gunner
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posted December 03, 2005 07:22 PM
 Edited By: gunner on 3 Dec 2005 19:26
Hey Five O............You're 100% correct he died doing his job. Sadly this time he wasn't chasing a BAD guy or a bank robber or a child molester or a killer. He was chasing a traffic violator. A murder charge is crazy and something that would happen in a Police State. What if your child accidently set the house on fire while playing with matches that he or she knew better than to be playing with, and while responding to the fire a police man or a fire man was killed. SHOULD you child be jailed for life and charged with murder???? The child knew they weren't suppose to be playing with matches but did anyway. They didn't mean for the house to catch fire, but it did. SO IS THE CHILD GUILTY OF MURDER????
IT WAS AN ACCIDENT the man died!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT WASN'T MURDER!!!!!!!!!!
  
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aliveagain
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posted December 03, 2005 08:05 PM
Sorry I can't agree with you guys.I don't want to second guess what the road was like.If it was a long stretch of a couple of miles before an exit,I'ld probably chase too and call for a back-up.My gripe is 30yrs is quite excessive and I hope it would be overturned or reduced on appeal.This was not premeditated but the result of a vehicular felonies,racing and ingaging in pursuit.Time,yes,30years,stupid.At $35,000 a year to house an inmate,Florida will spend $1,050,000 to punish somebody who in all likelihood was just scared of losing his license.
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OutsiderZX12R
Zone Head
Street Racer
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posted December 03, 2005 09:51 PM
The dude on the bike gets 30 years in prison, what if he would've gotten ran down by a car, would the car driver get the same penalty, especially if the cage driver is a government official??
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junior s
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posted December 03, 2005 09:58 PM
NO . And if it was a government official , he'd have his legal fees covered by the union or his office right ?
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slug
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Out in search of my mind...
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posted December 03, 2005 11:32 PM
no by the federal taxpayers.
and he got like 90 days of jailtime.
the gov't official ran a stop sign at 30 over the speed limit of the road he was travelingon. then continued after the crash
i think you all remember the congressman from one of the dakotas...
Did hte guy screw up? yes. Did he run? who knows. When i am riding NORMALLY i will do occasional rearward checks for ANY hazards. Why wouldn't someone that was going quickly do the same? The way the articles were written the officer was out of visual when he crashed...which means the rider had NO CLUE he was being chased.
30 years....ridiculous. When almost every case of a motorcyclist getting killed by a driver yields community service or even just a 'failure to yield' 100 dollar fine someone has GOT to do an assload of explaining why this particular case deserves 300000 times the punishment.
SOMEBODY give a logical reason why this sentence is even REMOTELY just or consistent? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Sorry to all the officer's family members. I hate to see or hear of ANYONE getting killed on the highways. But explain to me PLEASE why an officer's life being lost is any more tragic than the father of 3 kids getting run over on his motorcycle...and why one carries a 30 year penalty and the other one carries a 130 dollar fine
  
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zx12richard
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The Green Monster..
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posted December 04, 2005 01:51 AM
quote:
So what do all of you smart guys think the cops should do??? What about cars that will run 140mph plus??? Should we have a list of who to pursue and who to let go?? What if the guy on the bike ran into someone or ran them off the road and killed someone, should he be charged with anything then??? I am not being a smart ass here, I just want to know what you guys think. This officer was doing his job, to say he had this coming or that it is all his fault is crazy. I have said this before, but put yourself in the officers shoes. Say you meet a vehicle running the opposite way that you are. You are driving 60mph say south and he is driving 90mph north. How do you think you are going to catch him without running 120mph plus??? We do it everyday probably 10 to 15 times a day. 130mph is not out of the norm. I can assure you that the tires on that patrol car where speed rated. IF not, then someone should answer to that for sure. I dont know anything about this Florida case, but the people running should pay the price when they get caught. What the price is,it should be up to the courts. I read on this site all the time about you guys not stopping and your so fast why stop, etc. Thats BS. Maybe we can start posting all the motorcycle guys that die in crashes and point some fingers at them!!!
