mhsilver12r
Parking Attendant
Posts: 8
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posted March 02, 2002 06:28 AM
to run or not to run!!!!
I ran across this article yesterday. Don't think I'll be runnin' from the law any tme soon! 3rd degree felony and jail time - probably loose the bike also........DAMN!
Crackdown Coming On Drivers Who Try To Evade Police....
Evading a pursuing police officer was just a misdemeanor until the law changed September 1, 2001. Now the Williamson County District Attorney says he's going to get tough on those lawbreakers. John Bradley, the Williamson County DA told KEYE News: "The reputation in Williamson County is if you do the crime, you do the time, and I think if we target this particular offense, we can make a difference." Just how tough can they get on fleeing suspects? Under the new law, police can seize the vehicle and charge suspects with the highest offense possible. "If we can convince a jury or judge that in the course of evading, that car was a deadly weapon, then that offense is increased to a 3rd degree felony and punishment is up to ten years in prison," said Bradley. Williamson County isn't alone in the crackdown. Other local police agencies, including Travis County, say they will also prosecute to the highest extent of the law.
  
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ROCKET J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted March 03, 2002 01:09 AM
Mr Orwell, your world is ready...
Yeah, let's increase their powers some more. I can't wait to live in a police state.
Rocket
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22348bCVC
Zone Head
Posts: 798
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posted March 03, 2002 02:10 AM
quote:
Yeah, let's increase their powers some more. I can't wait to live in a police state.
Rocket
...spoken like a person who never lost an innocent loved one to a 'runner' that crashed into them or caused a crash
...how else do we stop the violence and discourage bad behavior?...its a necessary evil, sad but true....
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12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
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posted March 03, 2002 07:45 AM
I can't believe the carnage that takes place on the streets from fleeing drivers. Anything we can do to stop it is fine by me. I swear, if one of these bastards blows a stoplight and kills my family member, I will not rest until revenge is dished out.
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ROCKET J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted March 03, 2002 09:07 AM
The police are our bestest friends...
...spoken like a person who never lost an innocent loved one to a 'runner' that crashed into them or caused a crash
...how else do we stop the violence and discourage bad behavior?...its a necessary evil, sad but true....
Spoken like somebody that doesn't understand that "fight or flee" is ingrained in the psyche of EVERYBODY.
Criminals are criminals. Consequences don't matter. What do you expect them to do when they are cornered or chased?
That is why they have invented the soft chase.
Why do you think the Europeans have such a hard-on for bikes like ours, when many countries over there produce automobiles that will top end a ZX-12R?
Of course it is dangerous to flee. I do find it kind of hypocritical to talk about "I go 200 mph on the street or I street race, and then bitch when somebody speeds around town trying to elude the police.
Rocket
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ROCKET J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted March 03, 2002 09:17 AM
Tonight on fox
quote:
I can't believe the carnage that takes place on the streets from fleeing drivers. Anything we can do to stop it is fine by me. I swear, if one of these bastards blows a stoplight and kills my family member, I will not rest until revenge is dished out.
12R, quit watching that "Greatest Police Chases" on Fox with that blow-dried faggot from Ft. Lauderdale. God, I hate that guy. Besides, he only shows the ones where the bad guy gets caught or dies.
Revenge? Don't you mean justice? That comes from the court system. If not, then the same police that you just over-empowered, will be coming to take you from your loved ones.
ROCKET
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ROCKET J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted March 03, 2002 09:25 AM
Get down off your damn soapbox, Jeff....
Guys, I am not trying to be heavy handed or anything. I will tell you that I believe the cops cause half of their own problems when it comes to a chase. I will also tell you that if one of my family members was killed by one of these idiots, I would be the first to turn vigilante and take my revenge.
It just drives me crazy when people offhandedly give up freedoms that millions have fought and died for, and that people the world over are envious of, to this day.
Rocket
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If I get any smarter, my head will explode!
