Badkarma
Parking Attendant
Posts: 2
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posted August 28, 2005 08:54 PM
Breaking it in???? Help
Last week I bought a new 12R and I have a huge question. A sticker on the bike says don't run it past 4000 rpm for the first 500 miles....is this true? The dealer told me you could break them in "hard" and they are fine?
What would you guys do?
P.S. I have already been in the 8000 range but I avoided going any higher until I get a good answer?
  
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238mph
Pro
Posts: 1145
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posted August 28, 2005 09:08 PM
I've bought new bikes every year almost my whole life... 25 years of riding...
I warm them up good BEFORE riding, but even new, I run them hard...
Over the years I have attended many Kawi tech classes at tracks etc... and those guys
always said that the purpose of the sticker is to BREAK IN THE RIDER, not the bike.
You need to get used to the bike and how it responds, and work up to its full potential.
Same thing if you put it away all winter... you don't get on it hard, having not ridden for
months...
You guys that have new bikes should worry about the recalls and the stator wiring problem.
Be sure to watch the oil in the connector in the tail... hell, just fix it right off and don't
wait for the problem... it can catch fire OR leak oil on your rear tire...
Bet the dealer didn't tell you that huh????  No worries, it's an easy fix.
____________
Pilot Powers took me to the grave, and brought me back...
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted August 28, 2005 09:38 PM
Don't worry about it, a 4000 rpm limit is ridiculous.
There is at least the potential with some engines for overheating or localized (spot) overheating when the engine is new. So vary the rpm, don't hold it at high rpm on any extended basis. But sweeping up with strong acceleration up to 8000 or whatever I absolutely do not believe is a problem, as far as I'm concerned it's superstition that it is, or a carryover from the old days, and I have never seen a substantive argument to the contrary (personally I'm not rating "it must be a disaster to do different than written in the owner's manual, they wouldn't have written it if it weren't so" to be a substantive argument.)
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted August 29, 2005 06:41 AM
http://www.dezmo.com/breakin.html
read the manual. The manual for my bike looked like it was really restrictive, but actually reading the words made a difference.
HUGE difference between "never exceed" and "Avoid PROLONGED OPERATION above"
Nothing will beat a good CONTROLLED break in environment. Control the heat, and the loading, and life is good. Exceed the ability of the oil system to remove contaminants, or the cooling system to remove heat, and you're on the way to damaging parts.
there are plenty of opinions out there on this subject. Remember: if it sounds too good to be true "Use MY method and your engine will blah blah blah" it likely is.
There's even a website out there that claims use of HIS method will yield zero blowby, zero oil past the oil control rings, and photographically, zero buildup of any deposits in combustion chamber.... (belongs in the too good to be true column; zero blowby is impossible in a reciprocating piston sliding seal combustion engine. No oil past oil control ring would result in upper ring seizures....)
I've broken in engines as well, and a HUGE +1 to the varying load, with strong usage. No load running is as bad as running it like a bat out of hell brand new. (ever wonder why grandma's car ran like crap at 30k miles? )
my favorite break in for engine? nice curvy roads with elevation changes.
  
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted August 29, 2005 06:46 AM
The tighter the engine the lower the RPMS need to be used. Actually "I" Mostly stay in the RPM Limit and ride the bike very easy for the first 100 Miles. Then I do a serious blast through the gears seeing about 7 ot 8,000 rpms for a very brief time ans then allow the high spots cool and wear in for another 100 miles but now I am accel and decel up and down for the 2nd 100 miles. At 200 miles I really blast it through the gears again seeing 8 to 9,000 rpms and then more of the above to 300 miles but at 300 I go to closer to 11,000 rpms then more of the same until at 500 miles just before I change Oil and filter, I hit redline in aq few gears then change the oil
FOr the 2nd 500 I use the 6,000 rpm redline and every 100 miles I run it very hard and at 1,000 miles I still do not consider it broken and just vary speeds until I see 2,000 miles where I change Oil and filter again and THEN put in Synthetic Oil
To me as Trenance stated, it is to remove the High spots and break in the rings. The Hard blast is the break in part and the slow riding is the repair work from the blasts. If you rode it hard all of the time, the high spots would grow and wear and even possible seize. Hot spots burn away the oil and wear parts more than necessary
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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eastbaydave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted August 29, 2005 07:04 AM
exactly....run it easily, but don't baby it. The big thing is not to hold it at high-rpm for prolonged periods (like freeway cruising at high speed.) As Slug says, "HUGE difference between "never exceed" and "Avoid PROLONGED OPERATION above."