Not to sound like a smart ass 5.0 but if your doing 60 in a patrol car and a bike passes doing 90 the other way then its stupid to bother with chasing.....
Bike can accelrate from 90 to 150 in a heartbeat and get off that road.........
And forget about the what IFS What if he was this or that.... All that was known was he was a traffic violator....
I wouldn't have a problem with the pusuit if it was a car he was pusuing, then he'd have a chance.... I personally have checked out on many patrolmen the minute I see brake lights....
As for pointing the finger at the bikers as mentioned well its true too...... A helluva lot of bikers die at their own fault... Most every crash I ever had on or offroad I was pushing my luck...
Officer Haywood didn't deserve to die for pusuing but he shouldn't have tried it....... As for the biker, outright murderers have gotten less.....
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Hells Dark Lord
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living life, and loving it.
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posted December 04, 2005 04:43 AM
lets do the math here......if you are going 60MPHgoing 1 direction and I pass you in the other direction at 90 MPH....how far am I going to be ahead of you by the time you turn around?
If my Zx10 accelerates from 90mph, to 170 mph in 10 seconds, and it takes the cruiser 1 minute to get from 10mph (on the turn around) to 140 mph (optimistic top speed of a cruiser) how long will it take him to catch me??? answer....NEVER its impossible. I woudl be at my top speed before he was back up to 70 mph and have put so much distance on him that he would never see the bike again....unless I crash, run out of gas, or pull over....
So my question for you all, is why woudl the cop even think about it....5 O says they do it 10-15 times a day......ok, how long woudl you drive at those speeds without seeing the bike before you figured out you werent going to catch him? whats a reasonable amount of time?
Most cops, espicially you all that ride sportbikes no the futility of catching a sportbike if he doesnt want to be caught. My question is this, instead of pursuing and pushing the biker to and even fast speed, why not just call ahead? we all know the radio cant be outrun? why not just put other officers that are in front of the bike on alert and let them deal with it??
If the biker crashes you will pick him up and if he kills himself, well its his own fault for being a dumbass......
Dont get me wrong I dont advocate running from the police, I did it one time, and the cop knoew it was pointless and didnt even turn around. My buddy and I were doing roll ons with his ZX9 and my Zx10.....I passed the cop I was doing 165 mph...I just pinned it and got off at the next exit....then rode normally through the neighbor hood and right back to the house to park the bike.....this was a bonehead thing for me to do....and like I said I dont condone it.....and I woudl NEVER ride like that again on the street as to put myself in a postiion to have to do that again.....
I just think charging that guy with the death of that cop was insane.....from the facts I know of the case which are minimal, the cop swhould have radioed ahead and not started the pursuit....the bike would prolly not have accelerated any more and then the other officers were in a 90mph situation, instead of 130 or more.....just dont make sense to me is all.....
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Y2KZX12R
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CompetitionCNC.com
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posted December 04, 2005 07:04 AM
Bottom line is here in Connecticut there would have been no chase and no crash.
I'm sure the sentance will be overturned in apeals court.
I do think the policy of "no pursuit" sends mixed messages to people. Its debateable that it might encourage more people to flee knowing they cant chase. But the main reason for the policy here in CT. is money. The lawsuits are so expensive everytime this happens that it costs the state millions.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
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posted December 04, 2005 07:27 AM
I think the biker should have been charged for what he did wrong... speeding, evasion, etc.
The fact that the cop went out of control was incidental to his work... He might have been
cruising along on his way home at 80mph, got a blowout, and crashed. It just happened
during a chase, part of his job. Sad, but police have dangerous jobs.
Most of the times law is based on intent, and I doubt the biker intened to kill the cop. Did
he shoot at the officer? Or try to run him off the road? No...
Should the biker get jail time for running? Yes, but only for what HE did wrong.
Suppose an officer pulls me over and while walking up to my car he slips, falls into the road
and another car runs him over... am I responsible for his death because he died while
stopping me???
No...
I think this will be overturned during the appeal process...
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DaveInDaytona
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posted December 04, 2005 08:10 AM
A little info about Florida law.
