gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted December 05, 2005 02:55 PM
Harry should have kept going 
  
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NinjaNick
Needs a job
'08 ZX14 (Blue)
Posts: 4558
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posted December 05, 2005 03:43 PM
Here is another link where some things have been said. This is a good arguement because on this link "ALIEN" says there is more to it....check it out. I replied in this link to his post about being more to it then and why did it STILL happen then.
http://www.zx-12r.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=398963#398963
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kawasabi
Expert Class
Posts: 150
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posted December 05, 2005 05:52 PM
Whoa, I missed this one!
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kawasabi
Expert Class
Posts: 150
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posted December 05, 2005 05:52 PM
How about we get an autobahn here? NO WAY, no money to be made letting us all run around at whatever speed we want. I wonder why the fatality rate of the Autobahn is way less than here in the good old USA?
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 05, 2005 06:01 PM
...its called LANE DISCIPLNE....in my 35 years of driving, I've noticed that A LOT of drivers of ALL ethnicity lack...the performance/enthusiast drivers/riders amongst us have an idea of what it is (yeah, we want EVERYBODY to move to the right when we're fast approaching from the rear  )...but rest assured that when someone faaaaks up on the autobahn at those speeds, the carnage is HORRENDOUS.....
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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blueford
Needs a job
Posts: 2984
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posted December 07, 2005 07:57 AM
 Edited By: blueford on 7 Dec 2005 07:58
quote:
Well, in Florida there's also "impound the bike."
Maybe the guy would not have have run if not in fear that his bike would be legally stolen from him if he did stop.
One aspect of the story I find dubious is these supposed witnesses claiming they saw the rider "look back."
Considering how far back the cop would have been, how many of us turn our heads to look absolutely directly, 180 degrees, behind us, versus using the mirrors?
And can a car driver or passenger really spot whether you are using the mirrors? Particularly if you are traveling 50 or more mph faster than they were?
Alternately, with the cop that far back, even if the rider DID look in his mirrors, would he necessarily have seen him? How would the motorist know that. However, I really question the motorist observing the rider checking the mirrors in the first place.
Very possibly some bullshit testimony there.
That was the key element of the crime and the prosecutors had to establish that beyond a reasonable doubt.
Remember to keep your fucking mouth shut around cops if you do anything, chances are they'll lie anyway but if you could scream out loudly "I didn't see you" "I didn't see you" over and over again maybe a bystander will hear it and make a good witness later.
Did this black guy have sentence enhancements, priors make a huge difference in sentencing.
If he was a good looking white kid in college, engaged to a nice girl, good wholesome family, politically connected to the judge's affiliations and had a defense attorney that plays golf with the judge with no priors, he walks.
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gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted December 07, 2005 08:19 AM
Yea Jet the system seems to work that way for sure. I'm not so sure race has as much to do with it anymore, BUT money is the key. Look at OJ and his case. Money was the key.
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 07, 2005 08:23 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 7 Dec 2005 08:26
...fat stiff riders attempt to use the usually uselrss mirrors...skinny limber riders do the Linda Blair...or look under their arms...
...cops who lie should be fired....
...on the other hand, because of the amount of contacts we make everyday, cops are lied to more often on a given day or hear a 'modified' version of the truth from lots of people....especially when the person being questioned has something to lose, to whit: "Remember to keep your fucking mouth shut around cops if you do anything, chances are they'll lie anyway......"....but you know, we actually expect that....its human nature, nothing personal....but a good cop doing his/her job correctly has no reason to lie...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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zxfingyz
Expert Class
Posts: 424
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posted December 07, 2005 08:30 AM
When cops die, somebody got to pay. No judge or politician can afford to look soft on crime. Black motorcycle riders are a small subset of the population. Would be interesting to know what would have happened if he WAS a white guy. The system is fucked up when it comes to race and sentencing that is for sure.
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 07, 2005 08:44 AM
...zxfingyz....read daveindaytona's post as follows:
A little info about Florida law.
In Florida if you are comitting a felony (which aggrevated fleeing or attempting to elude is here) and someone dies, even if it is your pasenger or someone with you, you are charged for their death.
This is not just a traffic law but since it is a felony to run in Florida then it applies. If the motorcyclist caused a citizen to crash on that day instead of the officer the charges would be the same. Even if the Porche driver he was racing crashed and died on his own the biker would be charged the same. The fact that an officer was killed only gives a minumin sentence to the crime, but doesn't change the charge.
