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posted March 14, 2002 08:21 PM
PLEASE HELP! Gray smoke question? Since I have what I think are some REAL IMPORTANT questions, I need to go into some detail on explaining what's happening. This is only so everyone will have a better understanding of this "problem" and won't have to ask me a bunch of questions to help me find some answers.
Your welcome to share your opinions here or you can e-mail me at adcraft@cei.net. I open to ANY suggestions on what might be causing this and what I can do to fix it. It's not like I can just run down to a local dyno and figure all this out. There isn't a DJ250 dyno with a sniffer that's within 250 miles of where I live. Probably more like 325 miles! I'm basically on my own here.
So, here we go...
Prior to the first Deal's Gap event last May, I checked my valves and compression. The bike had 13,600 miles on it. Everything was well within specs and the difference in the 4 compression readings were at or less then 1% difference (179~181). The spark plugs were replaced (for the second time), even though they looked to be in good condition. Their color was slightly darker then "paper sack" brown.
When ever I warmed the bike up, it is always on the front and rear stands. I do this so the oil in the case is level, instead of being towards one side if the bike was on it's kickstand. When the temp needle would be near or at the 1/2 way mark, I'd sometimes whack the throttle and puffs of a medium to light shade of gray smoke started would come out of my pipe.
It wasn't a lot and I really didn't worry too much about it. Since the valves, compression and plugs looked good, I figured that it was probably just some of the "burnt packing" blowing out. I didn't check was the condition of the packing in my Muzzy CF canister before I went to the Gap. I found out later that there was almost no packing left.
While at the Gap, I had my bike put on the portable DJ250 dyno. When the bike was nearing WFO, that gray smoke started coming out of my pipe. It was a little more then I had ever seen in my garage, but I never really "opened it up", like during a dyno run. Of course, I didn't really see any of the other bikes do this. I was kinda embarrassed, since it was enough to be noticed by Harry ZX12. HEY! You'd be embarrassed too, if Harry was ragging you!
The A/F ratio range of the 4 runs were as follows:
Naturally, he said my bike was running rich. I thought that this was probably the reason why it would blow smoke on at real high RPMs. All that build up crap from the now 16K miles of riding was probably caked up all the way from the exhaust ports to the end of the canister. I leaned the A/F ratio out a little by using the buttons on the PC III and figured I'd do some serious mapping when I got back home. Well... I forgot.
When I got home, I discovered that the canister had just a few small chunks of packing in it. The biggest one was about the size of a fist. Being the cheapskate that I am, instead spending $25 for the Muzzy replacement packing, I just bought a couple of packages of "generic" fiberglass packing for a dirtbike silencer. I just loosely stuffed it around the "screen tube" in the canister.
I learned two things from this. One, the stuff really STINKS when it gets hot and two, it doesn't last that long. Every time I'd whack the throttle, I could see little bits of the packing blow out. When I'd look in the canister and could see the loose fibers sticking though the screen tube in the canister. Sometimes, I couldn't tell for sure if it was the packing or that gray smoke.
When I went back to the Gap in September, Lucky (Mark) was kind enough to let me ride his 12R. While I was following him (you didn't think I be in front of him, even on HIS bike... did you?), I saw my bike puff smoke a couple of times. Of course, I didn't really worry about it, since I knew he was probably give my bike the type of REAL workout it deserved.
When I got back, I repacked the canister with the same type of packing. This time, I used three packages and packed it tightly around the canister's screen tube. What was so funny was when I'd go out riding with some of my buddies, they said that packing smelled like piss (and it did for a while). Still, no one mentioned anything about any smoke.
Around 28K miles, I rechecked my valves, compression and plugs again. The valves had gotten a little tighter, but were still well within tolerance. The compression was also basically unchanged. What was different was the spark plugs. They were a lot darker then the plugs they replaced. There wasn't really any kind of build up or "caking" and they were not "wet" from oil or gas. They were a lot darker brown (almost black). I cleaned them off and reinstalled them. BTW, I've always used the NGK CR9EK-PA plugs.
