worm~hole
Needs a life
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Posts: 10623
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posted December 12, 2005 12:16 PM
...I'll look up the definitons of your Florida state vehicle, penal, and civil codes when I have time and will be back to break it down for us ludites...in the meantime enjoy the music.... 
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
  
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 12, 2005 12:24 PM
 Edited By: worm~hole on 12 Dec 2005 12:25
..sorry...maybe double-speak is not applicable here, but if I am allowed for the lack of a better description, "regional symantics", can cloud what we are trying to explain to each other...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 12, 2005 12:25 PM
Edited By: trenace on 12 Dec 2005 12:26
You will find "book meanings" that every infraction of every sort is a crime -- however actually operate in the State of Florida and you will know that things like ordinary speeding tickets are not generally referred to as being crimes, and questions about crimes are implicitly understood not to include such, for the reasons I stated.
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 12, 2005 12:37 PM
..aha!...so by your and the "book meanings", speeding is indeed a crime, although its a lesser crime than murder...see?
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 12, 2005 12:44 PM
Edited By: trenace on 12 Dec 2005 12:54
The difference is whether one considers pedantic "book meaning" -- which in practice is not how people use the word 99-plus percent of the time -- to be more important than how people in fact use the word. There are people like that. Perhaps you are one of them.
In practice though these sorts of civil infractions are not what people mean by the word "crime" at least not in Florida. Ask a cop, judge, or lawyer "Any crimes on this guy's record?" and he is not going to tally up tickets for 10 mph over. Wouldn't even occur to him to do so. Just how it is. Not, in practice, considered crimes here.
Perhaps it's different in your state, since there such are part of the criminal code. Not so here.
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 12, 2005 01:07 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 12 Dec 2005 13:15
...pedantic or not, I (and I suspect most reasonable people who can read and comprehend) think "crime" means "crime" 100% as defiend within the criminal justice system of these United States...the punishment for the crime may be vary in each state, however...
...fyi...the often asked question in the minds of the judge, jury, prosecutor, defense, etc. is "what would a reasonable person do, think, etc.?...a reasonable person....not what person with a "special interest" ie. speeding sportbikers who like to excercise their and their sportbike's capabilities on public roads....
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 12, 2005 01:13 PM
Edited By: trenace on 12 Dec 2005 13:15
But an ordinary traffic ticket in Florida, e.g. speeding 10 mph over, does not go through the criminal justice system, unlike, apparently, your state. So there you have it.
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 12, 2005 01:27 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 12 Dec 2005 13:30
...and if you fail to appear for the ticket or pay the fine, what court system does it fall under?...civil?...or criminal?....I'm guessing criminal in any of these United States...I'm waiting....
...btw, did you know that a ticket is a "Notice to Appear" ...which means that when you're stopped, detained, and the officer is writing you a ticket, that you're technically under arrest because you're not free to go until he lawfully releases you, and in signing the ticket you're acknowledging that you've been arrested, though have not admitted guilt, and are being released on your own recognizance and that you are promising to appear in court to lead with the court for the crime that you've allegedly committed?..may the best man win
...and that failure to appear at the appointed court date or failure to pay the fine in lieu of appearing in court will result in a warrant for your re-arrest?...yeah, that's how we do it in California...keeps the criminal justice system from being bogged down to severely...we have options...some people don't want to fight the ticket and just pay the fine which is basically admitting guilt....fine !
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted December 12, 2005 01:32 PM
so is it a crime if you break a local by-law or something? or is a by-law (or other city level regulations) not a law?
frankly tho i think all this debate is academic at best. in common use among plebians not educated in the legal system, IMHO "crime" will only be used to describe serious transgressions of the law, specifically where the act in question harmed a person or significantly damanged significant property (ie. i doubt most people would even label a teen batting mailboxes a criminal cause the damage is not significant). and if i'm not mistaken that's what trenace is getting at. of course if the question is asked on something liek a job application, i'd assume the legal interpretation of the word would/should apply, not the colloquial interpretation.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 12, 2005 01:33 PM
Edited By: trenace on 12 Dec 2005 13:34
quote:
..and if you fail to appear for the ticket or pay the fine, what court system does it fall under?...civil?...or criminal?....I'm guessing criminal in any of these United States...I'm waiting....
