ninja12
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posted December 11, 2005 06:22 PM
Wormy, looks like 50/50 now .
Don't look like cops are held in the same high reguards as they once were.
We need cops, but we need decent respectable law enforcement even more.
How can so many people form so many places have bad expericenes with LEO?
Sociality will retilate, remember i told you first.
You think you have a hard job now, wait until the hunters become the hunted.
  
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trenace
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posted December 11, 2005 06:37 PM
 Edited By: trenace on 11 Dec 2005 18:43
Oh, I would not read anything into the poll numbers because the question as asked isn't very meaningful for gauging overall opinion regarding cops.
A person could say no, they are not happy to see a cop when they haven't called for one, simply because, for example, when speeding or whatever they don't like seeing a cop right behind them or what have you. That would not show they are anti-cop or hold cops in low regard. I don't think anything regarding those can be concluded from the poll results.
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slug
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posted December 11, 2005 06:47 PM
maybe most people have bad experiences with cops because their only encounters have been when they were the perpetrator of a crime?
   
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trenace
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posted December 11, 2005 06:54 PM
Very unlikely IMO -- will any cop state that the majority of their encounters with the public have been with crime perpetrators? That would be required for your suggestion to be so.
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slug
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posted December 11, 2005 07:14 PM
Edited By: slug on 11 Dec 2005 19:15
almost every person i have seen bashing cops in this thread has admited they were speeding or doing something else screwed up....
so yes, just about every person expressing an opinion on this subject who has had such encounters has admited to being a criminal when they encountered the police....hence my care in usage to say "most" instead of "all" to account for the exceptions to that observation
in fact, i'll admit that 5 of the 7 'un-called-for" encounters with police officers in my personal experiences i was the perp....
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trenace
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posted December 11, 2005 07:19 PM
Speeding isn't a crime (at least not up till some certain point.)
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ninja12
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posted December 11, 2005 07:50 PM
I'm not anti-cop .
I'm anti BS, especially when i have a legal obilgation to deal with it.
There is a growing problem with LEO abuse of their powers.
Ignoring it will only allow it to grow.
Keep kissing up and pretending, until it's you, your wife or your kid crying for justice.
Anyone remember the Texas cop who set up many of the black men in that city and the judge who let him. How many family did they destroy....where were the good cops?
Maybe i should have asked Do you believe you will be treated fairly and with repect
when dealing with LEO's?
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trenace
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posted December 11, 2005 07:57 PM
My answer to that would be, the great majority of the time.
I do agree with your points that abuse of powers is a very serious issue indeed, which should not be ignored. Actually probably very few disagree with that I would think.
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238mph
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posted December 11, 2005 08:30 PM
Funny how most people on here are either all the way on the cops side...
(like they do NO wrong...)
or
They think all cops are corrupt...
(which we know isn't mathematically possible)
Slug, I don't know if you're a cop or not... doesn't matter... but being 10 over doesn't
make it right for a cop to cuff and beat me... I'll be honest... if I could have reached a
gun, I would have used it. When you're getting beaten while cuffed, all you think about
is surviving...
All that...for 10 over??? If you think there aren't some bad cops out there, you need a
brain check... 
Looking back, I wish I had pressed charges... I wonder how many other people that
guy fucked up...  to that cop...
____________
Pilot Powers took me to the grave, and brought me back...
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worm~hole
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posted December 11, 2005 09:52 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 11 Dec 2005 22:14
...I wished you had pressed charges, jere, I wished you had....we don't need cops like that on the street...
