DaveInDaytona
Pro
Posts: 1696
|
posted December 10, 2005 03:44 PM
Why stop with police ?
How about pilots, lawyers, priests, mechanics, doctors, salesman.......... or even try soldiers and firemen.
Pick a career and you'll find people that rank from stars to scum and strong opinions on both sides from people who aren't whatever you're taking about.
Are you the best you can be at what you do ? Is EVERYONE you work with as excellent as you ?
Come on.
____________
DaytonaSportbikes Forum
   
|
238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
|
posted December 10, 2005 07:06 PM
quote:
Why stop with police ?
How about pilots, lawyers, priests, mechanics, doctors, salesman.......... or even try soldiers and firemen.
Pick a career and you'll find people that rank from stars to scum and strong opinions on both sides from people who aren't whatever you're taking about.
Are you the best you can be at what you do ? Is EVERYONE you work with as excellent as you ?
Come on.
Good point... I guess the BIG difference is that the other ones you mentioned don't carry
a gun and don't have the authority to kill, injure, or generally fuck up your day... and it's
their word against yours... and it always amazes me that the judge takes their word as
FACT and someone else is ALWAYS lying... that's just wrong.
I've been on both sides... living with a couple of buds that were cops, hearing the dirt
that goes on every day, and also being on the end of a nightstick for no reason.
I have stories that could go on forever...
"Tune up Crews" Cops that finally arrest a guy they have seen before, and rather than
take him straight to jail, he takes walk in the woods, where 5-6 cops beat him and
"tune him up" common as the day is long in Florida...
"Making Room" That's where a certain floor of the jail (that holds the tough guys) is full...
but the cops catch a guy that molested a young girl... so "making room" means to transfer
one guy out of the tough area to make room for the molester to enter that floor. Needless
to say he gets fucked up big time while the guards look somewhere else...
"RearHeater" Getting some ass in the rear seat of the patrol car... in return the chick doesn't
get a ticket... Some of the cops have been known to pull the same chick leaving work
at night on a regular basis... nice, real nice.
I could go on and on... when this crap goes on to the point that there are names for this
behavior we have a big problem. The on dash video has cut some of this down, but
the cops to have a way to turn it off...
I guess my point is that you guys that are cops here know about this stuff... and to pretend
it doesn't happen is BS or you really have your head in the sand... 
____________
Pilot Powers took me to the grave, and brought me back...
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted December 10, 2005 07:19 PM
 Edited By: worm~hole on 10 Dec 2005 19:21
...I guess you're saying that the cops from mid-west on out east and southeast are corrupt...I have yet to see bad behavior go unpunished out here in the west, especially in California in spite of what you might want to believe about LEOs in California...we're probably the most watched in the nation...
...as a for instance: watch any rerun episode of COPS and you'll see subtle yet important differences on how each region does copwork...watch rerun of LAPD and you'll see how its basically done in California whether the camera is running or not...now NYPD (THE largest LEO organization out there) has its own set of procedures I imagine (yoou brothers in blue out east, midwest, and other than California should chime in here now to correct any assumptions I might have about your department's style of copwork.)
...and opinions from a disgruntled cop is just as distorted...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
|
posted December 10, 2005 07:35 PM
Edited By: trenace on 10 Dec 2005 19:51
So, any cop that is dissatisfied with seeing anything wrong in his force, is distorted in what he says. Only the cops that are satisfied with what they see in their department should have credibility. Wow that is really good.
BTW who said disgruntled cop anyway? You pulled that one out of nowhere. Sounds like you are just out to discredit the cops 238 knew personally, making up a charge and a reason to dismiss what they say.
