ninja12
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Posts: 3310
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posted December 08, 2005 07:57 PM
quote:
...and you've had experience being 'beaten down' on the side of a road?...I'm guessing not 'cuz you're still here posting and if there was a beating according to you it would have been to the death...you still breath and type...yet its as though it has actaully happened to you...there's always two, sometimes three or four sides of a story...
No, I have not been beat on, but I personal know of two people who have.
One guy was repeatedly kicked AFTER a crash. never a good excuse for this.
I have been treatened with a good azz whipping, when another guy i was with was
caught with two joints in his pocket. I have been arrested for resisting official detention
because i questioned why i was beening asked to get in a police car when i'm not suspected or charged with any crime. Got a screen test on the way. Normal harassment.
...so your opinion that all cops lie and that there's a 'blue code' of some sort and that cops who go bad go unpunished is based on what?...
Not all cops are bad, but the bad one won't wear a sign.
Even when Joe Public has video, the official stance is often, your eyes playing tricks on you.
Examples like rodney king, the new orleans teacher, and the mexican lady pulled from the truck on the expressway that where all caught on tape. ALL fighting back with both hands wrapped around their head while taking reppeated blow from LEO's. 
How many of those cases did the other officers report this wrongful beatings or even
step up after the video and say i was there and it was wrong? NONE.
...its not a perfect world, but try not to lump the whole of us cops in one bad and untrustworthy light...its been my experinece that bad cops are punished/fired...bad decisions are dealt with appropriately...most of us would never lie for another because its the right thing to do...I know of a few cops with whom I've worked with or graduated from the academy get fired, demoted, or even do jail time...this is based on fact, not opinion....
...the more you type, the more you show how little you know about the realities of copwork and the people we make contact with...unless you do the job, you can't possibly know the job...the cops here know the job and can quantify what they write...
You are right, i don't know the job. I do know some of this ain't right.
...LEO a gang?...
Look at the lawless pack attacks mentioned eariler and the way the others rally to support their own.
For the record, I believe you are a good cop by your definition, but i don't believe you would stop and arrest a fellow officers if you were to witness an unprovoked assault on a citizen.
Am i wrong?
My definition of a good cop would be the one who would stop and arrest the attacker reguardless of his job.
Why is it ok for cops get away with tickets " professional courtesy" and others go the jail for the exact same thing?
Is it not just as dangerous for COPS to speed?
  
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 09, 2005 12:01 AM
...I agree that the lady being pulled from the truck was very bad form...I agree that the New Orleans teacher was bad form...but you need to review ALL of the Rodney King tapes...Rodney King was in the wrong, but the media chose to show more of the club strikes as oppose to what King repeatedly did to warrant the cops' actions...
...for the record, I have stopped my fellow officers when I felt that the red mist was about to engulf them...for the record, the strikes that I have seen up close and personal have been warranted...
...for the record, cops give each other 'warnings' as well as they give citizens warnings...there are no department policies that I know of that would be violated by the use of an officer's discretion regarding a speeding ticket...most speeding tickets are infractions or misdemeanors...as a general rule, officer's discretion apply to infractions and misdemeanors...we don't have to take action on certain misdemeanors and infractions...felonies, however, require us to take action no matter who is committing the crime...
...yes, speed is speed, no matter who is speeding...it can be dangerous....
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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238mph
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posted December 09, 2005 07:09 AM
 Edited By: 238mph on 9 Dec 2005 07:11
I don't think I'm above the law, but I usually NEVER let my fuel level get below 1/2
just in case I need to slip away.
I only ride hard way out in the middle of nowhere... easy to do in Arizona... and if the blues
go on, I usually try to simply avoid the entire confrontation...
If I KNEW it was going to be a simple ticket, I'd stop every time... but I have been beaten
pretty bad, more than once... and I'm a WHITE guy (for those black guys that think it only
happens to them) So out of fear of how bad the cop is going to be really drives me to
running. I did get pulled about 3 weeks ago, and I stopped right away... but there were
11 other bikes with me, so the fear of being kicked and punched went way down.
But when I'm alone... no way... mail me a ticket, fine. But I'm not pulling over to be a
punching bag. I stopped once in ft Lauderdale, was going 10 over... so I figured why
bother to run, ticket can't be too bad... and the cop walked up to me... I still had my
helmet on... he hit me on the side of the head with a big ass nightstick... cracked my
Shoei!!!! Then he said "Tell all your friends I'm on the road tonight.."
I was just visiting and didn't know ANYONE down there... Oh, $325 helmet, toast.... 