...ninja12...show me the numbers, this growing trend of police abuse of powers...are you talking about where you live?...statewide?...on a national level?...if anything, I think there's a growing trend of bad news sells...for instance, a Deputy I work with was transporting two prisoners to the jail, both prisoners were pissed at him for getting caught committing crimes...on the way to the jail, they come upon a car crash, a lady is unconscious and trapped inside and fire is starting to engulf the car...this Deputy, who was just moments before taking verbal abuse and BS threats from his prisoners, stops, dives in, and tries to extract the lady out of the burning car, he's calling for help, help eventually arrives an agonizing 2~3 minutes later, but too late, she's already dead...think about that: the car could've blown up at anytime and killed this Deputy, but he went on auto-pilot and was trying to save this woman...or when a Deputy from a neighboring city shot an armed suspect who was shooting at him, the suspect gets hit and the Deputies at the scene are performing CPR on the same punk who just tried to kill one of them....or when a highspeed pursuit is terminated because of thick fog, but the suspects continue to speed away and it ends in a crash and the suspects run from the stolen car and jump off the bridge into the fog not knowing that the bottom is 50 feet below, so now its a rescue operation for the Deputies who risk their lives falling down the embankment to render aid to these knuckleheads and one of the suspects dies from a broken neck sustained from the fall...does the news media cover stuff like that?...hell no...only bad news sells, they only show that Deputies shot another man of Hipanic origin and want to make it into a racial-profiling frenzy or that the Deputies shouldn't have been pursuing the stolen vehicle...and there's probably tons more stories like this out there nation wide, but good cops don't like to toot their own horn...and if we complain or lash back at bashing, we're the weak ones...gotta jjust take it...hmmm, go figure...
...trenace..speeding is a crime...a violation of the vehicle code...violate a code and you've committed a crime...yes, really...but I think you already know that and just don't agree with it...
...for the record, I've also been verbally abused by a few cops in my younger days....basically racial stuff, but I've never been handcuffed, arrested, or beat down...but I had also been treated with courtesy, respect, dignity, and professionalism by the rest of my encounters with the police...I liked what they did, I liked what they said, I wanted to be like them...so I became one...trust me, I've had my bad hair days as well and I've been tempted to go way over the line...like when some handcuffed punk spit on me, or when this handcuffed bitch kicked me on my nuts...but I restrained myself and used the power of my pen instead on these two...and I've monster chocked a few uncuffed assholes and made them piss or shit their pants, too, but the fight was always on and dirty from the suspect at that point...just so you know that I and I suspect other cops here are not total geeks with our percieved dudley-do-right personas, we won't hesitate to utilize department approved pain compliance methods when its warranted...fight dirty and we'll fight dirty... 
...nowadys, a cop is at a scene because someone did something bad, although we try to go to positive events like fundraisers, schools, public relations events, etc, but most of the time our time is spent enforcing laws and fighting crime, ...so, yes, most suspects are not happy to see us...on the other hand, all victims are happy to see us...does that make sense, ninja12?...so its 50/50 now, but I suspect its always more like 80/20 in favor of cops no matter where you are in a democratic society....and statistically most cop encounters are via vehicle code violations on the roadway in our mobile society, so the speeding motoristy is not at all happy to see us...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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trenace
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posted December 11, 2005 10:14 PM
Edited By: trenace on 11 Dec 2005 22:19
Are you a criminal yourself? That is to say, would you say, simply being asked the question and not in this context (trying to defend your above statement) do you commit crimes? When you are asked on a job application if you have been convicted of any crimes, do you answer yes?
What I meant worm is that speeding (up to a certain point) is not a criminal offense, which is what the ordinary person means by "crime," but rather a civil infraction. It is not part of the criminal code, but rather is infraction of the civil code. Accordingly, one is not "a criminal" because of being 10 mph over the limit, as I suppose you agree? Judges and lawyers would generally agree with that statement.
Similarly, if asked under legal circumstances "Have you ever committed a crime?" it is correct to answer "no" regardless of speeding convictions, assuming they were not under the criminal code, e.g. merely 10 mph over. Any lawyer or judge will confirm this.
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worm~hole
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posted December 11, 2005 10:18 PM
...speeding tickets, which is a violation of the vehicle code go to criminal court, not civil court in my neck of the woods...cops can't even get involved with civil matters unless it is they who are being sued in civil court...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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trenace
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posted December 11, 2005 10:21 PM
Edited By: trenace on 11 Dec 2005 22:22
Not so in Florida -- what I stated above is accurate here.
So in your neck of the woods you are a criminal yourself, having committed crimes by your definition? (Since I doubt you have absolutely never exceeded the speed limit, and you consider that a crime.) Interesting state of affairs then.
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worm~hole
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posted December 11, 2005 10:30 PM
...get real trenace...I've owned a Z-1, KZ900, FZR1000, ZX-10R, and ZX-12R...I've sped and continue to speed like anyone else here, but I slow down when I see a cop or stop when one wants me to stop...I've been let off with a warning before and after I became a cop...and I continue to issue tickets, but give out more warnings than tickets....want one?...which one?
