isn't working half as hard.
4. Being a "official" GM motor (and nothing more), you might not recoop all the money you sunk into, but it sure as hell won't hurt your resale value and should get at least some of your money back on it.
My problem is not quite as bad as yours and part of my difficulties pulling the team trailer comes from having oversized tires with a 3.73. Those tires will be coming off soon and OEM sized LT265/70-17R (E load rated) will be going back on. The 35x12.50 tire on now drop my ratio to about 3.40 and kills any torque my Hemi might have with the 5 speed.
Hopefully, when the new tires go on, it should make a big improvement and I'll get some of that torque back. Even though the Hemi in my 2500 puts out 375 @ 4200 rpm, it makes 300 of those foot pounds at 1500 rpm. Sure, I wish I had ordered the truck with a 4.10 ratio ($50 option - would cost $$$$$ to swap now), I never imagined I'd be towing anything bigger than my 5x10 Wells Cargo. Getting the diesel engine option would have cost over $5500. The company wouldn't pay that chunk.
For now, the cold air intake and Flowmaster exhaust is about all I can do to try to improve the truck's towing performance. Oh yeah, and switching back to the smaller tires.
In your case, if your going to consider spending the money on a supercharger, I'd say you'd be better off spending another $1K to $K and get a crate motor. It would solve all your problems, cost less in the long run and last long enough to where there is actually a "long run".
Here's a link:
http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/120/products/120/338HP-502-HT-GM-Performance-Parts-Crate-Engine-Assembly.htm
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 31, 2005 03:56 AM
AA , I have a procharger on my ragtop SS. Its an 02 with the LS1 engine. If you are going the supercharger route I'd go with a centrifugal not a roots style. The install on my Camaro was very simple and straight forward. ATI makes a god kit with excelent instructions. I would buy the "tuner kit" and dont bother with the FMU setup. With the tuner kit you will need a set of injectors. About $300. And then you need to tune it. You can buy HP Tuners software to tune it, and then go to the dyno to dial in the Power Enrichment (Full throttle) mode. That can only be done on a chassis dyno with a wideband 02 etc. Or you can just have then tune it all. HP Tuners software is about $500 and a dyno session to just do the PE mode will run $175. A full tune on the dyno will be about $500. I would reccomend East Side Performance in Wallingford CT. to do the tuning. They are excelent tuners with the GM computers. They also use HP Tuners software.
On the other hand, the bigger engine isnt a bad idea also. But it would be much more work to put a 502 engine in the truck. Its a big block chevy not an LS1 spinoff like the 5.3.
So it would require some fabrication and a major retune of the computer with wireing mods etc. If you go the new engine route i'd stay with a version of the LS1 based engine. It will be a bolt in deal with much less total modifications in the end.
I wouldnt worry about longevity of the supercharged engine. The compression is low on the 5.3 and the engine is a very strong engine. Its no 4.6 ford engine. Those blow up at the drop of a hat with blowers on them. I've seen dozens and dozens of those come into my buddies shop completely destroyed, not even the blocks are good. Of course most mustang guys dont use a procharger either. They have either no intercoolers or the cheezy vortech intercooler that sucks. Under full boost in the summer on my SS (8psi) i see a intake air temp increase of from 1 degrees to 3 degrees F. , thats it. The coolers work excellent.
If you go the supercharger route, call Tbyrne motorsports for a supercharger kit price. They are about a grand cheeper on ATI kits than anyone else. Lucas/delphi Injectors are cheep from Racetronics. They supply the required flow and pressure data to properly size your injectors for your aplication. Most likely your combo will need 42lb. per hour injectors.
Call East Side performance and tell them what you want to do and they will help you. They are good guys to deal with and are VERY knowledgeable.
I just have to point out one thing, not to disagree with RedElk but if you require say 300 hp to pull your load up a given hill. Then is doesnt matter how you make that hp. As long as both engines are tuned properly then the supercharged engine will burn the same abount of fuel do make 300 hp. You will need 501 cfm of properly mixed air and fuel to make 300 hp no matter if its a honda vtech 4 cyl or a 502 BBC. Actually the 502 would have more internal frictional losses and the actual output to the real wheels would be less.
Oh, one other thing... the P1sc from ATI is a self contained self oiling unit. It uses 6 oz. of stnthetic oil for lubrication and doesnt share engine oil for lubrication. Thats a huge pluss for longevity. You just change the oil in the supercharger when you change the engine oil.
