starchild
Expert Class
Posts: 366
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posted May 08, 2005 10:57 AM
blown again
hi guys and gals i'm in the process of rebuilding ny motor for a third time i have the 1375 kit from muzzy and i spun a rod bearing for the third time . i would appreciate contact with anyone who has themselves had problems with this kit or someone you know looking for a solution to this problem.i have lost a whole season already and just want to race. thanks for your time and help
  
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MadMike
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posted May 08, 2005 04:50 PM
Have you had your crank balanced? if not Do so!
what rod is spinning and who did your motor? what oil ? how high? etc...
MM
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ninja12
Needs a job
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posted May 08, 2005 06:20 PM
what year engine.
Who did the crank?
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted May 08, 2005 06:58 PM
when you built it, were you 100% positive that:
yr rods are in good shape, no galling on the wrist pins
you had sufficient quench height,
that your rods did not hit the cases or the bottom of the wrist pin bosses
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psycho1122
Pro
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posted May 09, 2005 05:40 AM
What about Rod Orientation?
Condition of the oiling system?
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horsepower
Parking Attendant
Posts: 22
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posted May 09, 2005 05:54 AM
Starchild; Mike here. You most likely have a bad Muzzy crank. Their quality control is bad, and many of the cranks are unuseable as they come. You have to check the rod journals for perfect roundness, and check to see if they have any taper in them from side to side. I have had several that were unuseable brand new, and several people who could not keep rod bearings in the motor, and that was the problem. If you have any questions, you can call me at 615 - 824 - 6116. Mike.
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starchild
Expert Class
Posts: 366
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posted May 09, 2005 05:54 PM
blown again
thank for your time and replies. my builder did mods to the oiling system had about 85lbs.all rod bolts were replaced each time.all rods were machined or replaced.falicon has had this crank three times.number two went first and number one went the next two times.motor blew up with less than300miles this time and less than 100 the first two times.how many have survived? it does not sound like many have.
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jay
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MadMike
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posted May 09, 2005 08:06 PM
 Edited By: MadMike on 9 May 2005 21:42
Make them freaking balance it!!!! they (falacon) talked me out of it the first time and it was total crap! mine spun with less then 300 miles and 3 passes..... I sent mine to APE and had them balance and lighten it! and I had almost 2 years out of her and 600+ passes on her! have it balanced! and you will be happy!!
Mad Mike
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted May 09, 2005 09:06 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 9 May 2005 22:10
Mike,
With all due respect (and with quite a bit of knowlege about who does what to the cranks out there), what is your deal with the balancing? Please give me a cogent explanation of the relationship between balance and bearing life. These are flat cranks. They have inherently correct primary balance. Even if there were to be a small change in the mass of a journal due to fillet weld difference or something equally unlikely, how would this effect oiling or contribute to a rod failure?
Guys, there are only a couple sources for the reworked bike cranks. (This is because, unlike an automotive crank, our cranks have the primary gear cut into them. This requires tooling and gear cutting operations that the car guys just can't justify due to the small quantities.) It would be possible for ANY re-seller to get a bad one from either bike crank supplier at any time.
Everybody tries to ensure that that does not happen, but it could. Remember these strokers are pretty basic. This isn't really even a "race" or "high performance" mod. It's basically a "repair" process no different than is done on THOUSANDS of auto,air , and marine cranks EVERY DAY around the country. Cranks get scarfed up, they get welded up, heat treated and re-ground. Grind the journal off center a couple mm and you've got a stroker. NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. On a flat crank, if it was balanced properly from the factory it will be within acceptable limits after this process.
Now, I've only used Falicons myself since 1988 in 10's,11's, and 12's. I snapped a +5mm mm 11 in half, and tore up a +3mm 11 when my expensive CARILLO rod sawed the cases in half at 195 mph. But that was my fault 'cause I was trying to see how low I could run the oil to cut windage. I found out.
I don't know what the deal is with Starchild's crank, but I'll bet a Liney Red (you can get that in Iowa, can't you Mike?) that it wasn't "balance". And Horsepower, I think you'll agree that if you or someone else purchased a crank from either supplier and put it into his engine without measuring the journals for taper and round, and if he did and found them out of spec, and he didn't raise hell with the supplier or reseller, he may deserve what he gets.
This bugs me. I feel better now.
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osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
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posted May 09, 2005 09:34 PM
quote:
thank for your time and replies. my builder did mods to the oiling system had about 85lbs.all rod bolts were replaced each time.all rods were machined or replaced.falicon has had this crank three times.number two went first and number one went the next two times.motor blew up with less than300miles this time and less than 100 the first two times.how many have survived? it does not sound like many have.