The basic problem and impasse here is pack mentality. If dentists, typists, soldiers, bakers, etc. operated on the pack mentality that is typical of cops then they would do the same -- no, this guy is not guilty, he's a dentist, we dentists have a brotherhood, the dentist is in the right. No, that soldier didn't commit this court-martialable offense, he's a soldier, no way. Nope, you must be "anti-baker," you presenting evidence that this percentage of bakers cheat people. Etc. You don't see this with other professions, or very very little of it -- a dentist has no particular bias that another person in some dispute almost certainly is right because they're a dentist, or that it doesn't matter what the evidence against the dentist is, automatic assumption is if it's a dentist, you're not seeing the whole story and the remainder surely will justify the dentist etc -- you do see it constantly with cops. Pack psychology. Perhaps the cause is the selection process and/or due to cops already on given forces demanding compliance with the existing pack psychology, but the cause is speculation -- that it exists, is not.
The pack psychology can be a dangerous thing and results in blindness to a lot of what goes on. Automatically dismissing what cops say if they say things are bad in their department -- oh, they're disgruntled, so what they have to say is distorted -- is moving one so far from the plane of rationality and so far into the realm of pack psychology that there's really no reasoning going on at that point. The cop is right, period, that's basically it, because he's a cop. Boy if you're not a cop then you can't have a valid opinion or judgment on it, and if you're a cop that says things are bad or not right, well then your view is distorted... That appears to be total blinkering, remaining able to see only what one wants to see.
|
DaveInDaytona
Pro
Posts: 1696
|
posted December 10, 2005 07:55 PM
I'll speak about what I know. There's plenty of pack mentality in the healthcare field, lots of bad things happen that get covered up all the time. Criminal things. It's there in other professions, but it doesn't stir up the publicity like cop bashing does.
A comment on your authority point. If it's based on fucking up a day then a computer geek could do it worse and longer than any cop.
Steal an identity, no problem, ruin your credit, easier, make you look like a sexual predator, piece of cake. Anything on a computer can be turned into something else. A one man tune up crew that doesn't even need to meet you to do the job.
In either case no one has the authority, but some have the desire and the ability.
____________
DaytonaSportbikes Forum
|
trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
|
posted December 10, 2005 08:04 PM
Edited By: trenace on 10 Dec 2005 20:45
I'm not saying it doesn't exist at all anywhere else. However, you really don't see the same extreme (except in totalitarian regimes of course, where you see it extremely strongly.)
Take for example the elderly retired schoolteacher beaten bloody, lying in pools of his blood, in that New Orleans beating. On every evidence that has ever been produced even yet, that was a quite clear case of an unjustified beating, at least one violent cop genuinely out of control and guilty of assault. Hell the cop even punched a newsman for no reason, no question the guy was out of control violent. Prima facie, on the face of it. That was no Rodney King case, it was very clear cut.
I would invite you to go to as many forums as you like on the Internet. Find me ONE COP who posted as his initial take on it, if at all ever, "Damn, looks like that was a bad cop, probably an unjustified beating."
Hell no. Right here on this board in fact we had at least one or two chime in with all kinds of made-up nonsense, I mean stuff that there was no evidence of, no hint of in the news whatsoever, just making stuff up completely to justify the cop and trash his victim, often quite nastily. Pack psychology.
Whereas with a doctor, let's say, this is not the case... if there's a news story about a doctor somewhere in the country doing something wrong and there's substantial evidence indeed of the wrongdoing, you will not see knee-jerk (or any sort of) response of doctors saying No there surely is more to it than you see here, if you knew the rest of the story that would prove the doctor right, etc, just automatically siding with the other guy because he's a doctor too. Just not so. A doctor will readily assume another doctor somewhere in the country is perfectly plausibly guilty of what appears on the face to be the case, if the evidence warrants and any doctor will tell you they know it often does. A small percentage but still often, still a genuine problem.
Now within his own small group, sure he might cover up to defend within his own partnership. However you do not get this "any doctor anywhere, I'm going to jump in and defend him, being a doctor means he's almost surely in the right" that you do just all the time with cops.
Invariably, if they say anything on it, cops jump to the defense of any cop anywhere in the nation in any case of what appears to be wrongdoing. You don't see that with other professions in America. Not one that I can think of, not to remotely that extent.
