trenace
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Posts: 3056
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posted July 01, 2005 09:24 PM
Boring throttle bodies?
Any suggestions on who does a good job boring ZX-12R throttle bodies?
A complicating factor is that preferably these will be 2004 - 2005 TB's.
(However, if for some reason that is impossible, anyone know if you can run older TB's on the B3/B4 bikes? Obviously the subthrottle feature would be lost, but maybe this could be a last resort?)
Thanks!
  
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VincentHill
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posted July 02, 2005 04:17 AM
I wonder if the later throttle Bodies maks as much HP and the earlier? Don't the last set have 2 throttle plates?
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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ricksgsxr
Zone Head
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posted July 02, 2005 09:31 AM
I tried two different reputable shops (un-named) and even with new cnc blades I could not get the idle below 2500 rpm with two different sets. The second shop replaced my tb's with stock ones. This was on a GSXR1000 with a 3 mm overbore but I beleive to get the most bang you want a bigger than stock motor. Gixx1300r@aol.com I beleive is his e-mail. (Nick Smith) may still do them I know he did for the busa and 1k at one time.
Superbike Mike but I think out of maybe a 100 posts on him on variuos boards only 1 or 2 came back as positive.
Lee Sheirts prolly does but $$
Rick
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trenace
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posted July 02, 2005 10:33 AM
Thanks!
If done right (and there are wrong ways to do it) idle should not be affected.
I'll be going to a 1290, which is a 3.8% increase in cylinder bore, so 48 mm throttle bodies (4.3%) increase) really pretty much is just matching up. Kawasaki themselves would likely do the same. Actually some other bikes these days have bigger TB bores relative to displacement than that.
I'll try Lee Shierts... thanks! Any other suggestions?
(BTW, Rick, if I find someone if you don't mind I'll run the name past you to make sure it isn't a shop that messed up your job, without your having to post the name. Thanks!)
Mr Hill, my thought is that the secondary butterflies probably do cost a touch of hp, but with the two blades being right in line with each other, one is "in the draft" of the other so to speak so I'm guessing it isn't too much of a loss. It may be though that I should, or will have to, bore older style TB's and use them only for Maxton, and keep the 05-style ones stock bore. But doing so would result in my not enjoying any resulting advantage on the street -- I do prefer the double-throttle-bodies on the street (throttle response is better compared to the '03, is quite nice really.)
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ricksgsxr
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posted July 02, 2005 01:59 PM
 Edited By: ricksgsxr on 2 Jul 2005 15:00
Both were straight up. The first shop had either outsourced or had the the second shop that the guy had worked for him and than went on his own. They are within a few blocks of each other.The first shop I called after the first set would not idle and he told me the deal with the other guy and he would either replace them or if I still wanted them done to call the second shop and he would take them down to him. Which he did. The second shop had always done busas's. He would try to do a set but had never done a 1k TB. It did not work . Neither screwed me. The 1k is different than the busas where I guess they are tapered bored down. the 1k's throttle bodies you have to split them. Only thing I lost out on was the intial dyno run but it was like $20 and I had other stuff being done. He replaced with another set and and did the TB mod (removing the secondary set of blades and reversed them from top to bottom which is a popular 1 k mod) I beleive either would tell you straight up if they can do or not-both lost their shirts on the deal. They treated me right and I don't want to give the impression either was a bad vender.
Rick
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trenace
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posted July 02, 2005 03:20 PM
Agreed, that was straight-up of them. Thanks.
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johnnycheese
Pro
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posted July 03, 2005 08:41 PM
for a 1290 I wouldn't even think about it.
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
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posted July 04, 2005 01:58 PM
Trenace, Me think its a bad idea.....
Ask entropy, about it he has bigger TB and a hhuge engine, he can give some light to you on this matter.
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trenace
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posted July 04, 2005 09:15 PM
Edited By: trenace on 4 Jul 2005 22:52
Entropy, what say you?
Thanks!
I had thought they were expected to be worth 3 hp or so in such a situation but I'm always open to correction and new and better info.