Starchild,
I have a Muzzy 1375 motor in my 12. I don't ride it on the street but I have hundred's(I would have to pull out my log books to give you an exact number) of dragstrip passes on it with no problems of any kind.
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted May 10, 2005 04:46 AM
Starchild, I would certainly have my crank "Triple checked" for the correct machine specs. Take it to a local crank shop after you get it back and have them check it.
Second, I would consider a close check of the cases. My cases got "sprung" somehow and wouldn't let my crank set level. This caused several main bearing issues, that I initially could not figure out! Also make sure, this time that the oil pressure is brought up before they start the motor.
Are you dynoing your motor after each rebuild? This process SHORTENS the engine life dramatically. Tune at the track!!!
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osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
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posted May 10, 2005 08:00 AM
Ra brings up a good point about the cases. I think Entropy had some issues with his cases at one point also. I think it would really be worth checking.
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starchild
Expert Class
Posts: 366
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posted May 10, 2005 12:01 PM
doug what i and everyone else deserves is a kit that works.does not seem that many are working and i'm starting to wonder what that number really is .and the more i ask the more the numbers grow .and the more i hear damage control.my motor has been check and by a compentent engine builder.it seems that all i hear is we do not know how to build motors and you and muzzy are the only ones who can.what i and everyone do not deserve is the condescending arrogant attitude from you .i spent more money trying to get this kit to work than the cost of the kit.i myself have spent thousands of dollars on muzzy products and what i deserve is someone to stand up and say i do beleive in my product and how can i help.and doug if your not the man dont label us incompetent.we are all tired of that and deserve better.oh and doug i feel better now
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
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posted May 10, 2005 12:45 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 10 May 2005 13:46
Good. A little venting always helps. But if you'll back up a bit you'll see I never accused you of any incompetance. I have NO IDEA what is causing your repeated failures and unless I have the parts laid out on my bench I really can't give an opinion. I have a pretty good idea of what I have seen cause bearing problems over the last 40 years though, in all kinds of engines, so I am questioning other people's explanation and name calling regarding your problem. What I do know is that there are hunderds of ZX-12 stroker cranks in the field and maybe (just an educated guess) a 5% failure rate from all causes combined. That's more than acceptable, unless, of course, yours is one of the 5%. I can make one condesending and arrogant comment regarding your post however, and that is if you keep doing the same thing you'll keep getting the same results.
Doug
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entropy
Moderator
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posted May 10, 2005 02:09 PM
Edited By: entropy on 10 May 2005 15:11
I'll say it again:
on this build, are you sure that:
yr rods are in good shape, no galling on the small end/wrist pins
you had sufficient quench height (pistons not hitting the head)
that your rods did not hit the cases
that your crank counterbalancers didn't hit the bottom of the wrist pin bosses
that the cases are straight (no rocking of the crank as ra points out)
that the crank thrust surfaces are not damaged.
I'd worry more about basic set up than the muzzy crank (after yr 3 failures)
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MadMike
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posted May 10, 2005 04:46 PM
Doug all I am going off of is my experience, which of course is about the size of a speed bump in compairson to the Rockey Mountains of experience you have! I trust and follow almost everything you have said or written!! I hope one day to know at least as much as you have forgotten!
The experience I had when I built the motor the first time I spun the bearing with 0 reason as to why it spun?? I had 40 passes on her. I searched and looked at all of the parts and could not find any reason why it had failed. I then sent the crank to falicon and had them fix the first failure, they talked me out of have the crank balanced then. it of course was my decision, but I went along with them. after I put the bike back together I put 400 road miles on her and then went to the track, and spun the bearing on the 3rd pass. at that time I was very upset at the entire deal and I assumed that I had done something during the assembly of the motor. I believe that I might have overtightened the cam chain? but I could not find exactly what had happened but that was the only answer that I could come up with.
I then sent the crank to APE and had them lighten and balance it. assembled the engine and again put 300-400 miles on it, then went to the track, almost 2years later and 600+ passes and I am sold! maybe it was just a coincedence but I very happy with the results.
So maybe I am wrong at insisting someone balance the crank, but in my eyes with my motor it made a huge differance. if my experience would have been different from the first day then I would be reading this post instead of writing on it. Oh and yep we have Liney's Red, and I will take that Bet! you got it. either way it is a win win situation. Oh and SC do everything that Entropy said first! but I would still reccomend having your crank balanced.
I know that is not a very convincing argument doug, but best I can do....