From driving past that scene shortly after it happened and seeing where the turnaround took place I'd harldy call it a pursuit. My guess is that from where the officer made the turn to the crash site was maybe 2 miles. It's a four lane and very straight interstate with no exits for quite a while. On that day traffic was very light and scattered. Even running up the patrol car to speed to see if he would stop would take more time/distance than that run. I would guess you typically call off a pursuit after you see the person isn't going to stop. I don't think there was enough time to determine this.
Witneses were quoted to say that the officer passed cars at least once on the emergency lane and the rider was looking back. No one was specific when either of this happened. One of the things that I recently saw in news footage was an officer carrying a complete tread from a tire at the scene, still round and as wide as the original tire. No comments were made if this was from the patrol car, but specuation was made right after the crash that tire seperation was the cause, and these are speed rated tires.
An FHP officer did attempt a pursuit of the same bike on I-95 after this (about 25 miles away) and didn't continue to follow beacuse the rider was estimated to be traveling around 160 mph.
This officer wasn't a rookie with something to prove. He was trained and experienced and to speculate what he was thinking is pointless because you'll never know. The BOLO was on the radio long before this officer saw this bike, he just reported the location during the turn so he WAS one of the cars that was radioed ahead to so he could attempt to intercept.
All that being said, 30 years is very steep. But if you read the charges he was convicted of "aggravated manslaughter, vehicular homicide and fleeing or attempting to elude an officer causing death" it's pretty clear the judge is well withing the legal bounds.
...this, imho, is good info to know and very enlightening regarding Fla laws....as I've essentially posted in the sportbike.zone: just don't speed in Fla and be connected with a crash in Fla...no matter what you're riding/driving...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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blueford
Needs a job
Posts: 2984
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posted December 07, 2005 10:01 AM
Edited By: blueford on 7 Dec 2005 10:02
Worm said:
quote:
..but a good cop doing his/her job correctly has no reason to lie...
Unless the stakes are high enough, like a fellow cop was killed and the whole police force was relying on your testimony to put him away.
The police code of silence is a perfect example, almost impossible to break.
And it's fundamentally the same, if you don't speak up when as a cop you see police misconduct, it's lying and betraying your oath.
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 07, 2005 11:02 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 7 Dec 2005 12:19
...very true....that's why the people I work with basically tell each other, "Don't do anything stupid in my presence that'll force me to testify as I saw it because I'm not going to lie for you."....no one's perfect...we're human and subject to all human temptation but it basically keeps everyone honest....
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted December 07, 2005 11:43 AM
Good for you guys worm, I wish all cops were like that. I know personally that ain't the case with some of the crooked bastards that hide behind their badge.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 07, 2005 12:32 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 7 Dec 2005 12:38
...i think that you'll find that most cops adhere to this...a cop's worst nightmare is to be behind bars...he's/she's basically dead meat in there, or at minimum sleeps with one eye open...that's the least of what keeps most in line, however....I think most of it is just personal good integrity and a solid and realistic core value of human decency...there are bad apples in any profession...bad cops make all good cops look bad, but most good cops understand this and press on with the task at hand regardless...its a good job and can be fun and rewarding at times....and sometimes depressing and frustrating....especially when all the bad cops get all the press (bad news sells, as they say) and good deeds go unrecognized so that the general public get a more fair and balanced look at copwork...
...I'm personally looking forward to retiring from all of this in six years and ride ALOT until I can't balance a bike anymore...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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justoyz2
Zone Head
Justoyz Racing
Posts: 858
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posted December 08, 2005 09:56 AM
okay Gents
I am sure many of you are not from Florida. Well here's the real deal about the FHP. I happen to live in the area where this occured. The demanor of the FHP (most officer) are more them willing to chase you. especially if you are on a sport bike. The consenses with sportbikes in the Tampa area is, ticket them all or try to find something to initiate a traffic stop. The law in FL is to overcome, not chase. There is a no chase policy, however FHP does it all the time. They can only chase if a felony has been commeted, like murder.
If he was driving a camero, they thrive on chasing fast cars and bikes.
They park on Friday and Saturday nights on the bridges where the young cats hang, desiring to race across the bridges. I know many of you have your opinions, and that's good. You are entitled to it.
There are many more crimes that require more attention to speeders. Not saying that speeders should get away, however when you make the decision to chase a vehicle, where the chances is slim to none that you are going to catch, then you are endangering the lives of the other citizens on the road way. I think the case was decided because a life was lost vs the actual cause of the case.
I think the trooper welcomed the chase. In case you na-sayers don't believe, poll your local clerk's office on the demographic of speeding tickets that's been given out to cops. You all have cop friends, ask them what happen when they get pulled over for speeding? My heart goes out to the family, but as many of you have stated he made the decision to pursue a vehicle that he might not even have a good description of the guy. It is worthless to chase for a speeding ticket. What was gained? As the author stated, both guys are good people. It's totally different when you have a long rap sheet and have always been in trouble with the law.