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted March 03, 2002 09:33 AM
Here is the problem with them pulling this tough on people fleeing crap: All you have to do is hesitate pulling over for whatever reason like not finding a safe place to pull over or not see them in your mirrors etc. Then they sock it to you.
I don't want to see anyone flee and endanger anyone, but on the other hand I'm not above splitting out of a situation on a lonely road and hiding out.
I don't care for this police state crap, and watch out boys and girls Ascroft wants just that, including what you do in your own bedroom.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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22348bCVC
Zone Head
Posts: 798
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posted March 03, 2002 11:19 AM
 Edited By: 22348bCVC on 3 Mar 2002 13:10
quote:
Guys, I am not trying to be heavy handed or anything. I will tell you that I believe the cops cause half of their own problems when it comes to a chase. I will also tell you that if one of my family members was killed by one of these idiots, I would be the first to turn vigilante and take my revenge.
It just drives me crazy when people offhandedly give up freedoms that millions have fought and died for, and that people the world over are envious of, to this day.
Rocket
...really?...so tell me...how do cops cause half their own problems when it comes to a chase?...I know what happens/happened when I am/was in a pursuit...I'm curious on your take on how we in law enforcement 'cause half of our own problems'...I already know what your opinion is regarding police states...and yes, I'm a cop (some people here know this and I'm damn proud to be one) and my take is obvious (at least about THIS topic)...let's not make this into an 'us vs them' debate'...this is important...other cops or pro-L.E. types jump in, too, if you like...I am always open to fair, constructive critisism, opinions, etc....and you, Rocket?...and before we proceed, I will tell you that citizens' attitudes regarding pursuits/chases are PROBABLY a reflection of where they're from geographically, the size of their cities, their law enforcement agency's pursuit/chase policies (if they even have an intimate knowledge of it at all), and what has happened to them during any contact between them and law enforcement...bear in mind that in regards to one's 'freedoms', it is my opinion that the irony of a person intellectually choosing between CIVIL OBEDIENCE (what 'basically' keeps our society 'safe', ie. 'don't run') and CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE (and its obvious and predictable consequences, ie. 'run'), is a never-ending battle to the person who 'consciously and selectively' chooses which side of the coin suits him/her best as the situation unfolds...as you essentially stated, 'fight or flight'...working within that realm on a daily basis, I understand it better than you think...if you're also a cop, you'd know what I'm talking about...ok, fire away...this should be a good, healthy one.....
...also...I know there are times/places when/where we like 'to have our fun'...we know 'where' to go and we know 'when' to ride...that's the reality of it, I know it well and I'm not kidding myself, the 'hypocracy' of it all, even...and I imagine and know that there ARE riders who actually 'race' or 'go 200mph' on the street on 200mph bikes....and sometimes some of them stop when they've been caught doing what they do...I believe its 'wrong' to race or go dangerously fast on the street (CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE)...I also believe stopping is the 'right' thing to do when you've been caught (CIVIL OBEDIENCE)...it keeps the chases/pursuits down to a minimum (the rider took his/her chances, now they should face the consequences)...so who I ask you, 'caused' the pursuit and its inherent dangers in the first place?
...and one more thing...the cops who are 'over-empowered' (as you've described us to be), aren't out to get you, Rocket...we may just want to talk to you if we have probable or reasonable cause...what we really, really want to get are the really, really bad and nasty ones out there...but sometimes regular folk just don't know how to get along and be civil with each other, so we're tasked to go there to keep the peace with some of their petty-ass bullshit 
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ROCKET J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted March 03, 2002 01:02 PM
Edited By: ROCKET J on 3 Mar 2002 15:16
The short answer...
Because EVERY cop from EVERY jurisdiction within radio range of "attention all cars, all departments" thinks it is a damn game, and proceeds at breakneck speed to the area of the chase and gets in line with everybody else and goes round and round and up and down streets until the "perp" is caught. No matter what the offence. Or the carnage. I have personally seen this at least 20 times in my life.