My point is that I think a lot of guys run, simply because many of the cops ARE INDEED
out of control....
____________
Pilot Powers took me to the grave, and brought me back...
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted December 09, 2005 08:50 AM
Where are you 238? Sounds like a southern thing.
I know its not a black thing, but it far more likely to happen if you are a minority.
That is my fear, that i'll be attacked by leo, and have to hunt that sob down return the favor.
You know the rest of his gang will be after me wheather is is at work or not.
When it happened to a friend, he joked about being "Treated like a brother" , he is a really laid back white guy. Somehow he acts like it's ok for LEO to kick your azz because you violate some traffic laws. Sooner or later sociality will retailate.
Worm~hole all i'm saying is IF the law is so important to you that you would beat and kill
to uphold it. Why stop when the criminal has a job in law enforcement.
Where there no good cops to save those people when the cops where in bad form.
I think clubbing a person's head with a night stick is more than a misdemeanor.
Those people were illegally attacked in front of police officers, "bad form" is no excuse for
not doing the job you claim to be so proud of. Maybe it's not a crime when LEOs do it.
To make matters worst the spokeman always says the same thing "You don't know what happened before the tape started". Does it really matter if the guy is on the ground with both hands over his head? IT'S OVER. STOP BEATING HIM!
What happens when there's no tape to answer to. Do the good cops report it?
Would you stand by and watch me beat a LEO with a night club, IF you knew he was wrong?
I'm not attacking you, but as you say I don't know what's going on inside the LEO organization. Just what you to know how many feel about the LEOs outside.
A Good LEO would protect the public from all criminals.
How many good cops do you know?
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worm~hole
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posted December 09, 2005 12:27 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 9 Dec 2005 12:32
....ninjadude...its unfortunate that you have such a distorted view of law enforcement and its personnel...from these stories and hypothetical scenerios you speak of, I'm thinking that maybe your whole local police is corrupt...is that possible?....maybe in a small-town environment...
...did you know that cops are taught in the modern accademies to NOT strike in the areas of the head, heart, and spine?
...did you know that a struggle with a suspect who is determined to resist arrest is very dynamic and that a carefully aimed strike by an officer away from these three vital areas sometimes results in an inadvertant strike in those areas?
...did you know that modern academies teach cops to use the only the force necessary to overcome resistance and effect an arrest?...we do enough to stop the threat...sometimes it includes death...
...do you always know what happened before the tape started unless you were actually there and saw everyone's actions without obstruction?...its usually not 'over' until we get total and complete compliance...
...did you know that a determined arrestee who is handcuffed can still fight (headbutts, kicking, biting, grabbng, etcc.) and resist effectively?...did you know that some refuse to lay still and are always scheming an escape from the restraints?
...do you know that you'll probably never have any cop stand by and watch you beat a cop even if the cop who was watching felt that the 'bad cop' did something wrong?....good luck if that ever happens to you....and try not to get shot, because a modern cop has all kinds of gear on his person and the cop watching would not want you to have control over these items...
...I don't take anything personal from your opinions and beliefs and I do know that people who share your opinion/beliefs about cops are in the general minority....
....how mant good cops do I know?...its every cop still doing his/her job honorably...
ninjadue, there's more to it than meets the eye....trust me 
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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ninja12
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Posts: 3310
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posted December 09, 2005 01:46 PM
I seriously doubt the entire police force is corrupt, but i doubt there are very many good cops
there. Most are decent guys doing a jobs some better than other. Many selectively doing their job based on things other that the law.( blue code, politics, money.....)
Watch the attacks that are caught on tape, and tell me what happened to the training.
Believe it or not I did know , except
... I do know that people who share your opinion/beliefs about cops are in the general minority....
Take a poll to see how many truly believe that the man in blue is a friend to you.
Remember that in grade school?
How many are happy to see a cop they didn't call?
P.s the handle is ninja12
Good luck wormy ,
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
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posted December 09, 2005 02:00 PM
I think adreniline is sometimes a factor in bad judgement on their parts.... Such as Officer Haywoods death,got caught up in the job and rush of it....
But it was a bad call on his part in my opinion... Be like him in a car trying to catch an airplane...
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12r1
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posted December 09, 2005 03:01 PM
EXACTLY. !00% cops fault. Your a fucking moron ,or a brainwashed cop, if you think different. The same stuff that makes us run or chase. Cops are the professional, responsible ones, no?? This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me hate em more. Gonna chase me, too fuckin' bad if you wreck. Learn how to drive, copper.
jeff
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worm~hole
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posted December 09, 2005 03:57 PM
...that's ok. Jeff...we hate you back 
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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slug
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Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted December 09, 2005 06:08 PM
wow...some people are totally clueless.