In Florida if you are comitting a felony (which aggrevated fleeing or attempting to elude is here) and someone dies, even if it is your pasenger or someone with you, you are charged for their death.
This is not just a traffic law but since it is a felony to run in Florida then it applies. If the motorcyclist caused a citizen to crash on that day instead of the officer the charges would be the same. Even if the Porche driver he was racing crashed and died on his own the biker would be charged the same. The fact that an officer was killed only gives a minumin sentence to the crime, but doesn't change the charge.
From driving past that scene shortly after it happened and seeing where the turnaround took place I'd harldy call it a pursuit. My guess is that from where the officer made the turn to the crash site was maybe 2 miles. It's a four lane and very straight interstate with no exits for quite a while. On that day traffic was very light and scattered. Even running up the patrol car to speed to see if he would stop would take more time/distance than that run. I would guess you typically call off a pursuit after you see the person isn't going to stop. I don't think there was enough time to determine this.
Witneses were quoted to say that the officer passed cars at least once on the emergency lane and the rider was looking back. No one was specific when either of this happened. One of the things that I recently saw in news footage was an officer carrying a complete tread from a tire at the scene, still round and as wide as the original tire. No comments were made if this was from the patrol car, but specuation was made right after the crash that tire seperation was the cause, and these are speed rated tires.
An FHP officer did attempt a pursuit of the same bike on I-95 after this (about 25 miles away) and didn't continue to follow beacuse the rider was estimated to be traveling around 160 mph.
This officer wasn't a rookie with something to prove. He was trained and experienced and to speculate what he was thinking is pointless because you'll never know. The BOLO was on the radio long before this officer saw this bike, he just reported the location during the turn so he WAS one of the cars that was radioed ahead to so he could attempt to intercept.
All that being said, 30 years is very steep. But if you read the charges he was convicted of "aggravated manslaughter, vehicular homicide and fleeing or attempting to elude an officer causing death" it's pretty clear the judge is well withing the legal bounds.
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DaveInDaytona
Pro
Posts: 1696
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posted December 04, 2005 08:15 AM
quote:
Suppose an officer pulls me over and while walking up to my car he slips, falls into the road
and another car runs him over... am I responsible for his death because he died while
stopping me???
No
If you were caught while trying to elude and it happened then under Florida law, yes.
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DaytonaSportbikes Forum
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
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posted December 04, 2005 09:42 AM
....thanks, daveindaytona, good info.......we of the motorcycle riding community often think speeding is not a big deal because speed on a motorcycle is reached effortlessly, very often casually...,so consequences for getting caught or the consequences of the pursuit shouldn't be...but they are...as I've often said in the past: its better to educate than to hate...
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five 0
Expert Class
Posts: 215
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posted December 04, 2005 09:56 AM
Every case is different. You will have to know this case to say whether or not 30 years was right or wrong. I have not kept up with this case and dont know anything about it. I just know there are alot of bikers out there with the attitude that they will not stop if they can get away with it. If you see brake lights, turn and look, whatever. If you know the officer is after you and you do not stop, then you are responsible from that point. Its very easy to pull to the right and stop for the emergency vehicle. Thats what the law requires you to do anyway. If you running fast and really did not know they officer was after you then I would say you did not evade and lesser charges should apply. I would have to say in this case, they must know for sure that he was flat out running from this officer and maybe others.
Its sunday and I am watching football right now and TV. I thought of this and it makes a good point. Why do defensive players chase the offense player even when he is breaking away??? I dont see any of them just stop running after the running back even though he is off to the races. So they say.
Another thing that comes to mind: All things like this that happen can only hurt motorcycle's in general. Insurance rates, cost, etc. Who knows, the govt my even step in and outlaw them. Remember the dirt 3-wheelers???
Main thing, just be save and try to obey the laws. I know that might be hard for some of you.