CVC, sorry but ANYBODY in power needs to constantly be questioned and held accountable. Let's be realistic here, you guys are not all bad. I would say mostly good. Not all cops are good so don't act like they are. The percentage of good cops is not as high as it used to be. Their attitude has changed. All that seems to be graduating now are these disrespectful, smart ass, power trip, high and tight haircut wearing, punks.
Admit to things like speeding tickets are a way of revenue, nothing more. Maybe in school zones they are ok, but because you guys or your wives can't get one don't act like they are no big deal. People will respect you if you come clean.
I am not totally in the dark. I do have some friends who are police officers. My martial arts instructor is a cop (as well as a S.W.A.T. team member, and a self defense instructor). We have had many discussions about this and usually end up agreeing to disagree. I respect him and his opinions as I do you and your opinions. Every young boy has thoughts of growing up and being a cop. It is a noble and just calling. Maybe it is because of that desire as a youngster, that when you get older, when you see what kind of people end up actually getting a badge, and how they act, that you realize how far short of the ideal they fall.
Rocket
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted March 03, 2002 01:05 PM
My name is Ted and I am a speed and wheelie aholic. As for cops I mean real cops they guys who protect and serve and keep the streets safe are on top of the food chain in my books. But for the shitheads that sit on the side of the road roasting their nuts with a radar gun(good thing because we don't want them to procreate) busting someone breaking the speed limit endangering no one, that is a bottom feeder, right under lawyers and used car salesman. I always stop when I see red lights behind me, but if it is going the other way and bozo didn't get its lights on in front of me well if I have a chance (of course without endangering anyone but myself) I am history. Most of those goons should be ashamed of themselves. Everyday I go to work, not a day goes by where some shithead isn't following too close or driving like shit and the NHP does nothing. Oh, but let me speed 10 MPH over the speed limit on a lonely road I get a fucking ticket. Thats bullshit.
Anyway the fuzz have radios, back off, let the runner slow down and pop his ass down the road. If he thinks he got away he will slow down and that is more important than their precious ticket.
IMHO
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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22348bCVC
Zone Head
Posts: 798
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posted March 03, 2002 01:30 PM
Good points TedG and Rocket...I'll get back to you, but right now, I gotta suit up and prep my K9...later!
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22348bCVC
Zone Head
Posts: 798
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posted March 03, 2002 04:23 PM
good cop vs bad cop & the law
Rocket, like I said, "Know your department's pursuit policies." Do you have any substantive information that would support the 'pursuit' as a 'game'...'no matter what the offense?" You haven't explained how cops "cause half their own problems." I'm still curious.
You're ABSOLUTELY right, and I'd hope that everyone shares your opinion about 'authority' as long as we're civil and reasonable about it. Those in power SHOULD be kept in check. And for the most part, we are. But let's be reasonable, once the majority has voted to 'empower' certain people to do their work, please allow these people to do their work the way it was meant to be. And if an officer embelishes and interprets of the law in a negative way and enforces his/her 'embelished laws', they need to be called on it and held accountable.
Some cops shouldn't be cops in the first place. The hiring pool is a product of our very own society. We can hope that we've chosen only the very best and ethical people, and most psychologically balanced individuals to do this kind of work. In spite of what you or others here may have experienced, I think its relatively better now than it used to be when cops 'used to kick ass and take names later.' Now we take names, make an arrest, and hope the juducial system works for us all in the favor of good. Attitudes HAVE changed and continue to evolve on both sides of the badge. Cause and effect, effect causes, etc. And I love my high-n-tight!
Tickets RESULT in SOME revenue, but its not THE SOURCE of revenue. And you'd be surprised to know that some cops, their family members, and friends DO get tickets. Perhaps not as many, but we do. Its not beyond some cops out there to 'burn their own' or, on the other hand, extend 'professional courtesy' to fellow officers. Some cops actually give warnings to EVERYBODY. E V E R Y B O D Y.