I have nothing useful to contribute.
well, one thing. If they yell at you to stop doing something, HOW F****ING HARD IS IT TO STOP DOING THAT?!??!?!
Stupid people deserve a whack on the head/hand/arm whatever after the 5th time they are told to not do something AND CONTINUE DOING IT.
Sorry no sympathy for the woman in the car that got tazed, or the guy htat gets whacked 3 or 4 times for being a retard. Are there legit cases of abuse? sure. That asshat at the airport in atlanta is a great example (he screamed at a woman parked at pickup area waiting for passenger to move, got in her face, she started to do what he said and her mirror nudged his arm and he yanked her out of the car and body-slammed her. Same assclown had a pretty long history of similar 'incidents' with civilians, and atlanta STILL kept him on the force...) and he deserves to lose his job, but won't because he has 'credentials' (can't fire people with credentials, they will call you a racist ya know))
errr..oops.. i guess i said more than i wanted to. sorry.
12r1: get over your ego. it'll land you in an early grave some day.
  
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junior s
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?
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posted December 10, 2005 07:21 AM
So one day I'm riding home with the wife , she's following . Cop comes up behind us with the lights going , I look at my speedo -62 in a 50 . 12 kph over . 7 mph . It's cold and windy , just starting to rain , so I close the throttle and start to apply brakes - gently , it's crap weather right ....... This clown whips up beside me , looks over and swerves at me ..... Now I fucking near hit the curb -8 or 10 inches tall square edge,- no more than three inches from it and not anymore from his car right in front of my wife . What the hell for ? I wasn't slowing down fast enough was his answer . I told him that if he ever EVER got into a piss off with some punks , I'd watch and laugh because he deserved it . I take each cop the same as I take each person , one by one , some are jerks or losers , some are alright . Too many incidents to write about , but I've met both ends of the spectrum lots of times .
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12r1
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posted December 10, 2005 08:44 AM
Hate was too strong a word. Where would we be without some kind of order in society?
We definetely need you.
You have to admit, sometimes there's a time to put down the badge, and use some common sense.
jeff
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worm~hole
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Miles to go before I sleep....
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posted December 10, 2005 10:13 AM
...common sense...that's probably the most desirable of traits for anyone contemplating a career in copwork...as in all professions, some have it more than others...the badge allows us to legally enforce, or impose, if you will, laws voted on by society......
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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zxfingyz
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Posts: 424
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posted December 12, 2005 10:12 AM
Good point about being afraid of the cops. I never think about that because I look like a cop. Lots of folks don't and the man can take some liberties with our liberties can't he?
Too bad. It is a bummer all the way around.
With all due respect to WormHole I got 2 words for you hoppers out there if you get roughed up by the man -
News Conference!
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worm~hole
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posted December 12, 2005 11:54 AM
...and make sure you get your facts absolutely straight! ..having independant witnesses who have no self-interest or bias towards you is very helpful, too...the modern well-trained cop doesn't take liberties with your liberties, but some people take liberties with their interpretation of what their liberties actually are
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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capt10ed
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Posts: 327
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posted December 13, 2005 06:05 AM
Edited By: capt10ed on 13 Dec 2005 06:08
My sympathy goes out to the offiicers family!!
But lets look at reality. I will keep this simple
Do the math one crazed rider could do "x amount" of damage
One oficer going 130 can do "2x amount" of damage
We see the posibility of someone else
not just the rider or officer
becomming injured or killed has just doubled.
hind site tells us the chase was no worth it
But what a diasater it would have been if the officer ran into a school bus at 130
Not picture the carnage if the rider ran into that same school bus
Big difference
Weight the options
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2014 Loring AFB 14 runs over 200mph
with a best of 208.1 in 1.5 miles
and 204.5 in the mile.
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worm~hole
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posted December 13, 2005 08:50 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 13 Dec 2005 09:54
...ok, since some of you sportbikers like to play this "what if" game because you feel that you shouldn't be restrained from exercising your and your bike's high-performance potential on PUBLIC ROADS (as oppose to the well-trained LEOs who constantly evaluate what their next form of action in regards to public safety will be while in the public's eye), suppose a bunch of citizens saw this speeding motorcyclist go by and saw this LEO on the side of the road in a fully marked cruiser not do anything...then they see the high-speed biker pass another LEO, but the LEO does nothing as well...then the biker, who now can't believe his incredible luck looks back at these LEOs for an instant...then BAM!...he runs into the back of your beloved's van which causes your beloved to lose control of the van whch then crashes into a busload of school children and kills half of them and your little brother and sister were one the the dead?...