When Dave in Daytona dyno'ed his bike at the Gap in September, they said his A/F ratio was perfect. Since his bike was set up very similar to mine (except his timing was at +5° and mine is around +2°~+2.5°), I tried his PC III map. There was a noticeable change in how my bike performed. Still, if I took a paper towel and wiped the inside of the tip on my canister, there would still be some black soot there. There wouldn't be a lot there. One or two wipes with a paper towel and it would be clean.
The bike isn't using or leaking any oil. There's not a big difference between the amount I drain verses what I put back in (3 quarts). I've always check my oil level before and after each ride. There's never been a problem there. When I removed the oil pan to do the oil bypass modification, the pan was clean enough to eat of. As always, I strained the used oil through a coffee filter and found no debris or shavings (as usual).
As discussed in a previous thread, while doing the mods and checking everything, I also cleaned the reed valves on top of the valve cover. There was a serious build up there. Of course, they also had not been cleaned in close to 15K miles. When I put the O2 sensor in my header for my A/F meter, I first completely cleaned out the inside of the header with a industrial solvent. Everything seemed to check out just fine.
Lately, I've notice that after warming up the bike, it will blow some gray smoke almost every time I seriously whack the throttle and hold it WFO for a fraction second (ALWAYS backing off before it can hit the rev limiter). Each successive time I do it, there is LESS and less smoke coming out each time.
There is no "lingering" smoke that comes out when I let off the throttle. It won't matter if I chop it or roll it off slowly. It NEVER has ANY sign of smoking while idling (warm or cold) or under normal acceleration. It only happens during real hard acceleration. It might happen during a hard down shift where the RPMs will go over 9K.
Last weekend, I went on a 250 mile ride of some serious twisties with a 916 and a MV Agusta F4. Needless to say, I planned on "taking them to school"... and I did. Towards the end of the day, the 916 rider said he'd see an occasionally puff of blueish grey smoke come out of my bike. Since he said "blueish", I've been a little worried. I truly believe that he has confused the medium gray color and there is NO blue smoke coming out at all. He's not very mechanical and he has only been back into riding bikes for 2 months (after a 8 year break).
I'm guessing that the smoke is a combination of the bike STILL running rich and the BS packing I'm using can't stand the heat and is burning up. After all, it's designed to be used in a 2 stroke dirtbike silencer. The temperatures can't be near as high as what's inside the CF canister. Plus, if that packing was on a 2 stroke, it'd eventually get soaked in oil from the exhaust.
I've looked at the map I'm currently running and compared it to my old map. Both of them are identical to Dynojet's original Muzzy map after 2500 RPM. Below that, the new map is richer up to 40% TP and it's leaner above 40%. My new halmeter is digital and reads in voltage. It's real sensitive to any movement in the throttle position. I'm using a self heating sensor, so I'm comfortable in it's accuracy.
From what I understand, these meters readings are most accurate only at WFO. Is this right? NE Dyno (were I got the meter from) say a reading of .875v is optimal. Of course, the readings will bounce all over the place while I'm riding through the twisties, just like they said it would.
What I'm wondering is the A/F ratio normally higher when the engine is warm and at idle? What about at a steady RPM, like in the 5K to 9K range. The reading is fairly stable, but is substantially higher then .875v. It's more in the .925~.975v range at the steady midrange RPM and it's usually over 1.000v at idle. The digital halmeter is a "cool gizmo", but in the hands of someone who doesn't have a clue on how to use it, that's all it is... a "cool gizmo".
I'd really like to use my halmeter as a "real time" tuning tool, but since the folks at NE Dyno are more "car" and drag racing oriented, I can't imagine them being of much help. I think I can eventually take the voltage numbers and come close to figuring out how they would convert to A/F ratios. It's just that beyond that, I'm clueless on what I'm doing with it.
I've been told that the A/F chart on a dyno run isn't the most absolute accurate in showing the true numbers, but it fairly close. Still, it makes me wonder how the dyno gets good A/F readings at anything less then WFO?
So what the deal here?
Is it too rich?
Is it the bogus "generic" dirtbike packing?
Is it a combination of both?