If you want to see my setup on the SS and or what HP Tuners software looks like let me know.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 31, 2005 04:02 AM
Oh, one other thing. The super charger wont help if the rpms are too low to make boost. So if you are at a stop light on a hill with a huge load you wont have the rpms to make much if any boost from a dead stop. The engine will need to get up to 2 grand or so. To remedy that you need a looser converter or lower rear end gear. The blower will be fine once you are moving.
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Y2KZX12R
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redelk
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posted December 31, 2005 05:31 AM
Y2K, it is a honor for you to disagree with me. Why? Because I'm guessing at best and in this case (as in many others), you know for a fact, due to experience.
With an LS1 engine being more of a drop in, plug and play, there appears to be not much of a gain over what you already have (320 hp @ 5800 rpm / 330 ft/lbs. @ 4400 rpm) and is kinda pricey (over $6K with ECU) for what little you get.
Thus that makes jomzx9r and Y2K's recommendation pretty well spot on (and mine mostly BS).
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 31, 2005 06:31 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 31 Dec 2005 06:33
Red, I wouldnt say BS. The 502 would be the best towing engine. Its just more work to get installed.
This 6.0 engine would be nice and not too expensive. Its a gen III engine so install would be a snap. I'm assuming your truck has a gen III engine allready. Right? what year is it?
http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/120/products/229029/60L-Gen-III-Escalade-Crate-Engine.htm
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new212s
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posted December 31, 2005 07:22 AM
Edited By: new212s on 31 Dec 2005 08:30
Alot of chevy guys I see. I have an 03 Lightning that stock dyno'd 426rwtq. With just a pulley, chip, and air filter I dyno'd 417whp @ 4750rpms and 528 rwtq @ 3580rpms. It tows 3300lbs just fine.
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CrotchRocket
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posted December 31, 2005 07:50 AM
Jim...I have a 2003 Chevy Express 3500 with the 6.0 motor...Ya think that Escalade motor you have linked above will give me that 345hp in my van???...Will I have to change the ECU???
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BROOKLYNNYZX12
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posted December 31, 2005 10:03 AM
Edited By: BROOKLYNNYZX12 on 31 Dec 2005 10:11
AliveAgain,you didn't mention what engine your Avalanche has..i'm assuming it's a 5.3...What kind of trailer are you towing that requires 4 low???I have towed 3500lb cars on car trailers,2 ZX-12's on a bike trailer with the bed loaded with shit in my 5.3 Silverado and I have never had to use 4 low!Who wouldn't want more power but my 5.3 tows pretty good .When I have a steep grade with a car on the back I use the tow/haul switch on the gearshift,it delays the upshifts it helps when you are towing.If I had to do any upgrades to help it tow better I would stick to some pretty basic bolt ons like a good cold air intake system like Volant...it bolts right in and doesnt make the objectionable intake roar.I would look into getting the ECM reprogrammed...you wouldnt believe the difference that would make too! I would stay away from exhaust mods because I think it would hurt the low end power in an already small engine...325 cubes.If you do any stop and go driving avoid underdrive pulleys...Look into a gear change maybe too...my truck has 3:73's...what does yours have?Transplanting a 502 in that nice truck doesn't make sense to me....very costly mod to do correctly.It is a major,major undertaking..no pulleys,brackets or who know what else will not work....The 4.8/5.3/6.0 is an LS1 type of engine using any of the older style crate engines big or small block is a huge job.
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wedrivezs
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posted December 31, 2005 11:22 AM
www.ststurbo.com
that would be the only way I'd go.
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aliveagain
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posted December 31, 2005 11:54 AM
I have a 2004 Avalanche with a 5.3 motor and 3:73 gears.The trailer is about 7500 lbs. loaded.I would like to stay away from regearing as I put on over 20,000 miles a year camping, the races,work and going to NA metings.Plenty of hp but I have to back it up a hill slowly at my house and the truck cannot do it unless in 4lo.It did it one other time at a camp ground where I was waiting in line to use the dump station.Even in the tow/haul mode,the truck is revving like shit on a hill to go 60mph.RV.net had a couple of people try superchargers.One brand was good for racing and the other was for towing, getting maximum torque down low.
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wedrivezs
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posted December 31, 2005 11:02 PM
I pulled a new dyno jet back from Montana with my 5.3L I set the cruise at 80 MPH - we pulled a lot of hills, at 65 MPH it would shift into 2nd gear and stay there for 2-3 minutes (6100 RPM) 50,000 miles later it runs even better 
That was with our 3rd try at a custom ECU program, after 3 more trys I'm finally happy with it.
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jimzx9r
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posted January 01, 2006 05:47 PM
I would go with STS as well. I didn't realize they made them for the trucks.