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justoyz2
Zone Head
Justoyz Racing
Posts: 858
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posted December 08, 2005 10:02 AM
Florida has the contraband act. They just added the drag racing portion to this act. They can and will seize your bike/car or what ever if you are caught drag racing or transporting drugs
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 08, 2005 10:44 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 8 Dec 2005 11:06
...one thing speeding citizens need to understand about copwork: If you get stopped by a motorcycle cop or a cop in a 'pursuit-specific' type vehicle (ie. Camaro, Mustang, slick-topped marked sedan), then you're being purused, stopped, detained, arrested, etc. by TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT officer...State Troopers and officers from the Highway Patrol are primarily TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT officers, BUT they can enforce any Penal codes as well if they choose to...
...a TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT officer's copwork is primarily with matters involving your local, state, and federal vehicle codes...I say primarily because that is what they are assigned to do...if you're doing something bad on public roadways or parking lots open to the public, then you and what you're doing on public roads/parking lots are what these TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT officers are primarily looking at....
...so...save your breaths when you tell one of these officers that there are bigger crimes out there (rape, robbery, burglary, drugs, mayhem, domestic violence, etc.) to crack down on and solve because my fellow sportbikers and speed demons THIS job is what they competed for and were assigned to do...TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT...
...hope this info helps y'allz...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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DaveInDaytona
Pro
Posts: 1696
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posted December 08, 2005 11:00 AM
quote:
okay Gents
I am sure many of you are not from Florida. Well here's the real deal about the FHP. I happen to live in the area where this occured. The demanor of the FHP (most officer) are more them willing to chase you. especially if you are on a sport bike. The consenses with sportbikes in the Tampa area is, ticket them all or try to find something to initiate a traffic stop. The law in FL is to overcome, not chase. There is a no chase policy, however FHP does it all the time. They can only chase if a felony has been commeted, like murder.
If he was driving a camero, they thrive on chasing fast cars and bikes.
They park on Friday and Saturday nights on the bridges where the young cats hang, desiring to race across the bridges. I know many of you have your opinions, and that's good. You are entitled to it.
There are many more crimes that require more attention to speeders. Not saying that speeders should get away, however when you make the decision to chase a vehicle, where the chances is slim to none that you are going to catch, then you are endangering the lives of the other citizens on the road way. I think the case was decided because a life was lost vs the actual cause of the case.
I think the trooper welcomed the chase. In case you na-sayers don't believe, poll your local clerk's office on the demographic of speeding tickets that's been given out to cops. You all have cop friends, ask them what happen when they get pulled over for speeding? My heart goes out to the family, but as many of you have stated he made the decision to pursue a vehicle that he might not even have a good description of the guy. It is worthless to chase for a speeding ticket. What was gained? As the author stated, both guys are good people. It's totally different when you have a long rap sheet and have always been in trouble with the law.
I can say I don't see what you see, and I live less than 20 miles from the scene of this particular accident. Your profile says you're in Memphis, TN and talk about Tampa, both aren't in "the area" where this happened.
I've run a sportibke site specifically for the Daytona Beach area for over 5 years and know hundreds of sport bike riders in the area and have never heard of the excessive targeting you're talking about.
Complaining that an officer assigned to traffic enforcement hangs out where most people violate the traffic laws is hardly a valid complaint. That's holds as much validity as complaining that health department inspectors go into restaurants all the time just looking for problems.
You're all over the map with the justification of what I guess is your complaint.
You take a complaint of controlling racing on bridges and apply it to this incident which is a very different situation. Then with one broad stroke you tell us all about the attitude of the FHP as a whole which I'm not sure how you would know, and then moments later tell that you think this trooper welcomed the chase, again something you don't know, and then somehow combine that with the percentage of officers that give tickets to other officers which has nothing to do with anything you just brought up.
But even when it sounds like your complaint that everything is somehow off balance you suggest that it should be different for a person that has a long rap sheet which completely contrary to the complaint starts in that paragraph.
I'm lost. What is it exactly that you're trying to point out ?
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DaytonaSportbikes Forum
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 08, 2005 12:30 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 8 Dec 2005 12:33
....also: if it was your husband/wife/sister/brother/father/mother/son/daughter who was the officer killed in this unfortunate tragedy, what would you think of the 30 year sentence then?...would you tell the judge to reduce it because you thought that it was to steep a price for the defendant to pay even though you'll never see your loved one alive again?...or would you just say, "Oh well..." and go on with you life?...my guess is that none of us would know how to answer these questions unless it actually happened to us...I'm just curious of what people would think and feel then...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 08, 2005 12:37 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 8 Dec 2005 12:41
...money is leverage...thus the lawmakers use your hard earned money that you want to keep as an incentive to obey the law or pay the fines...its something that all of us hard working individuals can easily understand...we want to keep our money...