Good Luck, 5-0
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gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted December 04, 2005 10:42 AM
Edited By: gunner on 4 Dec 2005 11:46
To my fellow LEO biker friends. Guys the simple facts are it's a money game just like everything else in life. Would more guys stop if the punishment fit the crime? Yes! The problem is the system that you uphold has created a huge money machine! Simply put there's NO such thing as being SPANKED anymore by the system. It's a Down Right BEATING!!!!!! There seems to be NO judgement used by the legal system once it goes past the officer that pulls you over. Yea some of you guys are riders yourself and will tune us up on the side of the road making us aware of the laws and possible outcome of our actions. This works! Yes we sometimes get caught up in the fun and forget what our actions cause. BUT! once the ticket is wrote and the system gets ahold of a guy it's OVER! The system is out to do nothing but drain every dollar they can from you! It's not a speeding ticket anymore. It's driving school (the system) It's insurance rates (the system) and the list goes on. Here's one that really gets my goat. You can usually go to court here and plead a case to the judge and he'll dismiss the ticket and not report it to the state, BUT! he always makes you pay court cost and Judge's retirement fees so he get's his piece of your ASS! He's going to make damn sure he get's you in his Personal system! What message does this send to us when they do this shit? The only one I see is they really don't give a damn what you did as long as you can pay them for their troubles. Maybe you guys should hold court on the side of the road when you pull us over and we'll be more likely to stop. Simple rules 5 to 10 over cost this much 10 to 20 over cost that much. Pay the fine on the spot and it's over! Let's not kid each other guys it's ALL about the MONEY! just like everything else in the world.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted December 04, 2005 10:46 AM
Edited By: trenace on 4 Dec 2005 10:52
Well, in Florida there's also "impound the bike."
Maybe the guy would not have have run if not in fear that his bike would be legally stolen from him if he did stop.
One aspect of the story I find dubious is these supposed witnesses claiming they saw the rider "look back."
Considering how far back the cop would have been, how many of us turn our heads to look absolutely directly, 180 degrees, behind us, versus using the mirrors?
And can a car driver or passenger really spot whether you are using the mirrors? Particularly if you are traveling 50 or more mph faster than they were?
Alternately, with the cop that far back, even if the rider DID look in his mirrors, would he necessarily have seen him? How would the motorist know that. However, I really question the motorist observing the rider checking the mirrors in the first place.
Very possibly some bullshit testimony there.
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scooter trash
Expert Class
Posts: 407
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posted December 04, 2005 10:46 AM
quote:
Who knows, the govt my even step in and outlaw them. Remember the dirt 3-wheelers???
Man, you ever ride one of those balloon tired 3 wheelers?
The very first one I rode (A Honda) that POS started bouncing like a weeble after coming off a small jump at about 20 mph. Scary shit and took every ounce of skill I had to keep from high siding. I haven't been on one since.
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted December 04, 2005 11:01 AM
you know what I give all props to most police, they have a very had job, and most of them bust their asses to keep us safe....
couple of things in this case, first off, I am truly sorry anyone lost their life... it is sad that someone speeding had an end like this....
Oh here are some issues..
if I remember correctly the officer was going onto the side of the road and passing vehicles in traffic, why???? that alone is not only putting yourself in danger but also the other vehicles your passing.
Did the drive of the Porsche also get 30 years in prison??? He was just as much at fault as the motorcycle?
and the bottom line is 30 years really just in this circumstance???? NO WAY IN HELL. this should have been a manslaughter charge not murder. I do feel the bike was a criminal here and is somewhat responsible.... somewhat!!! Do I feel the officer had the right to pursue, YES totally!! and he could have crashed and died at any speed. but in no way should he have been convicted for 30 years in prison!!
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
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posted December 04, 2005 11:02 AM
You know the worse part about stopping on a bike????? You WILL pay the price for every one of them that didn't stop......... I honestly feel like that happens....
Although the last three times I was stopped was by officers that was pretty cools and let me go..... But none speed related...
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238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
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posted December 04, 2005 11:33 AM
quote:
You know the worse part about stopping on a bike????? You WILL pay the price for every one of them that didn't stop......... I honestly feel like that happens....
Although the last three times I was stopped was by officers that was pretty cools and let me go..... But none speed related...