So who else is on LS1tech?
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warbird
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posted January 01, 2006 08:45 PM
Edited By: warbird on 1 Jan 2006 20:50
Drivability Exactly Like Stock...............
http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/product.asp?ProdID=1144
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aliveagain
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posted January 01, 2006 09:13 PM
The whipple looks alot like the Kenne Bell one I was reading about.Still would like to here who has had them on a truck.I was wondering if maybe I would need a new torque converter.
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new212s
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posted January 02, 2006 07:24 AM
Edited By: new212s on 2 Jan 2006 07:25
Whipple and KB blowers are very similar as they both are twin screw superchargers. You want a roots/twin screw type blower as they produce more lowend torque opposed to a centrifigual blower that has more turbo like topend characteristics. Can't answer the converter question as I don't own a chevy.
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aliveagain
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posted January 02, 2006 07:43 AM
thanx y2kzx12r,I looked up Westport Mass. and its a 3 hr. ride.I'll talk it over with my wife and maybe we'll go there first part of the summer for camping.It looks like it is pretty close to water.That way it will give us a little more seat time pulling our trailer.Who knows,by then ,I maybe able to afford a diesel.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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wedrivezs
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posted January 02, 2006 10:02 AM
I've got a Kenne Bell on a '97 ford lightning clone. I'm building the engine now (I bought the truck with nuked pistons). - So I've never driven it. The roots blowers develop FULL boost right off idle, where a centrifugal (spelling???) only develops full boost at redline. My truck melted down because of a bad computer setup- there is NO oxygen sensors being used WTF??? Kenne Belle customer service totally blows chunks, I'd go whipple before you go with KB.
As for a diesel, the 98-02 24V cummins is hard to beat with an EDGE module. I've got plenty of feedback from guys getting 20+ MPG and being able to roast the tires taking off in 4th gear.
I've got a '04 6.0L powerstroke and it's a P.O.S. - you cannot chip it at all. The headgaskets suck, as do the butterlike headbolts. The 7.3L powerstrokes (pre-03) are bulletproof and get great mileage when programmed with a diablosport 85 HP tune.
I'm a diablosport and edge dealer - if you go diesel I'll hook you up cheap.
I've done alot of research on what I'm going to do for my next pickup. I really want a 3500 crew cab longbox Chevy with a 6.0L from there I might take a Lightning blower and build my own setup or buy a STS turbo system. I'm looking for some pulling power
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MadMike
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posted January 02, 2006 10:35 AM
I have always wanted to put a supercharger on my V10 excursion... when I am heading up hills at times it kicks down when I do not think it really should...
but the cost is the only thing holding me back...
One question I have always wondered! with a supercharger just standard driving no load, would I get better gas milage?? right now on the interstate I can get between 12-14mpg... if it is not crazy windy...
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aliveagain
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posted January 02, 2006 10:51 AM
I think I'm set that whatever diesel I get,it will be a standard.I've heard greatthings about the motors,but everyone tells me all of the automatics suck.I've never gone to a transmission place but have been told all 3 makes are problematic.
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jimzx9r
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posted January 02, 2006 11:00 AM
quote:
One question I have always wondered! with a supercharger just standard driving no load, would I get better gas milage?? right now on the interstate I can get between 12-14mpg... if it is not crazy windy...
Probably not. Even if it's moving the same amount of air, it still requires the same amount of fuel. Once the blower is making boost it will use more air and need more fuel.
However, if your engine has a crappy tune right now, it wouldn't surprise me if you picked up a few mpg after a blower install with a better tune.
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new212s
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posted January 02, 2006 03:25 PM
quote:
I've got a Kenne Bell on a '97 ford lightning clone. I'm building the engine now (I bought the truck with nuked pistons). - So I've never driven it. The roots blowers develop FULL boost right off idle, where a centrifugal (spelling???) only develops full boost at redline. My truck melted down because of a bad computer setup- there is NO oxygen sensors being used WTF??? Kenne Belle customer service totally blows chunks, I'd go whipple before you go with KB.
Not sure your exact setup but when at wot the computer goes into closed loop mode and the o2 sensors aren't used. Now if your o2 sensors aren't working during normal driving then it definitley sounds like a ecu/tuning problem. What tuning software/tuner are you using?
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wedrivezs
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sundance kid
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posted January 02, 2006 09:12 PM
new212s
I haven't a clue what's in there, it's getting wiped clean and tuned with www.snipertuning.com laptop software
there isn't even a spot for the O2 sensors in the flowmaster exhaust. I had to order bungs and weld them in......
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Revenge is the oldest motivation known to man
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