Since the smoke has increased (in numer of occurances, NOT in the amount of smoke) at about the same time I tightly repacked the canister, has the additional packing made the bike run richer (remember, the plugs looked real good and it did smoke as often when there was NO packing in the canister)?
If I address these to items, is there going to be so much crap caked up on everything, that I won't be able to just "blow it out over time"?
Is my engine getting read to take a vacation... PERMANENTLY?
PLEASE! HELP! I'M FREAKING OUT HERE!
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
posted March 14, 2002 09:23 PM
Edited By: Scooter on 14 Mar 2002 21:24
Red, the parts you need are found here. Check under "Performance" and "Replacement". Click Here
Wish I could be of more assistance.
quote:Lately, I've notice that after warming up the bike, it will blow some gray smoke almost every time I seriously whack the throttle and hold it WFO for a fraction second (ALWAYS backing off before it can hit the rev limiter). Each successive time I do it, there is LESS and less smoke coming out each time.
....after warming up(assuming at idle)....there is less and less coming out each time.
Are you using the fast idle ? Could it just be burning the inefficient leftovers of the warmup? Have you tried successive blips of the throttle after a good run while the bike is at operating conditions and not idling conditions? Just a guess. FWIW my pipe is as clean as it was new. Literally no residue whatsoever. But this is bone stock after 7K miles.
____________
"Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional."
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
posted March 15, 2002 04:58 AM
For what it's worth...... Sounds to me like your bike is "loading up" during idle. Maybe a tad rich. Is it puffing the smoke when you're out riding after you've let off the bike and get back on it???? Or just when you hammer on it from a steady rpm???
Either way I believe you are dealing with a rich condition and the dark plugs support this theory.
____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
posted March 15, 2002 06:09 AM
Just my 2 cents, put a set of K&Ns or stock filters back in your bike, set the timing and TPS back to OEM, install a new set of OEM plugs, remap with basic Muzzys' map from Dynojet, repack your pipe with the Muzzys' packing, and get to a DJ tuning center and get a automated custom map.
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posted March 15, 2002 07:26 AM
This is what I'm needing to hear! Ninjaman, you've taken my long ass post and narrowed it down to one statement. Yes, it basically ONLY does it just when I hammer on it from a steady rpm.
Koz, I have checked my filters and TPS voltage and they are fine. I will try returning the timing back and changing the plugs tonight. I'll also "double check" the filers and TPS.
Sadly, not only is "distance" a problem in getting to a dyno... so are "funds". The "pastor" has kinda fallen onto "hard times" (for now). I really can't even afford the 300+ mile trip to the nearest, much less the expense of getting the bike remapped. That's just not an option at this time.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
posted March 15, 2002 07:39 AM
Map editting time..... redelk all I can say is that you're gonna have to lean your bike out some. Map tweaking time, I wish you luck as I know this will probably be a time consuming project. But you can do it man, after all you're from Arkansas. ____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
The previous posts are correct, the light gray/white smoke is unburned gas. Your dumping too much gas in the engine somewhere in that map. As long as the smoke isn't blue it's probably raw gas, happens a lot on bikes with accelerator pumps Mikuni smoothbores etc.
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
posted March 15, 2002 01:33 PM
As long as you don't gas wipe... As long as the bike is running ok, rich is a safer place to be than lean. Until you have the cake to dyno, re-map, buy real packing and go back and troubleshoot from a logical (known) point, just ride and enjoy. If it smokes a little, so what. You are just keeping the mosquitoes off of the Hayabusa behind you.
Rocket
____________
If I get any smarter, my head will explode!
posted March 15, 2002 05:22 PM
I thought that a 1v O2 sensor would read about .45 v. at peak efficiency/power (14.7:1 air to fuel). .875 v would be running it quite rich, although you want it to be richer at the top to get more power, correct? This is from all the reading I have done when I thought about making my own O2 meter.
0.1 v ------------------.45v------------------.95v
Lean-----------------stoichiometric--------Rich
Fuel efficient---------even mix----------More Power
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posted March 15, 2002 07:50 PM
Is it blue or is it gray? I spoke with my riding buddy again today and he swears it was BLUE smoke! He said he saw a puff almost every time I whould upshift! ARGH! Since I don't "swap bikes" with other riders that often, I haven't rode behind my own bike since last September.