Right on... I got stopped in my Vette once... for 10 over... and cop was in a rage from the
last stop he made... So I get out and before I can say what's up, he's on me like a monkey
on bananas... cuffed me THEN beat on me...
Funny thig was, my ROOMATE was his partner, but had the day off... I realized who he was
but he didn't recognize me.
Finally , when it was all over, I was able to get out that his partner and I were roomies!!! 
Oh, by the way, it didn't go any further than that.... I could have ratted him out and fucked
his career, but I accepted a simple apology and later we all drank a beer or two.
So the flip side of this is that ALL bikers aren't bad either....
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238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
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posted December 04, 2005 11:36 AM
Edited By: 238mph on 4 Dec 2005 11:37
Oh, and something else that was funny... one day my roomate (the cop) comes home and
says ... "Were you out on your bike to day???" and I said yes.... then he says... "I guess you
didn't happen to notice any lights behind you for about two miles while you were doin'
about a buck-fifty..." and I said nope... He says.."Well, that was me asshole... trying to see if you
wanted to do lunch..." 
I never knew he was back there.....
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DaveInDaytona
Pro
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posted December 04, 2005 12:20 PM
This horse is about dead, but another point trenace brought up.
I'd be hard pressed to say if the guy looked back, and if he did I wouldn't know what he saw.
But when stopped and questioned " Williams later admitted to investigators that he drove his already-speeding motorcycle even faster after spotting the trooper, according to an investigative report" He also said that in court.
A personal note about taking a hit for someone else. I was pulled over by a county deputy 1 mile from my home after the deputy spotted me and u-turned through the median to get to me, after turning lights and siren on. This is on a 45 mph road in sleepy Ormond Beach, and I was going less than 45. I was ticketed for having an illegal license plate location, something he couldn't have possibly have seen traveling in the other direction on a divided road. He cited me the statute that said it must be visible from the rear of the vehicle, blah blah blah and then went back to his vehicle and proceeded to read my tag to the dispatcher from the seat of his car...... the tag he said wasn't visible.
I called a buddy with the VCSO and asked what this guy's deal was that day. He told me that office had a bike leave him in a pursuit not too long before he saw me and must have felt the need to take out his aggrevation on me. My lucky day.
I've never heard of taking a vehicle for eluding the police. Could be true, just never checked that one.
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zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
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posted December 04, 2005 12:24 PM
I had thew same thing happen to me on 1 on the way to Key West, I was riding in the middle of a pack of cars and I got yanked for illeagal plate location too....
He couldn't have seen it as I was in a pack... He just wanted to jack with a bike I believe..
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted December 04, 2005 02:40 PM
Hey Fish, hows this for your Hate Level now 
Hate level Dangerously High
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NinjaNick
Needs a job
'08 ZX14 (Blue)
Posts: 4558
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posted December 04, 2005 05:55 PM
As "GUNNER" mentioned also.
You're getting fucked if you pull over and wait at over 100mph. They say just stop, for what? Just as hard punishment as eluding almost. Misewell WOT and hit a few off roads and then relax like joe public and you don't have to deal with any consequences because you avoided them. Many laws on the road are pure rediculous, same with the consequences. Driving DRUNK! There is nothing wrong with those laws. I support them. This highspeed law is just stupid. The punishment you get.
Mise well make every vehicle run on electric and top speed of 50mph. We humans make them to use them.
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gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted December 04, 2005 08:55 PM
Edited By: gunner on 4 Dec 2005 21:00
Hell, I would pull over without any hesitation if I could pay the price and be done. Just look at the case that started this thread. THE SYSTEM at work. Capital murder case that probably cost the TAX payer a few hundred thousand and the defendant to be chapter 7. Everyone loses except THE SYSTEM!!!!!!!! Let's not forget that while he's in jail the Fed pays the state for keeping him there, and the state charges him a set dollar per day for everyday he's in there that he has to repay when and if he ever gets out. Now that he's broke and in jail the state will now provide him legal rep for all his appeals. The Fed pays the state for that as well. And the wheels go round and round. THE SYSTEM at work at it's best.
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