Also, you don't want to be stuck in traffic jams either. You want to keep the wind flowing thru that radiator at all times, especially during breaking. I typically break in my bikes on the backroads; constantly varying the rpms, going thru the gears, etc. You don't want to cruise at a steady speed/rpm for too long of a time until it's broke in...
FWIW, IMHO
____________
Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted August 29, 2005 07:19 AM
 Edited By: trenace on 29 Aug 2005 08:24
I do think maintaining fairly high gas pressure a good percentage of the time is important. At low gas pressures (low throttle), the rings aren't being pressed against the cylinder walls. This is why Grandma's car never ran well 
So alternating between full throttle and closed throttle is much much much better than cruising at constant speed. As EBD said above, traffic is the wrong place for break-in, should absolutely be avoided.
On the freeway cruising, not sure what EBD means by avoiding high speed on the freeway -- to me, going back and forth between 60 or 70 to 100 indicated on the freeway (alternating between full and closed throttle) mostly in 6th but sometimes 5th or 4th is good for break-in. I don't see a problem with having to sometimes hold at 70 in top gear because of conditions, but I don't think it's ideal for break-in to have a lot of that as the 12 is pretty much loafing in terms of gas pressures in that condition.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted August 29, 2005 09:12 AM
Looks like we are fairly close in agreement (Some a little faster and other a little slower) but heat from slow traffic is horrible on a new engine I totally agree with that and even the statement that high Gas pressure is where the break in occurs but just like working out is good for your body, it is that day of "REST" between the Work outs where your body grows the Muscle. Well after a serious run and going slowly while your engine is cooling and psrts are shrinking and polished is when your engine benefits most!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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moog
Parking Attendant
Posts: 2
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posted August 29, 2005 10:51 PM
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
This is the way I have always done my new bikes, gives you more BHP and a cleaner running engine. I'd never go by manufacturers procedure, don't get a good clean poston seal their way
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Evil Edna rocks
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braiot
Novice Class
Posts: 77
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posted August 30, 2005 12:09 AM
It's funny how the specified rpm limit during breakin puts you right around highway speed limits. Of course they can't tell you to redline that sumbitch, cause that would put you over any speed limit in 1st gear.
More and more, the hard break-in procedure gains more credibility in my eyes.
New airplane engines are run hard, diesel guys will tell you to hook up a trailer to the truck to break it in, etc.
Why would a 12 be any different? Why would any engine be any different?
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted August 30, 2005 03:16 AM
speaking of the site that promises the world with faulty 'proof'
"cleaner running" hehehehe
break it in with a load, but don't overload it. how hard of a concept is that to understand?
yes, racers break their engines in REALLY hard, a nice loose engine can make more power. but it doesn't last long. I like mine to last 100k before needing a complete rebuild...
if i was racing it, that'd be a different story, because i would definately be rebuilding the engine every couple months or so, if not more often, depending on how strung out it was. Wouldi care that it developed low oil pressure at 30k miles? no, because it wouldn't ever get there.
mototune's claims and photographs are preposterous to anyone that has a clue how internal combustion engines work. And this has been debated over and over on this site and many others, with the same results: It's impossible to have zero blowby, zero oil past OCR, etc etc.
his methods are probably pretty close to ideal, but not everyone has a dyno at their disposal.
His claims that crosshatch is gone at 25 miles are utter & complete BS, unless he is using the softest cylinder linings known to man. at 60k there was STILL an easily visible crosshatch in the old yzf. i'd say the ZX12r has the same quality cylinders as any other make out htere, so there is no reason to expect that all ring seating is done by 25 miles like that tool claims.
don't buy this guy's BS. His idea of a controlled break in with load is one thing, but the other BS that islittered across his site is a waste of bandwidth.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted August 30, 2005 09:05 AM
I can still see the Cross Hatch at 7,000 miles. The #1 problem with Break In is the Oil Nowadays is just too good to allow it to happen!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted August 30, 2005 09:24 AM
It's the Nickasil plating that's as hard as a preachers pecker that makes the cross hatching last for so long. Dayum Slug, If I got 30K out of a sportbike motor I would think I won the lottery, and 100K would make me feel like Bill Gates just give me his empire. I've usually turned the little screw in on the waste gate way too far before that kind of mileage is reached  Which brings me back to my promise to myself. I will not turbo the 12! Yea right!
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted August 30, 2005 12:00 PM
Well, while I certainly don't know the mileage where one would say the effect has largely run out, I think the crosshatching must be much SHARPER at first than later.
There's no doubt that in the first few miles it's just honing away, so to speak, on the rings to give a good fit. Later oil changes don't show nearly the amount of material put into oil.
So while a cross hatching pattern is visible many thousands of miles later, I don't think its properties are the same as when new. It also doesn't feel the same to the hand.