Going home soon to check the compression and change the oil and plugs. I'm also going to start checking into the cells on my map. I have ordered the packing for the canister through my dealer, but it won't be in till the end of next week (at best).
Teamspeed, I'm just going on the instructions that came with the meter from NE Dyno. The "chart" is also posted at their website. (http://www.nedyno.com) I don't think that my O2 sensor is a 1v version, since I have seen reading above 1.1v. Like I said earlier, I don't know anything about these O2 sensors, so I can't swear to it. The sensor was sent to me as a "gift" since I was having trouble finding a self heating one locally.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
posted March 15, 2002 08:20 PM
Redelk, MY bike is doing the same thing now that I am using your (Dave in..) map. Noticed it last weekend when we went out. I will be going to Sabin as soon as I get the rest of my goodies in. You are welcome to ride down there with me or I can just send you my new map since we are close to the same elevation. Let me know. I think I am going to switch over to the Muzzy Race map on Easy's site til then!
____________
RED NINJAS RULE!!
posted March 15, 2002 09:21 PM
Edited By: TeamSpeed on 16 Mar 2002 05:37
All my research kept stating the maximum power is made near the richer end (below 14.7:1), and more economy near the leaner end (above 14.7:1). For example, http://www.buckeyetriumphs.org/technical/Carbs/UsingAFMonitor/UsingAFMonitor.htm
But you are saying that above (leaning out the mixture) the optimal value 14.7:1 is where the max. power can be made. I understand you don't dare run it too lean, but these sites that show how to use A/F Meters and build them, keep stating that more power is made on the richer side (less than 14.7:1). I believe you guys, you have played with all the mappings and made your bikes scream, I am just trying to make heads or tails of all the web sites that describe A/F monitoring and tuning.
quote:All my research kept stating the maximum power is made near the richer end (>14.7:1), and more economy below 14.7:1. For example, http://www.buckeyetriumphs.org/technical/Carbs/UsingAFMonitor/UsingAFMonitor.htm
But you are saying that below optimal value 14.7:1 is where the max. power can be made. I understand you don't dare run it too lean, but these sites that show how to use A/F Meters and build them, keep stating that more power is made on the richer side. I believe you guys, you have played with all the mappings and made your bikes scream, I am just trying to make heads or tails of all the web sites that describe A/F monitoring and tuning.
Maybe I'm mis-reading your post? You are claiming an optimal air/fuel ratio of 14.7:1. I can't say that I agree with that, but let's assume for argument's sake that 14.7:1 is optimal. A lower ratio (13.2:1 for example) would be richer, and a higher ratio (15.8:1 for example) would be leaner. Sounds like you had it backwards! Most everything I've read from the "top" ZX-12R tuners in the last two years would indicate that something around 13.0:1 - 13.2:1 air fuel ratio is optimum for power with the 12R engine.
RedElk - You're getting some miles on your engine now... have you considered the valve guides as the culprit for the puffing of smoke? Just something to consider.
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posted March 16, 2002 12:24 AM
If I'd hurry up and file my taxes.... I might have the dead presidents to make the trip with you, kawachan! I guess I better hurry up and burn that CD or you won't tell me when your leavin', huh?
supersonic, no I haven't really thought about the valve guides. I'd hope at a mere 30K, that wouldn't be it. I put almost 69K on my '97 7R and never had a problem like this or even have to adjust the valves once. Of course it ran with 4 qts. instead of 3, like the 12R. Not knowing anything about valve guides, I wouldn't know if that makes any difference. I do find a little reassurance in kawachan having a similar experience. He has a lot less mileage on his engine then mine.
With scattered showers predicted for this weekend, it looks like I'll have plenty of time to inspect, test, replace and do some map messin'. I do thank you for the suggestion and I will keep it in mind. Would worn guides show up in a compression test?