...btw, did you know that a ticket is a "Notice to Appear" ...which means that when you're stopped, detained, and the officer is writing you a ticket, that you're technically under arrest because you're not free to go until he lawfully releases you, and in signing the ticket you're acknowledging that you've been arrested, though have not admitted guilt, and are being released on your own recognizance and that you are promising to appear in court to lead with the court for the crime that you've allegedly committed?..may the best man win
...and that failure to appear at the appointed court date or failure to pay the fine in lieu of appearing in court will result in a warrant for your re-arrest?...yeah, that's how we do it in California...keeps the criminal justice system from being bogged down to severely...we have options...some people don't want to fight the ticket and just pay the fine which is basically admitting guilt....fine !
For this first: Ah, but the charge becomes different or rather added. The resulting criminal charge is not the speeding, but the failure to appear in civil court (or to have a lawyer appear for you, or to pay without appearing).
For the second, Yes for the most part, though in Florida for many things you are not promising to appear in court, that is not necessary for many civil infractions, which many traffic tickets are.
For the third, Yes.
In fact, I know that one all too well. 
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238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
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posted December 12, 2005 01:36 PM
[quote
...btw, did you know that a ticket is a "Notice to Appear" ...which means that when you're stopped, detained, and the officer is writing you a ticket, that you're technically under arrest because you're not free to go until he lawfully releases you, and in signing the ticket you're acknowledging that you've been arrested, though have not admitted guilt, and are being released on your own recognizance and that you are promising to appear in court to lead with the court for the crime that you've allegedly committed?..may the best man win
I never thought about it like that...  if that's the case, I've been arrested many times!!... 
____________
Pilot Powers took me to the grave, and brought me back...
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 12, 2005 01:39 PM
Edited By: trenace on 12 Dec 2005 13:43
quote:
so is it a crime if you break a local by-law or something? or is a by-law (or other city level regulations) not a law?
frankly tho i think all this debate is academic at best. in common use among plebians not educated in the legal system, IMHO "crime" will only be used to describe serious transgressions of the law, specifically where the act in question harmed a person or significantly damanged significant property (ie. i doubt most people would even label a teen batting mailboxes a criminal cause the damage is not significant). and if i'm not mistaken that's what trenace is getting at. of course if the question is asked on something liek a job application, i'd assume the legal interpretation of the word would/should apply, not the colloquial interpretation.
Yes. I was discussing the practical use of the word while acknowledging that there is a different but very-rarely-if-ever-used-in-practice technical definition.
However, even with the job application, it is so well understood here that ordinary traffic tickets are not criminal acts, not in practice considered crimes, that only an excessive pedant would say "yes" to having commited crimes if they had nothing but minor traffic tickets. The understood-correct answer is no.
As I put it in a previous post, if you ask a cop, lawyer, or judge "Any crimes on this guy's record?" they wouldn't even think to be tallying up minor traffic tickets. It's not what's being talked about, just as you said. There's times when there are book definitions that just totally are not how people really use a word, and this is one of 'em, at least in Florida but apparently not worm's state.
You provide above other examples as well -- perhaps a pedant could find a book definition where violation of a county ordinance on grass not being allowed to grow past 4" tall is "a crime" but in practice people do not consider someone to have been charged with a crime on account of getting a ticket for such a thing, their grass having gotten 5" tall. However you will find people that will find a definition and argue with you all day about it I suppose, that it is "a crime."
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 12, 2005 01:44 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 12 Dec 2005 13:47
...JERE YOU HOOLIGAN!!!...JEZEBELL!!!!....but only if you've been written a coupon....coupon (aka ticket) = arrest....stopped+no ticket=lawful detention....unreasonable detention (over 30 minutes duration without reasonable/justifiable cause ie. computer glitches, terrain,environment, etc.) = arrest...I'm here to protect and serve...except when I'm tired...then I protect and swerve
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 12, 2005 01:53 PM
Edited By: trenace on 12 Dec 2005 16:07
Few if any broad concepts in law can be briefly stated in a way that covers all cases and conditions, this being no exception.