...guess what?...the citizens and, very highly probably YOU will wonder why the fuck didn't these two sonafabitch lazy ass LEOs do something about this speeding biker?...and the agony will haunt you and the LEOs for the rest of your lives ...then the lawsuits begin...who's at fault?...what percentage of fault falls on the biker?...the LEOs?...the schoolbus driver because he overcorrected to avoid the collision?...your beloved because he/she was on the cellphone and not in control of the van (we know this because witnesses saw the driver looking the other way while on the cellphone right before impact)...
...ridiculous you say?...well no shit, sherlock....and unless we were involved via being a participant or an investigator of the incident, none of us will actually know who is at fault and what or who the primary cause for all these deaths and major injuries were...helll not even the investigators will know 100% who's at fault...especially when one of the major participants is dead and cannot tell his/her side of the vents as it occurred...but the motorcyclist will say something...verrrry carefully, you know what I mean?...
...but we do know one thing for sure about the FHP incident...a motorcyclist breaking the speed LAWS at a very high-speed on a public roadway was seen by citizens and an LEO who, based on his equipment and training likely thought that it was reasonable to attempt to stop this biker...and died doing his job...we all take weigh our risks and we all take our chances...simple enough?
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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kawasabi
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posted December 13, 2005 10:16 AM
From the FHP Pursuit Policy: http://pursuitwatch.org/pursuit_policies/Florida_Highway_Patrol.pdf
"Members may pursue, attempt to stop and apprehend as expeditiously and safely as possible, any person in a vehicle who the member reasonably believes has committed or attempted to commit a crime of violence. ALL OTHER PURSUITS ARE PROHIBITED."
Since Mr. Williams was being sought for speeding, reckless driving, or whatever the appropriate traffic charge would be it was not a crime of violence and consequently the pursuit was against FHP policy.
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worm~hole
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Miles to go before I sleep....
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posted December 13, 2005 10:50 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 13 Dec 2005 11:18
...so then the question is: was the FHP Officer pusuing Williams or was the Officer attempting to, at a high rate of speed, get to where Williams was for the purpose of stopping him?...was it an actual pursuit (normally with lights and sirens activated) and did Williams know he was being pursued and actively evade?...did the FHP violate any of his Department's policies by driving at a high rate of speed and on parts of the roadway to arrive or attempt to arrive at Williams' location for the purpose of conducting a lawful traffic enforcement stop?... and what is the State of Florida's definition of 'violence' as it appears in its law books?...far fetched?...hey I bet you a donut that a good trial lawyer will attempt that angle...
...these are the types of questions that should be asked by both sides of the party, don't you think?
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
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posted December 13, 2005 12:00 PM
Edited By: slug on 13 Dec 2005 12:17
errr...stupid me. sorry
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trenace
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posted December 13, 2005 12:44 PM
Edited By: trenace on 13 Dec 2005 14:36
Yup, following behind someone and attempting to, 'at a high rate of speed, get to where a person is for the purpose of stopping him' is an entirely different concept from attempting to "pursue, attempt to stop and apprehend as expeditiously and safely as possible." Completely different. Obviously, since they're totally different things, while the latter is prohibited for cases not involving violent crime, the first could be permitted.
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worm~hole
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Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 13, 2005 02:30 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 13 Dec 2005 19:58
...I'm enjoying this cops vs the rest of the world intellectual interface with my bikeland bretheren....keeps me and keeps us all on our toes
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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trenace
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Posts: 3056
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posted December 13, 2005 02:35 PM
Same here!
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kram
Expert Class
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posted December 13, 2005 03:42 PM
I prolly evaded the po-po hundreds of times between the ages of 16 and 16.5. However, I do not intentionally distance myself from the heat when summoned. I take care of my shit and hold myself accountable for my misfortunes.
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Not just a great barbarian, the greatest barbarian, bar none.
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238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
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posted December 16, 2005 01:05 PM
quote:
...I'm enjoying this cops vs the rest of the world intellectual interface with my bikeland bretheren....keeps me and keeps us all on our toes
Just remember it's only a dialog... when shit hits the fan and a cop is down, I'm there
to back them up... with my life if needed.
I can't speak for others here, but I'll bet they'd be right in there too...
My idea of running is simply trying to "slip away" and have the cop go..."Where'd he go???"
Would I ever go into town, run red lights, put others at risk and in danger... no way.
____________
Pilot Powers took me to the grave, and brought me back...
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