Everybody understands the immediate financial burden of being hit in the pocketbook or the inconvenience of having their driving priveleges taken away. Its an effective and perhaps 'humane' method of 'behavior modification.' Everybody is subject to a ticket. My friend (whose husband is also an officer) got a ticket a few months ago. I personally know of an officer who recently got a ticket.
And finally...I have been a cop for 16 of my past 47 years. I have experienced incompetent and rude treatment by cops before I became a cop. I have worked with and seen first hand of these 'punk' cops you describe. I also work with some of the most outstanding and professional people I've ever had the privelege of working with...and funny as hell, too! I can truely appreciate the difficulty on both sides of the badge. You, on the other hand, have only seen and experienced a very limited side of what its like on 'this side' of the badge through acquaintances and the occasional personal experience. You are entitled to your set opinions as they are at the moment, however. And you're entitled to hold fast to your opinions as I and others will ours. But please try to gather more 'facts' or legit info before you spiral down your opinions about the law, what lawmen are tasked to do, and how we lawmen think and feel about what we're tasked to do. And I'll continue to educate myself as to why some people are so violent to one another. Hey, I'm just doin' my job...
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22348bCVC
Zone Head
Posts: 798
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posted March 03, 2002 04:39 PM
TedG
Ted, what can I say to that? A well manicured, lonely, desolate road, no one else out there but you and your twitching right hand, open road, open throttle, open eyes, there's NHP with his roasted nuts and he's painted you...at least you've been known to stop...and that's all we could ever ask for now, isn't it?...and you've even been given your share of warnings...and that's all you could ever want now, isn't it? I know first hand (from my rookie days) that when there is no negative impact on traffic, the ticket could get dismissed. Just be cool with the officer and hope he's/she's cool with you. Ride on!
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...just relax...my dog wants to use only one of your legs...
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted March 03, 2002 05:29 PM
223, I have had my share of warnings only after kissing serious ass. You have never met a bigger ass kisser and suck up than me when it comes to getting a ticket. Believe me I resent the hell out of it, but it is the price you have to pay to not be a victim of the armed meter mollies with their huge egos. So I pay it. On the other hand I live in Sparks, NV and the cops here are awesome, Reno cops are pretty cool usually. Instead of making a big deal out of me doing 35-40ish in a 25 a Sparks cop just flicked on his lights for a second and that reminded me to slow down. Then on Halloween night they are out in force with pumkins on their lights giving out candy, making sure that that the kids on their watch were safe as in their mothers arms. That's a police force!!!
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
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posted March 04, 2002 06:04 AM
I have a theory (posted before) about the "excessive fines". If the fine for speeding was a nickel and no points, everyone would speed all over hell. If the penalty was execution right there on the road, nobody would risk speeding. Somewhere in between there is a level of deterrence that works. In my town we just ratchet up the penalties until the behavior is modified to acceptable levels. Everyone knows the rules, you choose if it's worthwhile to break them. We just put three vehicle violations on the instant tow away list. No insurance, loud stereo and illegal window tint are all towable offenses. Now our only problem is the cops are too nice and don't want to enforce them all. And so it goes....
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pat830
Expert Class
Posts: 135
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posted March 04, 2002 06:55 AM
Laws should not be changed or made harsher, just enforce the ones we already have.
Enforce the laws we have. Don't change them or make them harsher to benefit the local municipalities. Seems like when tax revenues decline, other revenue streams are enacted. Seizure of a vehicle is one of the latest scams pulled by the authorities.
I don't believe in evading the cops and putting other people at risk, but this seizure of property crap has to be stopped.
Police state or big brother, it should not be tolerated. I don't see how the people in Europe tolerate those speed cameras.
This is supposed to be a free country, we should act like it.