And I have certainly never seen with other professions the logic that anyone that is dissatisfied with what is going on in the profession, automatically their view is "distorted" and therefore, so conveniently, all criticism is automatically completely disposed of. Few doctors, for example, would claim that some doctor somewhere in the country who specifically said certain wrong things went on where he worked, you should discount what they say because "they're disgruntled." No, doctors readily accept that it's quite possible that wrong things go on in various places if some doctor or for that matter non-doctor reports having seen it, if there's reasonable evidence of it.
Ditto for just about everybody else too, they don't have this extreme refusal to acknowledge wrongdoing of others anywhere in their profession or have this extreme taking-of-sides with anybody anywhere just because of being in the same profession. It's decidedly "off" really, so no wonder people in general do not do this.
The more typical psychology is to recognize that it's entirely possible and in fact happens that other people in one's profession are in the wrong a significant percentage of the time: just being a member of the same profession does not mean another person somewhere else is not a liar, a crook, a criminally violent individual, etc., or if there's a dispute between two people you don't know, just because one of them is in your profession that is little assurance that they are the one in the right, etc. It is an unusual (and I think unfortunate) psychology to be so resistant to accepting such or even generally refusing to do so.
|
238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
|
posted December 10, 2005 08:33 PM
Edited By: 238mph on 10 Dec 2005 20:37
Worm, I gotta say you are about the most balanced cop I know... If more had a reasonable
attitude like you, we wouldn't be in the situation we are...
Back east/south, cops are corrupt... Miami, Ft Lauderdale... it's a mess... every month or
so they run a sting on bad cops, and it's nothing at all for 10-15 cops go to jail for some
kind of shit...
I'm not here to insult all cops, especially our board members... it's just something that
is sort of difficult to talk about, without everyone getting mad...
It's a problem for us all... that's all. Recognize it, and try to deal with it the best we can...
With that, I want to say on one hand, "thanks" to the officers that put their life on the line
every day for all of us... and yet, there are other cops that are totally out of control. We need
to acknowledge that, and try to find a way to weed them out...
Take care guys...
____________
Pilot Powers took me to the grave, and brought me back...
|
trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
|
posted December 10, 2005 08:41 PM
Absolutely (to all the positives 238 said above)!
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted December 10, 2005 08:48 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 10 Dec 2005 21:10
...honestly, that's not what I meant...all I said was....never mind...I'm not going to explain about something that you've decided to write based on your own assumptions of why I wrote it...but essentially its like this: you gotta be a cop to do a cop's job and to understand what we (the cops) are talking about and why we do what we do on the job....all else is pretty much a jaw or finger excercise of speculation...speculate all you want...if you actually knew the job like some of us here do, then you'd see how what some non-cops are posting about copwork is pretty much wishful thinking...
...speaking of 238's cop friends....what kind of cop goes about beating citizens for no good reason, assuming 238 didn't actually do anything to cause the cop to beat him?...we weren't there....all we have is 238's side of the story...I want to hear the cop's side of the story as well....what did that cop see and feel to make him strike jere?...if its just a bad apple cop, then I'm just glad that I don't work with cops like that whether we have mutual friends or not...
...sorry, jere, I'm not dissing you or your story...I'm just using your experience to illustrate a point about copwork...I'm just wired to want to know both sides of the story...but I will readily say that if you did absolutely nothing to set off that cop, then I absolutely don't blame you for your cautionary relationships with the man in blue.....
...trenace...I think you might be deluding yourself terribly if you think pack mentality and its 'benefits', however it exists and however its implemented amongst the pack, dosen't occur in all professions and lifestyles...just look at us in the sportbiking community...a tightly knit pack if I ever saw one!...
...are there any doctors in the fishhouse?....I bet they could tell us a few stories of pack mentality thinking that would make us think twice if they dared tell us their story...how about people in the food industry?....the auto repair community?...the home repair industry?...there are probably hundreds and thousands of stories from these industries that we might find objectionable...and if we 'attack' their words and opinions, 'they' will justify or try to explain to us the whys and hows of the job and tell us that we just don't understand the job...just like cops...I can understand that...do you see what I'm getting at?...
