Y2KZX12R
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posted February 20, 2002 04:36 AM
Madman, that may be the case with the Force pipe on the Busa, but thats a different engine and pipe than the 12r.
Did you dyno that Busa combo before and after the Force pipe?
321cya, look at the primary tubes, the serpent has flattened tubes close to the head where the pipe makes its first bend.
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ROCKET J
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posted February 20, 2002 11:45 AM
 Edited By: ROCKET J on 20 Feb 2002 15:35
It's here
I have the graph from Micron.
Try this:
http://hartman-motorsports.com/
Scroll down to bottom of page.
Rocket
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Engage
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posted February 20, 2002 04:10 PM
Thanks for posting Rocket. Next question what price does the Serpent run for? I haven't seen any info.
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bbwatercool
Novice Class
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posted February 20, 2002 05:56 PM
Edited By: bbwatercool on 20 Feb 2002 18:01
serpent prices
prices for the serpent are as follows:
serpent with s/s with polished canister 774.50
serpent with s/s with carbon fiber canister 869.75
serpent with s/s with chrome canister 869.75
serpent with s/s ti canister 899.75
we have them if you need them...thanks
to add the colors add $55 to those prices for all except the carbon fiber, add $85
dwayne
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ROCKET J
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posted February 20, 2002 06:43 PM
Map me baby!
BB, pretty good prices (I'm currently looking at a dealer price listing). Is there a PCIIr map? I wonder how that compares to the Micron "Fuel Kit".
Rocket
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bbwatercool
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posted February 20, 2002 06:54 PM
i don't know about a map but i'm quite sure that some one has done one for it already...micron should at least have one if no one else does...
dwayne
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ROCKET J
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posted February 20, 2002 07:19 PM
Page 19
Dwayne, Micron lists it as a FIMRPK50.001.
Rocket
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bbwatercool
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posted February 20, 2002 07:25 PM
map?
so is that the map for the pipe?
dwayne
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ROCKET J
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posted February 20, 2002 07:35 PM
Edited By: ROCKET J on 20 Feb 2002 19:36
Rather have PCIIIr?
I am assuming it's the box w/map. It is listed above the four Serpent pipes in the ZX-12R section. Described as: Micron matched fuel injection box for Kawasaki 2000+ ZX-12R.
Rocket
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Engage
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posted February 20, 2002 09:34 PM
Well, what is this "Micron mapped box" then? Do tell and does it cost???
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ROCKET J
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posted February 20, 2002 10:13 PM
Didn't they use Microns on Battlestar Glactica?
The pricing information that I have (effective 2-16-02) has a list price of $329.95. Probably can be had for less. What do you sell them for Dwayne?
Rocket
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kcadby
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posted February 21, 2002 01:03 PM
Apples to Cherrys but...my dyno guy spent a lot of time (tuning) TRYING to get ANY increase in power with a Serpent pipe over another brand...on a Honda...
He was NOT impressed with the Serpent AT ALL...
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ROCKET J
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posted February 21, 2002 01:28 PM
Calling all cars, calling all cars...
Has anybody ever run a Micron pipe on anything?
Rocket
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Engage
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posted February 21, 2002 02:27 PM
Well I think they got the flow theory down with the serpent but for me to bite I need an independent side by side test.
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321cya
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posted February 21, 2002 11:08 PM
Y2KZX12R,
I will check this weekend. Serpant or not. I felt a difference between the micron and my two brothers slip-on.
321cya
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 22, 2002 10:56 AM
Engage, the basic theory is that air like all matter that has mass wants to keep going in the origonal direction of travel unless an out side force acts uppon it.
Remember that from HS physics?
So it wants to go in a straight line if it can.
If its made to turn a corner then it will take the shortest route possable. The shortest route from the cylinder to the header is on the short turn of the exhaust port. The roof is the acting force that forces the air to turn the corner but the bulk of flow is on the lower half of the port.
This is why widening the port floor increases the overall port flow the most. Lowering the roof simply reduces the cross sectional area of the port to increase the port velocity for a given flow volume.
Only becaust of cost do we have round tube pipes. Look at the Merlin and Rolls Royce Griffon V-12 exhaust ports.
(____) in shape they have the widest floor possable. Of course on supercharged engines the exhaust port is more important than on a non supercharged engine.
So the factory makes round cylinder head ports because they use cheeper to make round tube head pipes.
Some automotive 4 and 5 valve engines do use "wide" ports.
But the bike makers are reluctant.
So what micron is doing is correct in theory. But application is key to thier success with this design. They are using a type of hydro-forming like chevrolet does on the C5 Corvette frame. A not so new technology (late 80's)used in a new application.
At least they are moving in the right direction.
Watch what the GP-1 bikes have for ports and exhaust.
I'll bet they arnt round at the head.