Incidentally, the redline is also expected to be extended to about 12,250 (or whatever overclocking is going to give) and with hotter cams (probably Muzzy) and probably about 1 mm larger valves but I don't actually expect more power at 12,250 than at 11,650 though of course a couple more would be nice, nor more than perhaps an extra 5 or 6 hp from the Muzzy cams. So I doubt those facts are of particular relevance to the question, just getting everything out there. And ported heads, matched to the TB's and boots (whether these be stock or bored.)
Wanting at least moderately over 200 hp SAE at the rear wheel, which I appreciate I shouldn't expect significantly more than and things will need to be pretty much just right to get that. So in this context the 48 mm, in proportion with cylinder bore increase, doesn't sound appropriate or significantly beneficial?
It's true that in principle -- which counts for little compared to what facts you have experienced -- I can't see how 46 mm throttle bodies can be a significant restriction within the overall intake tract. So if nothing good happens on going to 48 mm in an application like mine I can see the theoretical reason for that, but I'd thought (perhaps wrongly) that practical results had been good though modest in similar situations?
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Ra12r
Zone Head
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posted July 06, 2005 05:09 AM
Entropy's is a great person to ask about HP and HP overandunder 200hp. I would suggest to NOT be oriented toward playing the dyno HP game. Build with your emphasis on performance improvement.
Remember a 1290 is an extra "70cc" that is all!!! You should be considering a crank job instead of cams. We have HOT cams from KMI.
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted July 06, 2005 05:31 PM
What "crank job" do you suggest besides basic Supercrank work by Falicon?
Though I would like to get back to my question if any have more info. Thanks!
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ZXLNT
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posted July 06, 2005 09:22 PM
I think Rob Muzzy said not to bother with large intake valves as well..
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trenace
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posted July 06, 2005 11:41 PM
Well, on his recent post to me he told me I needed "at least 56 mm" (fifty-six mm) throttle bodies to get the most out of 13,000 rpm, which is not that greatly different a goal than my present goal of 12,250 rpm, so this is conflicting info.
What can I say, going up 2 mm in TB bore and 1 mm in valve size is simply in proportion to cylinder bore increase. It's possible it's not necessary but it seemsimpossible that it's unreasonable to do. I was hoping for some specific info, someone who had 1) gone to 1270 or 1290 and 2) after that was tested bored the TB's, or 3) hopefully someone who knew someone who did a good job at this. If no one has that info, okay, I do appreciate your taking the time to read anyway!
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zxlnt
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posted July 07, 2005 03:38 AM
Right but the Prostock engine was also over 1400cc's...
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Ra12r
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posted July 07, 2005 03:44 AM
I suggest your basic stroker crank as LARGE as you can go.
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johnnycheese
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posted July 07, 2005 05:28 AM
quote:
for a 1290 I wouldn't even think about it.
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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trenace
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posted July 07, 2005 05:38 PM
Edited By: trenace on 7 Jul 2005 19:19
OK, well, when asking who does a good job boring throttle bodies and saying I'm doing a 1290, not a thirteen or fourteen-whatever, Ra you're giving me answers telling me to do a "stroker crank as LARGE as you can go" while ignoring the TB's and the questions I asked there. Why not tell me what tires to use while at it, particularly if I said specifically I didn't want to use those tires that you're recommending? Same thing here.
Not what I asked, not what I want to do, won't qualify for the class I want at Maxton, and would result in a rod/stroke ratio in the ridiculous range that no one can expect to last long unless they believe some ads they shouldn't believe. (The 12 has way lower deck height and rod length than the Busa's, as I'm sure Johnny Cheese knows.) That's one "supremacy" that I'm not exactly going to be "bowing to." If some windage work had been suggested, if some oil shedding coating, whatever, that would have been interesting though not related to my question, which is why I wanted to see if you had something unexpected to say about the crank; but most certainly stroking is in direct contradiction to the situation I asked about, throttle bodies with the motor being built for 1290.
I thought it was a simple question. Who does a good job at this, and can you run earlier model TB's on later bikes? Neither was answered.
I do appreciate JohnnyCheese's answer that he does not consider it necessary for a 1290, and Rick's suggestion of Lee Shierts. That did pay attention to what I was asking. Thanks all for the efforts both those that did address the questions, and those that advised for situations I specifically said I wasn't going to do (stroking.)
quote:
Right but the Prostock engine was also over 1400cc's...
True, but Rob I thought knew I was talking about a 1270 or 1290 at 13,000 rpm when saying that (advising 56 mm.) It did sound unusually large to me. However, it's possible he was not thinking of that: a 1427 with 56 mm would correspond to a 1290 with only 46 mm, it's true. So without clarification as to which he meant, whether he was recalling the displacement, that probably shouldn't be used as an example.
On the other hand, some of the newer bikes do, from the factory, have bigger TB's relative to their bore and rpm limit than a 1290 Twelve would with 48 mm. And as mentioned, a 1290 Twelve with 48 mm is proportionally no larger than an 1199 Twelve with 46 mm TB's, and who seriously proposes that the stock TB's are too large or should even be sleeved down? Anyone?
Also the newer bikes in at least some cases have bigger TB's relative to bore and redline than does the stock 12, and I'm unwilling to assume the driving force is necessarily stupidity or ignorance. Besides this some have specifically claimed benefit.
Anyhow, most likely all the answers I'll be getting on this have already been gotten above, so thank you!
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mlb
Novice Class
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posted July 08, 2005 04:50 PM
Just kidding but have you thought about stroking the motor, I hear that's the thing tho do 
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trenace
Needs a job
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posted July 08, 2005 05:15 PM
 
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entropy
Moderator
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posted July 08, 2005 08:26 PM
trenace,
i am 110% following yr most excellent project; but am traveling and not getting to good broadband access often enough. I get back to to Houston on Sunpm, how about i call you nearly next week. pm me yr cell if you wanna yak.
Basically:
1. The 46 vs 48 TB Q is one which has not been settled in my mind, even tho I have a set of both (incl a set of stacks for each).
2. Going up 1mm on valves is considered a non-no by 99% of folks i consulted.
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ZXLNT
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posted July 08, 2005 11:15 PM
And Number 2 was what I was talking about. Oversized valves....
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Ra12r
Zone Head
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posted July 09, 2005 07:02 AM
Trenance, if you know what you WANT to do, then just do it. You seem set on boring your throttle bodies, so "JUST DO IT". Most every thread I read addressed your question whether indirect or directly. I missed the part about Maxton, so that is my bad.
Contact Gixx1300R he can do your throttle bodies. You happy now?!
PS. Go change your Tampon!!!
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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psycho1122
Pro
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posted July 10, 2005 08:47 AM
quote:
Also the newer bikes in at least some cases have bigger TB's relative to bore and redline than does the stock 12,
Keep in mind that most of the bikes do not have the Cam Shaft Specs. (duration etc.) that the 12 runs!
For that extra "couple" hp at high rpm, a nice "clean-up" (NOT PORTING) of the ports in the head will do nicely. Carefull Cam degreeing also contributes.
BTW, don't sweat Ra....
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted July 12, 2005 01:27 PM
Thanks all for the additional help!
Entropy, what you're saying is pretty compelling... if when having both the difference is "hardly settled" then it seems questionable whether it's worth an expense which may be pretty high...
Not that I'd go with Superbike Mike, but he charges $900!!
I feel bad, I just e-mailed Lee Shierts asking him about it, but should have checked back here first... now I'm feeling I probably wasted his time with the question.
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RA12r
Zone Head
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posted July 12, 2005 03:46 PM
If you are learning, then asking questions is NOT a waste of time. However, sometimes we get overly "anal" when thinking about these things. With a very LITTLE effort, our motors are operating within the 90% range or maximum efficiency. It becomes ver difficult to improve something that is 90% already.
As many have said, bigger is not always better, especially when what we have is already "bigger" than neccessary. This is the issue with the cams for our bikes. When you really do the research, there isn't hardly anywhere to go to improve what we have. That is with alot of things on our bikes. I could list things but it would get boring. So instead we spend money on stuff that looks better in theory of paper than what actually is neccessary or actually makes a change.
Good luck on your project,,,,,!!!
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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