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EastBayDave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted March 04, 2002 07:27 AM
Edited By: EastBayDave on 4 Mar 2002 07:33
Well I've beaten around the bush long enough; & TedG has hit it right on the head. Radar tickets out in the boon docks for a minor violation sux, but the unofficial quotas must be filled. My father was a sheriff (bless his gone soul), so no BS about "there is no such thing." I understand, & there is a need for cops. Especially the K9 guys like 223 who chase the scumbags of society. Keep up the good work 223...
Now, my question is: We all ride bikes that on a good day & long straight (out in the middle of nowhere) will go ~190ish. What would the average traffic cop do? (Assuming once pulled over, you are civil/VERY nice to the officer.) Out here the CHP would simply take you to jail for anything over 100mph, you would lose your license, big fine, & possibly lose your life to AIDS cuz of the population of the local jails. The jail population has a general disdain of us "normal" people, who are otherwise law-abiding citizens. The sodomites/butt surfers would surely repeatedly rape you, & your going to catch the bugs. THIS is the reason I am tempted to try to elude (I am NOT afraid of paying huger fines if caught- I'm afraid of JAIL), but I typically pull over.
This threat of going to jail has kept ME from exploring the upper ranges 6th gear. I know, go to Bonneville or El Mirage. Unfortunately I can't afford that & have no truck or trailer, plus being seizure prone due to an old brain injury (controlled by drugs) I can't get licensed with many racing organizations.
What I really want is one of you LE types to tell me is what would be the average/approximate results if YOU pulled someone over for ultra-high speeds like 175-190mph? I just want my ignorance of the law here to be filled in. What would you charge them with? Or would you just issue a warning? Would it be:
Huge ticket/fine?
Take them straight to Jail?
Loss of license?
Reckless driving or driving to Endanger? (local terminology?)
Tow the bike away?
Eluding? (Thinking you may not know your being chased; this happened to a friend.)
Is it a automatic felony? Mistamineor? (sp?) What?
Or ALL of the above. If YOU officer stopped someone for these kinds of speeds in an otherwise safe area (no traffic, out in the desert or deserted long straight), what would YOU do to the otherwise law abiding citizen??? Just because you ride an "Ultra-Sports" bike is no reason to lose your life? But it seems that would be the penalty if caught at those speeds. Thus, for many of us, the elude temptation arrives to people who would otherwise not run. What is LE's opinion on this??
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02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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ezx11
Novice Class
Posts: 35
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posted March 04, 2002 07:41 AM
i know i am going to get flamed for this but here goes
yes we need police, yes we need laws
but most of the laws are nonsensical (and i am not talking about murder or the like)
we have a priviledge to drive (i like that orwellian nonsense) hell no, we have a right to drive, just like our ancestors had a right to a horse and buggy
and being we have that right, we get drivers licenses, which means that we have proven to a degree that we are responsible to drive
we are adults and given the responsiblity to drive, so why if i am doing 60 in a 30 mph zone which is deserted, not a car in site, non-residential area, on a sunday morning, why am i getting a ticket???
because its the law??? give me a break, then when they change the law and make the speed limit 50 or 60 now its ok???
most of these laws are made for revenue or as a knee-jerk reaction to some headlines
and if it wasnt for the mandatory insurance, which isnt regulated, its a money-making scheme which clocks every ticket you get
most riders wouldnt evade the police if it as just a ticket, but no.... we have to get points, plus the ticket, and that is not only unfair, its unjust
so now because some people dont want to be victims of this tryanny, they up the ante to confiscate the bikes...... now there is a good solution, now i aint never stoppin
most of us on zx12's are not just doing 80 mph (if you are, you should be riding a cruiser) we are doing 100+
imagine the fine if we get stopped? now imagine that if you get stopped for running they are going to take your bike
who is gonna stop now?