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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trenace
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posted December 11, 2005 10:57 PM
Edited By: trenace on 11 Dec 2005 23:02
No, I am being real. It is amazing and new to me that ordinary speeding actually constitutes a crime in your parts, is part of the criminal code not civil. Astounding. Certainly not how it is in Florida. I also do find it interesting that all it would take would be for you to get a speeding ticket for a few mph over (assuming the cop didn't feel you and he were above the law) and you would have a criminal record, and would have to answer "yes" for whether you'd been convicted of a crime. I did not know that was the case anywhere in America.
Maybe that explains something that had puzzled me for some time -- when I drove up in Maine a couple of years ago, I just couldn't believe it: EVERYONE adhered to the speed limit with a vengeance. I mean NOBODY was one mph over, except myself. NOBODY. A completely alien experience (here in Florida, much of the time everybody around is at least 10 over.)
Perhaps, like your area, it's actually a criminal offense there. That could explain it I suppose. I had attributed it to rod-up-their-ass rigid personality types, but perhaps that wasn't the full explanation.
But no, here it is only a civil infraction.
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slug
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posted December 12, 2005 04:04 AM
every time i have been asked that question on job applications, i have had to answer yes unless they specified "Except traffic citations"
Here's the question: if no crime was committed why do you have to go see the judge and pay a fine? Aren't fines levied to prevent crime?
quote:
crime n.
1. An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction.
you can play semantics games all day long and you can try to weasel around to get your own way (like in the souter case) but NEITHER manipulations make you right.
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238mph
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posted December 12, 2005 07:48 AM
Worm... not to get ugly here 
But if I WAS a cop, of course I'd stop for a ticket... because I'd let the officer stopping me
know that I too was an officer... and then we'd share some cool stories and I'd go home...
sans ticket!!!
I think that if other guys KNEW that when they got pulled, ALL they would get is a ticket,
they'd stop... but it's the fear factor of knowing (and not knowing) that the cop is going to
fuck you up... especially in remote areas. Hell, it even happens in city places... look at that
black guy in New Orleans they beat the shit out of...
I'm so glad I'm NOT black... they get it much worse than the white guy... and as a white guy
I've caught hell a bunch of times... never been arrested and don't use, sell, or play with
drugs... speaking of drugs... when I lived in Florida, I had a gofast boat... cigarette....
and I could never go for a fast ride out in the ocean without being pulled and harrassed
by customs agents... and even when they didn't find anything on my boat, they would fuck
it up... like say "Oh, you got any drugs in here???" and then slice the padding over my
engine covers...
So there are dick cops out on the water too... don't forget them...
____________
Pilot Powers took me to the grave, and brought me back...
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worm~hole
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posted December 12, 2005 08:09 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 12 Dec 2005 11:48
...I hope the water cops had probable cause besides profiling your type of boat to slice up your upholstery, although I think federal cops need less probable cause to do stuff us city, county, and state cops want to do...that's like stopping every low-rider because there's a 'gangsta' driving it..profile stops via a person's ethnicity or what they drive or ride is a big no-no here....but you can thank the illegitimate rich buying high end stuff screwing it up for the legitimate rich from enjoying the fruits of their labor....I'd be very pissed, too, jere...hell, I remember one upon a time back in 1988 when I bought my new BMW M3 in Orange County, Ca....got looked at by cops frequently...why?....because I'm not white?...and I'm the last person I know to pull the race card, so you know that it was bad...even got asked one time how I could afford such an expensive car....no....I worked my ass off at two jobs...so, I hear you, 238
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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trenace
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posted December 12, 2005 11:04 AM
Edited By: trenace on 12 Dec 2005 12:10
quote:
every time i have been asked that question on job applications, i have had to answer yes unless they specified "Except traffic citations"
Here's the question: if no crime was committed why do you have to go see the judge and pay a fine? Aren't fines levied to prevent crime?
quote:
crime n.
1. An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction.
you can play semantics games all day long and you can try to weasel around to get your own way (like in the souter case) but NEITHER manipulations make you right.