...dude, I've lost a few cases because the defendant out-articulated me in testimony about the event as he/she remebered it occurred even when I was absolutely right and they were wrong!...serves me right to get sloppy with certain details...so the cop doesn't always win his/her cases....maybe in podunk, usa, they do, but not in the real world....
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted December 10, 2005 09:01 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 10 Dec 2005 21:02
...wow...I submit the above post and discover the prior posts to mine...you guys have been busy!  ....this is good...this brings all of us a better understanding of human nature even when we disagree...points well taken...
...now jere, don't get all full throttle scramjet mad at me, ok?... I was trying to make your experience a hypothetical one with ficticious names and places, but I couldn't do it without getting it all bulky and shit...sorry, dude...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted December 10, 2005 09:16 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 10 Dec 2005 21:18
...btw...I know that most of you have never met me, don't know of my work ethics except what post here, and that my words and opinions about copwork mean diddly squat to you...that's ok...I sometimes feel the same about you, too ...we're just discussing a hot topic within the guidlines of this forum...write on, brothers and sisters 
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted December 10, 2005 09:21 PM
This sure is good reading...
Hows this for wishfull thinking!!!...I would love to be able to take some of you guys out on patrol with me, but have you wear the uniform as I do...Then you will see what it's really like to be a cop and to know what it's like to have less rights than a civilian!!!
Why do you think the NYPD is called New York's FINEST... Because the job holds us to a higher standard, if you screw up whether it be minor, say being discourteous to a civilian or as extreme as a negligent shooting, you can bet your ass the job is going to stick it to us real good and look to take our pension away!!!...Now you know what happens, so I'm sure most of you here will do the right thing making sure you get to your retirement date and collect that pension!!!
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
|
posted December 10, 2005 09:40 PM
Edited By: TedG on 11 Dec 2005 16:04
I am of the opinion that patrol cops are at the top of the food chain especially the cops around here in Reno/Sparks. They are polite, friendly, and seem to really want to help and do. The same can't be said for traffic cops,sitting at the bottom of the food chain with lawyers and judges especially the Highway patrols around here and in neighboring CA. I have seen them setup fake work zones, Pull over people people on bikes for 5 over etc. Seldom do they pay attention to the really dangerous people following too close, cutting off others, changing lanes without signaling or even looking, aggressive driving. No these pillars of the community sit off on lonely roads roasting their nuts with their radar guns (which is good because we don't want them to reproduce) waiting for motorcycles. Or pull such stunts as ticketing two riders with one radar reading. Not even smart enough to direct traffic when necessary, they just let traffic back up for miles. I always thought safety was the main reason for their existence. We all know many of them break any traffic law they wish when off duty and turn around the next day and ticket people for the exact same stunts they pull. Their excuse is they are trained drivers. Trained drivers, my ass.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
|
trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
|
posted December 10, 2005 09:53 PM
Edited By: trenace on 10 Dec 2005 23:25
quote:
...btw...I know that most of you have never met me, don't know of my work ethics except what post here, and that my words and opinions about copwork mean diddly squat to you...that's ok...I sometimes feel the same about you, too ...we're just discussing a hot topic within the guidlines of this forum...write on, brothers and sisters
Worm, not one person was criticizing you (so far as I can tell) let alone your work ethics and certainly not myself, though I disagreed on automatically rejecting what cops dissatisfied with what they see or have experienced might report. From what I see you're a highly admirable individual.
Responding to your point, though, no, neither I nor most riders automatically jump to the assumption that because another guy somewhere rides a ZX-12R or rides a Kawasaki that therefore we assume he's right, therefore regardless of evidence appearing pretty plainly he's way in the wrong, we automatically jump in and deny he's in the wrong... nope, that isn't the average psychology including among bikers. It's perfectly common for one Kawasaki rider to conclude another might be in the wrong if from what's available it it looks that way, there's no automatic tendency to reject that.
Using that New Orleans beating as an example, no, I don't think if the situation had been that it had been a ZX-12R rider that beat that elderly retired schoolteacher like that into lying in pools of his own blood for no apparent substantial cause, that the automatic response from every Kawasaki rider that answered would be to jump in and defend the assailant, "he rides a Kawasaki so he must have been justified," and then proceed to completely fabricate stuff to defend him and trash the victim.