But just as a general handle on it, personally I'll go with a definition from what worm proposed above: If it goes through the criminal justice system and is found guilty there, it's found to be a crime, as people ordinarily use the word.
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 12, 2005 02:03 PM
...a crime is a crime is a crime...a criminal is as a criminal does...being arrested for allegedly committing a crime is one thing (the concept of innocent until proven guilty)...being convicted of a crime is a different animal in itself, you are now a convict until you've served your time or paid your fine...then you're techanically an ex-con with a record (tho some records can be expunged and sealed)...isn't that nice boys and girls?
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 12, 2005 04:24 PM
....DOH!...52/48 against those rat-bastid cops....AAAAARGH!!!!!...THE AGONY!!!!....OH THE HUMAN-NEE-TEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!......
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted December 12, 2005 04:41 PM
quote:
...a crime is a crime is a crime...a criminal is as a criminal does...being arrested for allegedly committing a crime is one thing (the concept of innocent until proven guilty)...being convicted of a crime is a different animal in itself, you are now a convict until you've served your time or paid your fine...then you're techanically an ex-con with a record (tho some records can be expunged and sealed)...isn't that nice boys and girls?
So you are telling us that if you are arrested and never convicted, that arrest will be completely transparent to the police and they would never use that arrest in any way shape or form in determining if they should make your life miserable or turn you loose? Careful now.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
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posted December 12, 2005 04:49 PM
that post was meant for the other thread, and was submitted using the quick reply IN that thread...sorry
being called a pedant doesn't make my point any less valid. The police officer that stopped you thoughtyou were BREAKING A LAW (does that make you feel better to not belabeled a 'criminal' for breaking a 'minor' law?)
Most non-called for encounters with law enforcement officers as admitted by the many posts in this thread indicate that the reply poster was indeed breaking a law, nomatter how 'inconsequential' it is.
hence most encounters with law enforcement for the relevant posts and opinions in this thread were caused by the person who was relavantly posting and opinionating.
Therefore the poll would be skewed because of that.
Is this a better and more acceptable using 'common terms' explanation for the point i was trying to make, which was that most traffic stops are legitimate (petty or otherwise) and most negative experiences are from their own lawlessness being halted by a LEO....
  
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scooter trash
Expert Class
Posts: 407
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posted December 12, 2005 04:59 PM
"If you don't like cops, the next time you are in trouble and need help, call a hippie".
That classic 70's bumper sticker slogan dug up from deep in my memory of the seventies. LOL
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 12, 2005 05:26 PM
quote:
that post was meant for the other thread, and was submitted using the quick reply IN that thread...sorry
being called a pedant doesn't make my point any less valid. The police officer that stopped you thoughtyou were BREAKING A LAW (does that make you feel better to not belabeled a 'criminal' for breaking a 'minor' law?)
Most non-called for encounters with law enforcement officers as admitted by the many posts in this thread indicate that the reply poster was indeed breaking a law, nomatter how 'inconsequential' it is.
hence most encounters with law enforcement for the relevant posts and opinions in this thread were caused by the person who was relavantly posting and opinionating.
Therefore the poll would be skewed because of that.
Is this a better and more acceptable using 'common terms' explanation for the point i was trying to make, which was that most traffic stops are legitimate (petty or otherwise) and most negative experiences are from their own lawlessness being halted by a LEO....
Yes
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 12, 2005 06:39 PM
quote:
quote:
...a crime is a crime is a crime...a criminal is as a criminal does...being arrested for allegedly committing a crime is one thing (the concept of innocent until proven guilty)...being convicted of a crime is a different animal in itself, you are now a convict until you've served your time or paid your fine...then you're techanically an ex-con with a record (tho some records can be expunged and sealed)...isn't that nice boys and girls?
So you are telling us that if you are arrested and never convicted, that arrest will be completely transparent to the police and they would never use that arrest in any way shape or form in determining if they should make your life miserable or turn you loose? Careful now.