BTW, I agree with you on the A/F ratios. I don't know about Triumphs with carbs, but everyone from Doug to swft and Y2K to kcadby, have all indicated that around 13.2~13.4 is optimal. Here's how it reads on NE Dyno's site,
.600v/14.6:1 Dangerously Lean
.700v/14.5:1 Getting lean 14.5:1
.800v/14.2:1 Max power(Lean) normally aspirated
.875v/13.5:1 Max Power normally aspirated
.900v/13.2:1 Max Power (Rich) (NOS,blower,Turbo)
1.00v/12.5:1 Very Rich
To me, it sounds like if someone is running at 14.7:1, they'll be using their pistons for ashtrays on the shop bench. Depending on how big the holes that were burned in the them, of course. Then they could use them for funnels!
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
posted March 16, 2002 01:39 AM
Edited By: supersonic on 16 Mar 2002 01:54
This matter can get quite complex!! If the discharge from your exhaust is always only grey/dark grey/black smoke I'd suspect a too rich air/fuel mixture. And that's assuming that someone observes that output from your exhaust while you're riding the bike and the engine is "seeing a load". I wouldn't get too excited about seeing a puff of grey/black smoke from the exhaust while the bike is up on stands and engine doesn't see a load on it.
As far as dyno runs go.... running it on the dyno isn't the same load as putting your butt on the bike and running down the highway. For example - on a Dynojet DJ150/200/250 the front wheel of the bike is held stationary and the rear wheel "spools up" the drum on the dyno. Watch what happens during the dyno run --- the front wheel/tire is basically up against a brick wall and the rear of the bike raises higher and higher as more power is produced. On the dyno testing you will almost certainly have a "rider" on board and you may or may not have the rear of the bike strapped to the dyno. What am I yacking about here? The dyno is supposed to be telling you what horsepower is being delivered to the rear wheel, but the reading on the dyno is going to be compromised by many factors --- is the rear of the bike strapped down on the dyno (and how much force on the straps?); how much force is the guy "riding the bike" on the dyno applying to the rear wheel?; what tire pressure do you have in the rear tire, etc... etc... The bike is rotating on it's vertical axis (basically unloading the engine more and more as the power is increased).
Bottom line - have someone follow you while you're putting your bike through it's paces and report back to you what it is doing. Tell them what signs you are looking for (grey smoke, black smoke, blue smoke, etc...). Make sure they understand exactly what it is they are looking for!! If they are seeing a puff of blue smoke during hard upshifts I wouldn't get too excited about it - that is a typical sign of worn valve guides and your bike could definitely show signs of that at the mileage and use you have. I doubt that it would show up on a compression check.
quote:Lately, I've notice that after warming up the bike, it will blow some gray smoke almost every time I seriously whack the throttle and hold it WFO for a fraction second (ALWAYS backing off before it can hit the rev limiter). Each successive time I do it, there is LESS and less smoke coming out each time.
Have you taken the canister off and tried this same test with just the header and mid pipe? That would eliminate any concerns with the packing.
posted March 16, 2002 05:33 AM
Edited By: TeamSpeed on 16 Mar 2002 05:42
Yes, I mixed up the > and < 14.7 in my second post, but I guess I was correct in my first post. The O2 reads a higher voltage the more rich the exhaust, and 13.0 (.85 - .875 v)would read greater than .45v (14.7:1 a/f), therefore, a richer mix will result in more power. I will try to keep my meter in this range as I start to tune my bike, then. Good info to know. I'm getting there. Now, if I only I can figure out the timing using my PC3r, that is where the real danger is, right?
The 14.7:1 (lambda ratio) seems to be the holy grail of a/f ratios, it is the intersection of the fuel efficiency graph and the power graph, kinda like where torque and hp meet each other on a dyno graph. Slightly richer results in more power (but not too rich to drown the bike), and leaner results in less power, but better fuel efficiency (not too lean to melt the pistons).
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posted March 18, 2002 07:31 PM
WEEKEND TESTING AND RESULTS 1. CHANGE OIL & FILTER
After draining the oil and filter into a clean container, I strained it through a coffee filter (as I always do). No surprises there. If there was anything "major", it could have been trapped in the filter and I wasn't going to put out the effort to tear it open.