cops are there to protect and serve, not punish
this a much deeper subject than what we can honestly discuss thru forums
but i touched on a few things here, so flame away
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petty minds think of petty things
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mo
Expert Class
Posts: 128
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posted March 04, 2002 08:13 AM
Williamson Co. SUX COX!!!!!!!!! typical Williamson CO arrest; drunk guy talking to girl friend on pay phone Public intoxiction? NO, DWI his bicycle was within 5 feet, fuckin DWI. Cops need no more fuckin laws untill they enforce the stupid ass laws they already got.in Austin just south of good ole WC the task force smashed down a door and shot the wrong anarmed kid DEAD!I'm pretty sure if any one dies on my account during my work day I will be arrested but not cops they get paid vacations! shit, the fuckin stories I could tell, I figure if they catch any one of us running there wont be much let to arrest or jail.
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KW
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blkrnbw
Novice Class
Posts: 61
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posted March 04, 2002 08:26 AM
Hrm
I may get flamed here but I don't see the point to alot of these points. Yeah ok we got our license that proves we are responsible enough to drive BUT in doing so you also agreed to follow the laws. Whether or not one sees it safe to drive 70 in a 35 zone is a mute point you agreed to follow laws and if your not doing so its not the laws fault its your own. Yes it sux getting a ticket but its not like you didn't know you had a chance of it before you sped/ran/did whatever. Many may see it stupid to get a ticket in some circumstances but you put yourself there. Just because they were sittin on their arse with a radar and clocked you its not their fault, you volunteered for it. I speed along with the rest and have gotten pulled over a few times, twice at 100+, once from a SF cop while going over the bay bridge and once by CHP. Neither time was a doing anything stupid, no weaving etc, both times they let me go. I didn't kiss ass was just honest. "You know how fast yo were going?" "Just over 100." "Why?" "got a little stupid and opened it up a bit". They run license and let me go. If I got a ticket hey I knew I was speeding I'll pay the fine. Anyway its not the cops fault you get a ticket, we all know what we are doing and whether it is legal or not. If you don't know then don't drive.
Brian
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ezx11
Novice Class
Posts: 35
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posted March 04, 2002 09:15 AM
Edited By: ezx11 on 4 Mar 2002 09:52
quote:
They run license and let me go. If I got a ticket hey I knew I was speeding I'll pay the fine. Anyway its not the cops fault you get a ticket, we all know what we are doing and whether it is legal or not. If you don't know then don't drive.
Brian
Brian, i am not into fighting thru eposts, but i do express my opinions like everyone else
if they hadnt let you go, and you paid the fine, they confiscated your bike and your insurance went up, would you stop speeding?
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petty minds think of petty things
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ezx11
Novice Class
Posts: 35
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posted March 04, 2002 09:17 AM
one more item
i have been driving over 25 years, never an accident, so by that logic, my driving record (by payouts) is excellent
but i have a ton of tickets for speeding
which should an insurance company go by, my speeding tickets or the fact that in 25 years, they have never had to pay one dime from me?
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Great Minds think of Great Things
petty minds think of petty things
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blkrnbw
Novice Class
Posts: 61
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posted March 04, 2002 09:58 AM
If they had confiscated bike and I got the ticket etc etc, no I prolly would not stop speeding. But may think twice about it. I suppose eventually after losing 2 or 3 bikes I would stop. I am not disagreeing that the system can suck with tickets etc but most of us here speed when we know it is safe (I hope) but the laws encompass all of us from the idiot who traded in his 250 after 4 mos of riding to buy a 12R, they cannot single them out or its discrimination. I guess it comes down to we do what we think we should. Just as a cop does.
Brian
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ROCKET J
Zone Head
Goes to water over a dummy!!!
Posts: 602
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posted March 04, 2002 10:03 AM
It's ok I'm trained to specially endanger people...
If you are going 45 in a 35, what gives a cop the right to do 90-100 mph to catch you? I ask you, which is more dangerous?
Rocket
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If I get any smarter, my head will explode!
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