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
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posted May 10, 2005 08:44 PM
Doug M wrote...... "Cranks get scarfed up"
LOL he said "scarfed Up"
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spencercyclecom
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posted May 10, 2005 08:52 PM
okay on a more serious note....
Mike H.
I do not beleive that balancing your crank fixed the problem..... i have never seen that cause a problem...UNLESS you are WAAAAY out of the milky way out of balance. I just dont buy into that.
Did you ever check your oil pressure????(anyone answer this) what was it at idle and what was it at redline in top gears???? and shimming the releif valve does not do ANYTHING for your oil pressure except at high rpm.....
I posted a topic in the Dragbike forums on this...I am curious to as how many of these guys check this???? I would say NOT many....
it should be thing FIRST thing you are looking for at start up of a new engine and you should keep your eye on it during the intial warmup ect ect....
I am going to wait till i see some responses on these questions.... to continue. What Jay did to your crank WHEN in the process of balancing it may have solved your problem...but i dont think it was the balancing
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
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posted May 10, 2005 09:26 PM
So mike,
At which point in your saga did you address the problem of oil starvation at launch? I think you bought a Master Lube no? Liney Reds all 'round! They're on Mike!
There was a point somewhere in the develop[ment of the ZX-12 race bikes (Shoot out, Pro Mod, Super Bike, Pro Stock) early on when we lost several rods (and cases , and heads- very expensive and tiring) We used a Master Lube and then developed the Dry Sump system. After that, I don't think we ever lost another bearing or crank.
Thanks for chippin' in Doug.
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
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posted May 10, 2005 09:52 PM
Edited By: spencercyclecom on 10 May 2005 22:57
Mike never installed the master lube accumulator....that i know of.
I have looked into the Muzzy dry sump....but I would call that a remote sump system since it uses the stock oil pump as the pressure pump and th epump in the kit as the scavenge pump. Correct me if wrong...but doesnt a true dry sump allow the user to set the min and max oil pressure while also having a scavenge pump???? The Muzzy dry sump set up will prevent oil starvation... no doubt.
But the ZX12r when hot at a idle 1200-1400rpm (all the ones i have tested) range from 5-10 psi hot with fresh oil....90psi at redline on the dyno. i think this may be a problem.....would be nice if the zx12r guys had oil pump gear like the Busa guys are able to get to increse pressure at low rpm and then let the pressure releif valve releive the pressure at high rpm.
I am worried about the low oil pressure on a $47,000 Muzzy ZX12R Turbo Prostreet bike that I have now. I am looking into a oil cooler..high end type....to try and keep the oil cooler and the oil pressure around 15-20psi @ Idle.
Doug..can you speak on the oil pressure readings Muzzys hade on Rickeys bike last year.... did it idle with the oil pressure in the 5-12psi range after a 1/4 pass?
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Doug Ray
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
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posted May 10, 2005 11:07 PM
Mike had a masterlube...but i dont know if it was installed or not....as I bought it from him to run on my turbo 12. I did notice the gauge is frozen at 20psi on the bottle(nothing in it either)....whats the warranty on these things...id hate to have to buy a whole new gauge.
That does bring up another question...if the OP is no more than 12PSI at idle....how on earth is that enough to keep the oil in the bottle under pressure to overcome that spring?
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johnnycheese
Pro
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posted May 11, 2005 05:16 AM
one word.
Nitride
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
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posted May 11, 2005 05:33 AM
YCIS,
We have liquid filed gauges instock for that accumulator. Give me a shout
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Doug Ray
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
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posted May 11, 2005 08:31 AM
Brian, if that is broken, NP let me know how much it was and I can pay for it... I never removed it from the box, other then to look at it. or doug give me a call and I can put it on a CC and you can just ship it to Brian...
I did buy the accumulator, but I never put it on. I never felt I had the 60' times to unport the pump. especially seeing the little guys down in the 1.40's. mabe it was an oiling issue, but what ever Jay did helped, maybe it was chamfering the oil holes in the journal, I am not sure? but it was a different animal before and after! So maybe it was not the actual balancing, but it was something they did, or combined with using "regular" oil Kendall GT1, something made a difference.
And I have not checked my oil pressure, so my bad! I have a guage but I did not hook it up.
and Doug if you come to our MIR zone race on June 10th, I will have at least a 12pack of the Red.... LOL.
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THE CLEANER
Parking Attendant
Posts: 4
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posted May 11, 2005 02:57 PM
thank you cheese!! one other difference that mike had done to his crank other than balanced, if he knows that or not. i believe ape's are all nitrided and falacons are not. if its not getting nitrided dont stroke it.
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