...no...unless its a sealed record, we will see it...your rap sheet willl show that you were arrested but not convicted....it can, however, show the courts a person's propensity to commit certain crimes....like speeding, for instance
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted December 12, 2005 06:46 PM
Wormie, you'll appreciate this, FUHGEDDABOUDIT
mms://68.178.174.134/BigMan/sToughGuys_12_10_05.wmv
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 12, 2005 06:56 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 12 Dec 2005 19:03
...eye'g goat bowls, y'know whatamean?....
by AC/DC
Well I'm upper upper class high society
God's gift to ballroom notoriety
And I always fill my ballroom
The event is never small
The social pages say I've got
The biggest balls of all
I've got big balls
I've got big balls
They're such big balls
And they're dirty big balls
And he's got big balls
And she's got big balls
(But we've got the biggest balls of them all)
And my balls are always bouncing
My ballroom always full
And everybody cums and cums again
If your name is on the guest list
No one can take you higher
Everybody says I've got
Great balls of fire
I've got big balls
Oh I've got big balls
And they're such big balls
Dirty big balls
And he's got big balls
And she's got big balls
(But we've got the biggest balls of them all)
Some balls are held for charity
And some for fancy dress
But when they're held for pleasure
They're the balls that I like best
My balls are always bouncing
To the left and to the right
It's my belief that my big balls
Should be held every night
We've got big balls
We've got big balls
We've got big balls
Dirty big balls
He's got big balls
She's got big balls
(But we've got the biggest balls of them all)
(We've got big balls)
(We've got big balls)
And I'm just itching to tell you about them
Oh we had such wonderful fun
Seafood cocktail, crabs, crayfish
(But we've got the biggest balls of them all)
(Ball sucker)
(Ball sucker)
(Ball sucker)
(Ball sucker)
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted December 12, 2005 07:24 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
...a crime is a crime is a crime...a criminal is as a criminal does...being arrested for allegedly committing a crime is one thing (the concept of innocent until proven guilty)...being convicted of a crime is a different animal in itself, you are now a convict until you've served your time or paid your fine...then you're techanically an ex-con with a record (tho some records can be expunged and sealed)...isn't that nice boys and girls?
So you are telling us that if you are arrested and never convicted, that arrest will be completely transparent to the police and they would never use that arrest in any way shape or form in determining if they should make your life miserable or turn you loose? Careful now.
...no...unless its a sealed record, we will see it...your rap sheet willl show that you were arrested but not convicted....it can, however, show the courts a person's propensity to commit certain crimes....like speeding, for instance
So a crime is a crime and a non crime (an arrest with no conviction) is also held against you? I thought that if one was acquitted, in the eyes of the law you were innocent, but not so. Kinda bias if you ask me. It also makes the assumption that the cops are right in their arrest. Which we all know isn't always true.
Would you let that rap sheet bias your opinion about whether to give a guy a big ticket or not? Maybe a person that you normally would give a warning to?
Do you feel that you are a criminal? Do you conform to the letter of the law in every aspect of your life? Just winding up your 12 in first would put an end to that theory.
Things are not always so black and white. No pun intended.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 12, 2005 10:08 PM
...actually ,Ted, and if we're talking strictly speeding tickets, most cops don't give a rat's ass about how many priors the person has, convicted or not....we just give the ticket or a warning on the spot, often not knowing if he /she has priors for speeding....but the judge might have something to say about how severe the penalty will be when he reviews the defendant's prior convictions if the defendant chooses to fight the ticket in court....yeehaw!
...naw, Ted, I'm not a criminal and I don't know anyone, myself, other cops, and citizens alike, who conform to the letter of the law in every stinking aspect of our lives...are ya' kidding me?...we all choose to interpret, bend, or break certain laws each and every single day...most are minor, like speeding, not major, like murder...speeding is more abundant, murder not as much, but the consequences when one gets caught are at the extreme opposite ends of the spectrum...so most choose speeding
...true its not always so black and white...discretion is a good thing, no?
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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