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Engage
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posted February 22, 2002 12:30 PM
Y2KZX12R I appreciate the exp lol but wasn't necessary( I even had college physics )I was agreeing with Micron!!! However you can answer for me "why don't all pipes have the crosss/balance tubes like the akro? What sort of difference do they make? Spill your guts. And I still need hard numbers by an indy source, as of now I am holding for an akro unless one of you experienced wrenches prove otherwise.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 22, 2002 01:34 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 22 Feb 2002 13:35
Cost.
They transfer the pressure wave when its out of phase with the valve timing on that cylinder to its companion cylinder.
As far as proving that the micron serpent is better well thats up to micron or who ever buys it.
I looked at the available pipes on the dyno and did the pipe math and the Yosh duplex and the Muzzy looked best for the street. I chose the Yosh over the Muzzy just because of the fit and finish. The Akrapovic was too weak below 6000 for my liking. Same with the Force.
I dont know what you mean by an "indy source"?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 22, 2002 02:07 PM
Oh Engage, Most of the time my comments arnt aimed at any one person. There are alot of board members that dont have a full understanding of what has to happen before a cylinder goes BOOM each time. And some have extensive knowledge. So I tried to explain for everyone what the roof and floor of a port actually does.
I've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours using flow benches with and without smoke and I still learn somthing almost every time I put a head on it. Sorry if I came across as talking down to you. It wasnt my intention.
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Engage
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posted February 22, 2002 02:26 PM
Y2KZX12R I'm not that thin skinned just giv'n a hard time back I know you put out good gouge coz i read almost all your posts. Matter of fact I like it when people explain themselves, it lets my ESP have the day off. Your comment about the low end capability of the Muzzy got the pendelum to swinging again. Had one for my 96 9R and wasn't unhappy. Price helps too.
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dougmeyer
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posted February 22, 2002 02:54 PM
Y2 & Engage,
Well, kinda sorta. Your short-side radius explanation is correct but, the reason a Merlin, Cosworth, Ilmore, Honda, and most "purpose built" late design racing engines have oval exhaust headers at the port is because they are four valve engines wherein the ports are not siamesed in the head to one port exit, but have separate "exits". The oval header covers these two separate ports and merges them into one round tube. As I told my friend at Micron, "Show me one (only one is necessary) F-1, Cart, or IRL header that shares this "innovative" design. Oh yeah, and an apples-apples dyno sheet wouldn't hurt either.
Doug
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ROCKET J
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posted February 22, 2002 11:52 PM
I will suffer for truth and science....
quote:
Oh yeah, and an apples-apples dyno sheet wouldn't hurt either.
That is exactly what we need! Somebody (Doug?) Should compare all the top pipes.
Once again I unselfishly volunteer my bike.
Of course round trip airfare, pleasant accommodations, and because I am up in that neck of the woods, dinner with Ann Wilson will be expected. 
Rocket
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Y2KZX12R
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posted February 23, 2002 05:24 AM
Doug, have you seen some of the VW heads out lately? They are making some funky stuff. Last winter I did some testing for a customer with a VW 4 cyl. The ports were way oversized and the flow mumbers were comparable to a set of BB Chevy dart heads! Un real for a 4 banger.
The GM quad 4 engines of the late 80's and 90's had these funky ports also.
A saab head I did a while back (for a road race turbo car) had intake ports that out flowed a set of $3800 SB ford heads! STOCK! These also had big flow on the exhaust side but in the case of the saab the mismatch of the hand made manifolds from the season before caused tumbling in the exhaust ports and the guy lost power. After smoke testing and some port widening of the floor he picked up 20+ hp in the lower revs.
So from what I've seen, tumbling in the exhaust port can cost some power. So I guess its a matter of how well they executed the theory.
How about getting one of these pipes and comparing it to one of yours?
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BA
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posted February 23, 2002 04:21 PM
reverting back to the "180hp" thing,..... I can offer this up.
A local friend of mine that used to be on some boards (gorilla12 or something) has the standard micron pipe on his 2000 12R. NOTHING else.
I had the PCIIIR and K&N's at the time, we had 5000 and 6000 miles on our bikes, and they dyno'd within .5 HP of each other! (I'm running the HMF) It was a "happy" dyno, with me getting 182.3 and my buddy getting 181.8.
Later, I dyno'd my bike again, but on a friends dyno, and "only" got 172hp. Stock, I was at 156hp.
Seems to me that, while we may not have been perfectly tweaked, that all of these 3 pipes (serpent included) were putting out damn near the same power level.
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ROCKET J
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posted February 23, 2002 11:49 PM
And the winner is....
That would bring us to looks, price, fit, quality, guarantee, etc. Which one looks best? Oh yea, do they all do that "idle thing"?
Rocket
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