Nope. Instead the bastard that beat that elderly man bloody for no acceptable reason (and punched the newsman too for no acceptable reason) would be called the violent out of control animal guilty of criminal assault that needs to be locked up in prison that he was, being a Kawasaki rider having nothing to do with it, few even thinking for a fraction of a second that it could be relevant. A disappointment that a fellow Kawasaki rider did this, but that fact not changing the judgment. However within a pack psychology, not so: the fact that the assailant is a member of the pack (never mind in a totally different part of the country) is ALL that matters and all that needs to be known by the possessor of such psychology, so the response is predictable: attack of the victim and defense of the assailant, as was seen in the actual example.
It is indeed normal for members of one group that have a given psychology to a given extent to naturally assume that most or all others do as well, as your post has it, so your argument is an understandable one to be made, but that is not always correct. You may (and did) argue benefits of pack psychology, but in fact it can result in distorted perception, as well as, unfortunately, in some cases defense or even perpetuation of wrongful or even criminal behavior. So it's something to note, yet not one that is frequently (if ever) seen discussed.
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted December 10, 2005 11:20 PM
....you're too generous....I'm just trying to help...I should clarify what a disgruntled cop is in my book: a cop who got caught doing something bad and is pissed that he/she got caught and want to blame eveyone else but themselves...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
|
posted December 10, 2005 11:28 PM
trenace, i think u'r confusing automatically denying someone is in the wrogn with withholding judgement until one is satisfied one has both sides of the story. the first is obviosuly a very bad thing, the second is something very few people are truly capable of IME as we are too emotional and subjective.
|
trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
|
posted December 10, 2005 11:28 PM
Oops, I typed in some further part in an edit, but none changed the first part, which no, by no means is too generous.
Given your definition now of disgruntled (though I don't know what would have had to do with what 238 was talking about, I hadn't heard his roommate was caught doing something bad) then agreed, such testimony is very tainted, and from that definition, then my response on that aspect is irrelevant to that definition. If I had correctly figured your meaning of "disgruntled" it would have saved some space.
|
trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
|
posted December 10, 2005 11:41 PM
Edited By: trenace on 11 Dec 2005 00:03
frEEK, no, I am criticizing no one for wanting to be sure to have both sides of the story. That is a commendable trait. I am talking about, simply because someone is in the same profession as oneself, bascially automatically or at least having extremely high tendency for jumping to their side and trashing the other party, despite in many cases the available evidence making it absolutely unsupportable to do so (by which I mean, few or virtually no one without that bias coming to that same opinion.) The phenomenon I was talking about does exist: I believe worm's disagreement with me on it was more that he holds that it is fairly universal or at least common among very many groups to do this, rather than disagreeing that police have any tendency towards what I was describing. I am not claiming that he necessarily agreed in all aspects, as quite possibly he found some wrong, but I didn't take his answer to deny that commonly there is among cops strong tendency in that direction -- actually I really doubt that's in much dispute though perhaps you are disputing it?
|
frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
|
posted December 11, 2005 12:04 AM
trenace, definteily do not disagree with all that u've said above. i just took it that your statements about assuming the innocence of your clique was directed at responses you saw here (which is to say on bikeland) and specifically frmo worm~hole, and i never saw such a black and white case. if you speak of a more general case, then i wholeheartedly agree with you. i also agree with those that have said this phenomenon (the pack mentality) defintiely does exist elsewhere. we are pretty bad at it as bikers as i have seen on this board and others countless times. but where it happens to us, there's generally little or no consequence to our biased assumptions, whereas to a cop defending a (alledgedly) bad cop, there are likely plenty of ramifications, including having to state the same in court and runnign the possibility of going to jail, or someone else going to jail because of u. hence the reason pack mentality among cops (which is unavoidable as cops are unfortunately human) is so dangerous.
a final comment regarding the subject matter is that i suspect the type of cops that are being discussed here are rare. the insane cases of cops who beat civilians for no (good) reason are undoubtedly very rare. they're just publicised well enough that it feels alot more common. i don't believe the majority of cops are angels either, as most the encounters i've had were less than pleasant, tho rarely complete BS and definitely never got out of hand. moreover on the issue of cops who get out of hand, even among those rare cases i suspect the cases where the victim did absolutely nothing to bring it on are damn near unheard of. the reactions may be way over the line, but they are almost always bound to be reactions, likely to a snippy or disrespectful or simply uncooperative civilian.