...so I guess we could make the monetary fine even steeper, say $2000 per mile per hour over the speed lmit...but then some riders would find an even greater impetus to run 'cuz they don't want to fork over the cash they don't have or face more jail time...
...so where's the balance?...who's responsibility is it anyway to keep things safe and sane?...the lawmakers?...the cops?...the voting public?...or the motorcyclists/motorists?...questions to ponder...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted December 08, 2005 01:12 PM
Edited By: ninja12 on 8 Dec 2005 13:17
Cops die, someone will pay!
They are above the law and can do no wrong, UNLESS YOU HAVE IT ON TAPE.
If a cop is beating your azz on the side of the road for a traffic stop,
It's illegal for you to stop him.
If you hold him, you resist arrest.
If you run, you flea.
If you fight him in anyway, you assault a officer.
Bottom line if you stop you put yourself at the mercy of the officer.
Depending on where i am, I'M RUNNING FOR MY LIFE.
Because I will not accept at roadside beatdown, It will end in dealth!
Will someone show me the the phrase where beating traffic stop is part of the LEO
job description. Reguardless of how fast he went, or how long he ran, when he stops the chase is over.
What happenes when they make bad decessions? NOTHING.
They defend each other and lie to the end.
You know the blue code. (gang oath)
This officer made a bad decession and it cost him.
He already paid a large price, why make someone else pay again?
Let each person pay for their action. Make the biker pay for speeding and
evading. He is guilty.
Anybody remember the school teacher for New Orleans resisting arrest with all the young
LEO beating his azzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. LOL
Looked just like any other gang attack untill i notice they had blue shirts and a badge not blue scarfs. LARGEST GANG IN AMERICA = LEO
Spokensmen said the camera angle may have look as if they where hitting him on the head but that was not the cases. LOL
Yeah right. Caught on tape and they still lie.
Good cops, Clean you own house first!
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 08, 2005 01:37 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 8 Dec 2005 13:45
...and you've had experience being 'beaten down' on the side of a road?...I'm guessing not 'cuz you're still here posting and if there was a beating according to you it would have been to the death...you still breath and type...yet its as though it has actaully happened to you...there's always two, sometimes three or four sides of a story...
...so your opinion that all cops lie and that there's a 'blue code' of some sort and that cops who go bad go unpunished is based on what?...
...its not a perfect world, but try not to lump the whole of us cops in one bad and untrustworthy light...its been my experinece that bad cops are punished/fired...bad decisions are dealt with appropriately...most of us would never lie for another because its the right thing to do...I know of a few cops with whom I've worked with or graduated from the academy get fired, demoted, or even do jail time...this is based on fact, not opinion....
...the more you type, the more you show how little you know about the realities of copwork and the people we make contact with...unless you do the job, you can't possibly know the job...the cops here know the job and can quantify what they write...
...LEO a gang?...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted December 08, 2005 02:04 PM
quote:
...so...save your breaths when you tell one of these officers that there are bigger crimes out there (rape, robbery, burglary, drugs, mayhem, domestic violence, etc.) to crack down on and solve because my fellow sportbikers and speed demons THIS job is what they competed for and were assigned to do...TRAFFIC ENFORCEMENT...
i suspect, or at least hope, that everyone who utters this statement realizes it is not the choice of the LEO on the street but the choice of management and government how LEO resources are allocated.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 08, 2005 02:35 PM
Edited By: trenace on 8 Dec 2005 14:43
Well, when it comes to the Florida Highway Patrol, I don't think it can be argued credibly that when deciding whether to apply for the job it was not the choice of the individual in question to go into traffic enforcement. Of course when deciding on the FHP as their choice they were personally deciding to go into traffic enforcement and not to go into departments that focus on going after crimes such as mentioned. Impossible to dispute really, I think.
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted December 08, 2005 03:11 PM
Edited By: worm~hole on 8 Dec 2005 15:12
...from personal experience and from talking ot other LEOs, it used to be that going to traffic, transportation, or other seemingly mundane units was a punishment/demotion/or other less than optimum assignment...but nowadays, its a choice and its very competative to get into...its usually the 'salty' ones that compete for these jobs because they've done the patrol thing and want to do something else...
...as I've said before: unless you're in the business, you can't possibly know the whys and hows of the job.....you can only guess....I'm here to inform as intelligently as possible for those who care to read...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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