(NO, that is not an overall defense of "He who must not be named." )
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted August 30, 2005 05:49 PM
Edited By: slug on 30 Aug 2005 18:51
hehehe
last break-in of rings i did was at 37k, it honed just fine then as well. The track engine i cannot make any comment on the mileage on the jugs. But the machine shop was unable to even scratch the surface, so they had to break in on the pretty faint crosshatch that was there. If i had to guess based on the visibility of my streetbike engine's hatching at 60k, that set had many more (or much harder) miles on it. (and that would be interesting, greenglenn can attest that i am not easy by any means on my poor bike)
perhaps it wasn't as fast (it took 150-200 miles before it stopped burning a slight amount of oil) but i can't recall how long it took to be clean burn when it was brand new. Frankly it's been 6 years and 61k and several crashes along the way, which may have affected my memory. Or the old age....
but his claims of 25 miles are preposterous.
PS: has anyone ever noticed that every time break in are discussed some newb joins and posts his website URL?
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scooter trash
Expert Class
Posts: 407
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posted August 30, 2005 06:27 PM
So, to make sure I understand this correctly you are saying that you have honed a Nik-O-Sil cylinder bank, yes?
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gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted August 30, 2005 09:44 PM
quote:
(NO, that is not an overall defense of "He who must not be named." )
MotoMan!!! MotoMan!!! MotoMan!!!!
There I said it..... Uh oh now I'm in trouble 
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted August 30, 2005 09:47 PM
All too likely the Gates of Hell shall now open and we shall all be incincerated!!!!
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gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted August 30, 2005 09:51 PM
As Gilligan said to the Skipper many times. "There's nuttin ahead but Smoooth Sailing!"
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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scooter trash
Expert Class
Posts: 407
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posted August 30, 2005 10:01 PM
;-)
Hell guys, if you think Motoman is a stud just say so.
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gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted August 30, 2005 10:12 PM
quote:
;-)
Hell guys, if you think Motoman is a stud just say so.
Shit Bob, I just think it's all funny as Hell really.
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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moog
Parking Attendant
Posts: 2
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posted August 30, 2005 11:35 PM
Motoman is a God.
I have raced bikes since 9 years old and have heard the usual break in arguements hundreds of times.
Faster you run it in, the faster it will go. Machining tolerances are down to microns now, not like in the 50's when engines had to be run in due to varying machining accuracy.
Just my opinion, each to there own.
I actually straightline Hayabusa's when Kawasaki get a decent clutch in 12r I may have a look at tweaking one.
____________
Evil Edna rocks
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted August 31, 2005 03:04 AM
quote:
So, to make sure I understand this correctly you are saying that you have honed a Nik-O-Sil cylinder bank, yes?
no, the shop attempted to. And nothing he had was hard enough to even come close to making marks.
since it was for the track and didn't matter too much (not like i am racing or anything; just having fun) i figured if the rings DIDN'T seal that i could just pull them off and send them to the guy out west that re-lines and have HIM do the bore/hone/line.
but they sealed up fine, so no worries.
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eastbaydave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted August 31, 2005 06:39 AM
quote:
I do think maintaining fairly high gas pressure a good percentage of the time is important. At low gas pressures (low throttle), the rings aren't being pressed against the cylinder walls. This is why Grandma's car never ran well
So alternating between full throttle and closed throttle is much much much better than cruising at constant speed. As EBD said above, traffic is the wrong place for break-in, should absolutely be avoided.
On the freeway cruising, not sure what EBD means by avoiding high speed on the freeway -- to me, going back and forth between 60 or 70 to 100 indicated on the freeway (alternating between full and closed throttle) mostly in 6th but sometimes 5th or 4th is good for break-in. I don't see a problem with having to sometimes hold at 70 in top gear because of conditions, but I don't think it's ideal for break-in to have a lot of that as the 12 is pretty much loafing in terms of gas pressures in that condition.
I mean (example) you don't want to hold 9K rpms steady in any gear for a half-hour, etc. (I know peeps who ride freeway like that.) I agree, you want fairly high gas pressure a good percentage of the time. I do that by riding the backroads- rowing the gearbox.
I like doing low rpm heavy throttle hand up hills; then giving it a few miles cool down, then doing it again, etc. You know, putting a heavy load on briefly, then coast along awhile easily, then heavy load again, then cool-down, then again. Easy to do when riding mountain type twisties/backroads- loading it up on the uphill grades.
I also like to do this near the coast in this area (San Francisco Bay), as in the mornings the fog is quite heavy & cold at times- insuring no overheating. Do the above, in cool temps, I would think be good for long life. At least, that's the way I been doing it for 4 decades...
____________
Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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