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted December 11, 2005 03:26 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 11 Dec 2005 04:07
...we all need to sit in a smoking room with our smoking jackets, smoking our pipes, tapping our chins, and pursing our lips as we contemplate this and many other topics...heeeeere on bikeland....hey!...we need a bikelandsmokingroom.com site...there will be no angry words at that site...instead we can have virtual meaningful and intellectual conversations about anything we do or don't know about....or just blow smoke up each other's asses!
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted December 11, 2005 04:05 AM
...8 to 6 in favor of friends so far  ...hey whatever the outcome we will still love/hate each other, yes?...of course
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted December 11, 2005 06:28 AM
Yeah Wormie, it's all smoking mirrors
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
|
posted December 11, 2005 09:10 AM
Just to clarify what happened, since it was brought up....
I was in my car... doing 10 over in a 55mph zone.
I got pulled by a cop that was normally the partner of my roomate...who was off that day.
He didn't recognize me... and I didn't say anything as I didn't want him to think I was
looking for an easy way out of my ticket.
So he comes up and is really pissed off... and I'm thinking 10 over, no big deal...!!!
He wants my paperwork and it's behind the seat of my old corvette... no glove box...
so I even ASK him if it's ok for me to get out to get the papers from behind the seat....
He says yes...
Well as I'm bent over getting the papers, he grabs me from behind...and throws me
down on the ground, and cuffs me... I'm in dress pants, dress shirt and tie... going to
work. About 9AM...
Well, I'm on the ground cuffed... and I catch a boot into my side... And now I'm really
pissed!!! I called him a motherfucker and tried to get up... at which time I took
4-5 blows to the face and I was back on the ground. More kicks and finally I'm pulled
up and stuffed into the back of his car.
I'm half out of it... but the cuffs were so tight I could feel blood oozing around my wrists...
As I get a more clear head I ask him what the fuck was that all about... and he says
that some other guy ran from him just now, and he wasn't taking any more crap from
anyone... I said to him that was bullshit... and then I let him know that my roomate was
HIS partner...
So he calls Ray... to confirm it... and now he has a problem, as I'm really fucked up...
Well Ray gets in his patrol car and hauls ass to our location.... and is totally shocked
when he sees me...STILL CUFFED by this dick...
Ray takes the cuffs off... and gives me some first aid out of his trunk...
Then the shit starts... trying to cover his ass, the other cop wants to take me in for resisting,
which is BS... and Ray says it isn't going to happen. More arguements and it finally
comes down to this... I drive away, and don't press charges on this dick, and he doesn't
take me in. Last, Ray doesn't want him as a partner anymore...
That's the way it was... I wasn't on a bike, I wasn't doing stupid shit, I wasn't running.
A simple 10 over...
____________
Pilot Powers took me to the grave, and brought me back...
|
CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
|
posted December 11, 2005 11:15 AM
Uhh Ohhhhh, the hate level is rising
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
|
trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
|
posted December 11, 2005 12:27 PM
Edited By: trenace on 11 Dec 2005 12:30
quote:
trenace, definteily do not disagree with all that u've said above. i just took it that your statements about assuming the innocence of your clique was directed at responses you saw here (which is to say on bikeland) and specifically frmo worm~hole, and i never saw such a black and white case.[
if you speak of a more general case, then i wholeheartedly agree with you.
No. I wouldn't have come to this analysis from Bikeland. I was speaking of and it came from the general case. There are always exceptions, too.
|
|
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC