trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted July 12, 2005 04:44 PM
Thank you, that is much appreciated!
I haven't really shared here what my approach and way of thinking is here... there is not anything especially good or interesting about it, but having differing goals results in different ways of doing things or getting there.
Maxon is a type of racing that, at least till this point, is kind of like the way it used to be, where an ordinary guy has a chance with a budget that can be personally afforded and maybe a couple of good ideas and a fair amount of sweat and hard work. That's what's being competed against basically.
Reality is, or at least I think it is, a MotoGP bike could go claim the 1000 cc Gas category as well as 1350 cc gas without anything being done at all except maybe a touch less compression... this even though the bike isn't optimized for top speed but rather getting around a MotoGP track the fastest. If optimized for top speed (more priority to top end hp, probably different aeros) the speeds they would get would be untouchable compared to any modified stock bike.
Ditto for many drag race bikes.
So I know I will build nothing that really is any remarkable machine by the big bucks / extremely-experienced-engineers-and-builders race team standards. And so that's not my goal.
Rather, I want to get the 200 mph club run with a bike that is my streetbike, in as close to street tune as possible, though most likely I am going to have to run hotter cams for Maxton and swap back afterwards. There may be only 5 extra hp or so in that, but it's unlikely I can afford to be short that 5 hp.
Anyhow, all that is why I don't want to stroke the motor. Agreed, it would be a very cost-efficient way of getting more power and so in another situation, for differing goals, that would be a different matter entirely.
On the waste of time, I meant a waste of Mr Shierts' time asking about something that it now looks like, probably would not be a benefit worth the cost. But you are also certainly right that if I learn from his reply, while his time may have been wasted (from the commercial sense, and he is in business to make money) that will be important for me. Since he runs at Maxton himself he no doubt will something very knowledgeable to say on it, if he has looked at this for 12R's, though it seems he is more associated with Busas for that.
  
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted July 12, 2005 05:06 PM
you want the 200mph that is easy
a 1290 kit with a good head and the motor set up correctly and gearing /Chassis set you you will have it unless you are over 190# or over 5'9" then you need a bit more, not about weight, it is about size and air.
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted July 12, 2005 05:27 PM
Well, to get the 200 mph club actually presently about 204 is needed in the 1350 Gas category, and that may increase.
I'm just under 6 feet and presently 190... hope to drop to 170 or so though.
But I am thinking the 204 should be very doable with what you have said, basically. Plus I am hoping that very substantial weight reduction on the bike will give me a little "edge" that others have not so much been going for at Maxton, or usually not really at all. I won't make more power than others most likely, actually will be at little deficit compared to what's possible in 1350 due to not stroking, but hopefully the weight reduction will make up at least partly for that.
Over a longer distance the weight would be almost irrelevant... within the standing mile though I'd think it has to be worth a couple of mph to be dropping around 70-80 lb, particularly with a lot of it being rotating weight. After all, there's only about 15 seconds or so acceleration time once passing the 1/4 mile mark, so having an extra few mph at the quarter mile mark can't hurt. Though most certainly you are speaking from experience in the standing mile and I am not.
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted July 14, 2005 05:14 AM
A 1290 and headwork should get you there. Remember that Doug got 199mph with just a Muzzy pipe as an official pass at Maxton. So unless there is something else we dont know about, then you are more than in the ball park.
There is an thread about the throttle bodies flow rates that I printed some years back. If you have a fax #then I will fax it to you.
The issue with the throttle bodies and cams lies in the flow efficiency of our head. Understand that at some particular lift amount the flow of the head plateaus. This value is something that I have looked for, but been unable to find? Flow rate vs Valve lift If you have a cam with valve lift that allows the head to flow at or above 90% from the factory, then another grind adds VERY LITTLE. Also understand that 5-7HP is also in the range of "statistical normal variants" for dyno's. What you really have to measure by is MPH change in the real world. Having said that, I will let you start a thread about the improvements in MPH over stock cams........  Please note, that our bikes just have EXTREMELY HOT cams OEM. The busa or Gixxers do not have hot cams or great heads from the factory. That is why these mods work so well with those bikes.
On the subject of porting, there is old school thought and new school. They have been discussed here just look around.
Everyone has an opinion, but simply ask for the 1/4MPH and that will tell the full story. Good luck in trying to get some information without paying for it on this web site though. Many of the posters feel their shops will go into bankruptcy if they share about info about cams, heads, cranks or anything that actually affects the motors performance. However, call a Suzuki guy, like LEE and he will share with you..........Go figure?!
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted July 14, 2005 07:30 PM
 Edited By: trenace on 15 Jul 2005 00:51
Ah well, true enough!
One thing is -- though this is far less than accurate science as I don't have enough data points nor are they necessarily perfect direct comparisons -- it seems to me that in practice it apparently takes 7 or so additional hp for every extra mph, in the regime near 200 mph, in the standing mile.
Now, in true top speed, enough room to truly reach it, that is not so, the figure should be about 3 hp per extra mph. But here it's not just achieving the top speed but having to pick up 40 mph or more in the last only 15 seconds or so of the run. In other words, gaining another mph past 200 doesn't just require overcoming the slightly higher aero drag of that speed but requires the acceleration be increased by a couple percent. That at least is how I explain to myself the apparent fact of about this much extra power being required per added mph here.
So -- and I won't bank that I could get same speed from stock bike but for prep and pipe as Doug Meyer did -- for 5 mph past 199 mph within the standing mile, I may need 35 extra hp (excluding effect of bike being lighter, excluding effect of me not being Doug Meyer.)
The one thing that really helps is that apparently I will have access to a private location for testing beforehand. So that way I can see how the motor without cams will do, rather than doing what might potentially be overkill if it turns out stock cams can do the needed job.
I do expect it will be close.
And agreed, the stock cams are definitely hot already!
Thank you for the fax offer! I sort of do, but mostly don't... has to do with the fact that the computer printer doubles as the fax, and is nowhere near a phone line that works unfortunately. If it's OK, I'd like to ask you at some future date for that, when set up for the fax to work. Thank you!
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted July 18, 2005 06:25 PM
You may be able to find it yourself here with a search?! The reply from y2k12r was in 2001. Just let me know if you need a fax.
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted July 18, 2005 11:28 PM
Thank you! I had no luck with the search, whether trying on the word throttle, the word flow, or on Y2K12R (which oddly did not work at all.)
Did find some threads on flow rates of the heads though, but I don't know what I could do with it (except, in principle, if knowing the conditions a given flow was achieved with the head, then if it's determinable that the pressure drop across a given diameter throttle body is already negligible at that flow rate, then one can know there is no possible benefit to increased TB size.
Did see a thread in there were Bear reported his finding of being worth 5-8 hp in his case... which again has me wondering if it could be worthwhile 
So, best plan probably is to see what mph is being gotten with everything done except cams and TB's, then if that is not adequate try cams, and then if that still is not quite making it, TB's as last resort.
I do appreciate the fax offer: I'll give you a PM when it's set up. Thanks!
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted July 19, 2005 06:38 PM
Y2KZX12R
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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gunner
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted July 19, 2005 07:57 PM
quote:
Y2KZX12R
I've spoke at lenth with this guy Y2KZX12R, He's one very shap person. He's involved in a couple of other projects right now. So the 12 is low on the list, but man is he loaded with info.
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There's no such thing as a motor with no more power to give only people with no more intelligence to get it
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BA
Pro
Posts: 1592
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posted August 01, 2005 02:26 PM
Yes he is. ....and not just with the 12R, but with high dollar racing motors as well.
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