No, the more correct statement would be, neither thing I said is something YOU agree with.
If you read my posts on this latter subject carefully you will see that I stated, "according to the common use of the word." I did not say that there was no technical use whatever wherein even civil infractions such as even parking tickets are "crimes": in some pedantic situations that is the "book" answer to that question. However, in general practice, common understanding, and actual use -- all of which are far more important than pedantry -- there is a world of difference between civil infractions (violations of the civil code) and criminal violations (violations of the criminal code) and only the latter are in these regards called "crimes." And in fact there are all kinds of job applications that ask simply about "crimes" or "criminal convictions" and do not bother to say that traffic tickets, parking tickets, etc. don't count, though in fact they do not count civil infractions as "crimes," because at least in states where ordinary traffic tickets are only civil infractions, unlike yourself they and just about everybody around understand what I am talking about.
All this is in reference to states where ordinary traffic violations, etc. are civil infractions not violations of the criminal code. Perhaps you are not in such a state, which if so would explain your not understanding (though there are other possible explanations.)
BTW you are also wrong in your implicit assumption as well as explicit statement: you do NOT have to see a judge in cases such as I am talking about, precisely because according to the ordinary use of the word no "crime" has been committed, or to speak more technically, there has been no violation of the criminal code. Yet another error is assuming that existence of a fine proves that something is a crime. For example there are all kinds of regulatory fines that don't involve crimes at all, that the agency involved does not call a crime.
There is no point to you in debating it with you however: to use your other example, no more point than explaining to you that it's perfectly moral and proper to apply a judge's own decision to his own personal case. Changing your mind, on either matter, is not my intent. Rather, I have simply clarified the point above for anyone else.
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slug
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posted December 12, 2005 12:09 PM
In traffic cases, in order to do anything EXCEPT plead guilty outright you have to appear before a judge. When you sign that ticket you are basically giving up your 5th ammendment rights. Read it some time. There are also traffic offenses that REQUIRE court apperances, speeding over a certain limit, etc.
As far as i know, having read my tickets, just paying the fine is entering a "guilty" plea with the court, and instead of having your trial you bypass the 'system' and just send them the cash. Worm can clarify this if i am wrong here.
I don't care if you want or don't want to change my mind, what i do want is some sort of accuracy if you are going to portray a certain group a certain way or not.
Common use of criminal is interesting, because the common use of criminal IN THE COURT SYSTEM is one who has violated the law. A judge i went before made it VERY clear that we were ALL being charged with crimes, regardless of whether it was a parking ticket or DUI. That to me, sicne we are DEALING with courts and the justice system, implies COMMON usage. As well as techinical usage.
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trenace
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posted December 12, 2005 12:11 PM
Edited By: trenace on 12 Dec 2005 12:12
Maybe your state counts these tickets as part of the criminal code, in which case you would have no experience of what I'm talking about. Either that, or you're just pedantic.
Anyhow, I have explained it more than thoroughly enough.
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worm~hole
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posted December 12, 2005 12:12 PM
...trenace, there's got to a be a more simple way to say what your saying whether you're right or wrong about what you think a law or a code is, andwhat it means to violate them is....what exactly is your background that makes you write in such a manner?...
...first of all, may I suggest that you explain the differences between an infraction, a misdeanor, and a felony...then explain the differences between civil and penal codes...then explain where you got your information...(hint: a legal source books are very helpful )
...yeowzas!, your verbose double-speaking litany would even challenge the Pastor himself!
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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trenace
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posted December 12, 2005 12:14 PM
There's no double speak whatsoever.
Give me an example of a single thing that is "double speak."
If you find it confusing for me to delineate the difference between civil code and criminal code, well, I'm sorry if that seems like "double speak" but actually it's pretty basic.
You've said yoursef that in your state, it's all criminal code, so you're not personally operating under the same system.
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slug
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posted December 12, 2005 12:14 PM
To take your 'example' a bit further..
If a judge made a statement that murder was ok, would it be ok to murder that judge?
How can we have any credibility being against eminent domain if we ourselves UTILIZE eminent domain to further our cause?
If you can explain how US being guilty of violating what we believe in is logically defensible, please do so.
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trenace
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posted December 12, 2005 12:15 PM
Please switch your question on that to the other thread, thanks.
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