I also measured the amount of oil drained. It appears that it was around 2650~2750 cc. This isn't counting what wasn't easily poured out of oil drain tub (one of those "sealed" things with a spout) and what was still in the filter. There's 2839 cc in 3 quarts, IF you got EVERY DROP to pour out. So, after less then 2000 miles, it doesn't look like the engine is using oil and it's still fairly clean.
2. COMPRESSION CHECK
The might not of indicated anything (i.e. worn valve guides), but it was comforting to know that my compression is STILL identical to the check at 13,600 miles. I used the same gauge as before. I've heard that the numbers will vary from gauge to gauge and that's why the tolerance is so wide. Basically, all of them checked out at 180 PSI with the engine still warm.
3. CHANGED THE SPARK PLUGS
I had been told by an "old school" mechanic that the truest reading of a sparkplug was when the bike was under a load, the throttle was pinned and then the engine was killed. Since this wasn't practical (it was raining) and I know it wouldn't be accurate without it being under a load... I did it on the stands. Just for the heck of it.
Well, it wasn't accurate, but it did almost "white tip" the plugs as well as cleaned off the almost black coating they previously had. The old plugs were replaced anyway.
4. INSPECT AND CLEAN THE AIR FILTERS
The filters didn't need it, but I blew them out, cleaned them, re-oiled them and re-greased the foam edges. I also inspected the airbox and intake areas. Having done all this just a few thousand miles ago... again, no surprises here.
5. TIME TO GET PACKING
Actually, it was "unpacking". I removed about a third of the packing from the overstuffed canister.
6. PC III MAP "FOREPLAY"
I compared all the Muzzy maps I had either created myself or were sent to me over the years. The majority of them were basically the "standard" Muzzy map with a few tweaks in the lower end (under 2500 RPM). Most of them were "enriched" in a attempt to smooth out the idle.
As a "baseline", I used the standard Dynojet Muzzy map. I tried both the "zero" and "stock pipe" maps, but neither one were worth a shit. There was one thing that became instantly obvious. The halmeter was reading SUBSTANTIALLY leaner then it was with any of the prior maps. Again, the halmeter isn't really ment for accurate readings at idle, but the numbers were almost HALF of previous readings at idle.
For the purposes of "just messin' around", I made minor adjustments of 1~3 "units" per cell. This too, had a leaning effect according to the halmeter. It also COMPLETELY eleminated ANY smoking while wacking the throttle of a warm engine, while it was on the stands. It's been well over a year since it had done this. This was a BIG SURPRISE! Again, rains prevented any serious "field testing".
7. CHECK TPS VOLTAGE
Even though I hadn't messed with it since I got my PCIII, I thought I'd take Koz's suggestion and check it again. I had returned it back to 1.085v as soon as I got the PC III and hadn't checked it in over 15K miles. THe specs are 1.084v~1.086v. Here was a BIG SURPRISE! The voltage was 1.100v! With something that has a tight tolerance of less then .2%, mne was WAY OFF!. Naturally, I returned it to the proper voltage.
Now, all I have to do is wait for it to stop raining so I can see if all this actually made any difference. Thak for all the tips and suggestions.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
posted March 18, 2002 07:57 PM
After reading most of the posts here, it seems that everyone is missing one important point. The crankcase vents directly into the airbox. Most likely the vacuum created by the air intakes and the pressure in the crankcase is causing a slug of oil vapors to make it into the airbox and you will have blue grey smoke. An indication of this happening is carbon buildup on the intake valves. Something to consider.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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posted March 18, 2002 11:17 PM
That's the finest hay money can buy... ... oh one who walk with a limp! We know how you computer geeks are! Hell, you probably put on of dem vir-asses in that there map and got my PC III all plum sick!
Ted, wouldn't the oil vapors leave so type of film or something in the airbox? Especially where the tube enters the airbox? Just an uneducated thought. I'd hope that it'd leave some other sign the build up on the intake valves (i.e. on the plugs or something). Yanking the head or pulling a valve is a little more then I'd want to do. That is, unless it got worse.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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