frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted April 27, 2005 11:16 AM
how smooth can brakes be?
i detest brakes that are anything but electric smooth. i have a tendency to assume my rotors are always warped (and the OEM set defintieyl did become significantly warped) if there is any pulsating at all, but i'm not sure if my current set are warped or not. last season iwas sure i noticed significant pulsating through the bars when braking at high speeds, but i ran a couple tests yesterday and didnt feel anything significant. however i do see the forks are vibrating a few mm front to back under braking. my question about this is, is it normal? will the forks still exibit this slight "longitudal bounce" (at something 5 to 10Hz) even with perfectly smooth brakes or does this indicate warped rotors?
   
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zx9rcr500r
Expert Class
Kawasakis UNI-TRAK®
Posts: 361
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posted April 27, 2005 08:18 PM
What the hell are you using the brakes for? They just slow you down.
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted April 28, 2005 02:58 AM
the fork vibrations can also be from road imperfections, so the brakes may be fine. since the forks cannot be perfectly stiff (theyhave to flex a little so when leaned over they can absorb bumps) they will always have some motion and vibration to them when dealing with road surfaces.
if you can grab a nice progressive handfull of brake lever and not feel any shuddering or bouncing you are probably fine. most brake-related problems are VERY easy to determine.
poor suspension setup can also give you the feeling that brakes are pulsating or bad, if they bottom out you will definately feel the wheel skip and this may lead to the assumption that the rotors are warped.
however if the wheel slows progressively and stops smoothly, you'll be fine.
hopefully this helps!
(also, change the fluid out ocmpletely every year or so, this will eliminate the high-usage fade that can occur as water saturates the fluid and lowers its boiling point. Change fluid, bleed the air out, and then pump lever up tight and tie it back to the bar overnight. in the morning release it and voila! fresh brakes!)
  
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crashtech
Zone Head
Posts: 574
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posted April 28, 2005 03:29 AM
Replace those buttons!!! Unless you have the use of a dial indicator (or can visually see) to see if they are truely warped. No shit mine were that way right out of the box. I was getting ready to dump some change on Brembo's if we could not fix my EBC's. They work fantastic (smooth) now.
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eastbaydave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted April 28, 2005 06:08 AM
quote:
i detest brakes that are anything but electric smooth. i have a tendency to assume my rotors are always warped (and the OEM set defintieyl did become significantly warped) if there is any pulsating at all, but i'm not sure if my current set are warped or not. last season iwas sure i noticed significant pulsating through the bars when braking at high speeds, but i ran a couple tests yesterday and didnt feel anything significant. however i do see the forks are vibrating a few mm front to back under braking. my question about this is, is it normal? will the forks still exibit this slight "longitudal bounce" (at something 5 to 10Hz) even with perfectly smooth brakes or does this indicate warped rotors?
if your at maximum braking, & your feeling vibration(not pulsing), your probably just right at the point of lockup & the tire is on the verge of losing traction?
Is the tire "chirping" (making sound?)
____________
Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted April 28, 2005 10:36 AM
thanks for all the great info so far guys.
road i tried it on is pretyt smooth, and the vibrations (back and forth, not in the forks' axis of movement) seem to be too steady to be from that. but that may be normal flex as u mention. i guess i never really looked at that issue when i had new, smooth brakes.
fluid was just completely changed (actually, all teh fluid leaked out over the winter due to corroded washers. havent had front brakes for months).
not braking hard enough to be anywhere nead lockup. i remember last summer it mostly happened during light braking, especially at high speed. when i really clamped them down it seemed to reduce the pulsating.
one thing i'm unsure of is whether it's warpage or jsut bad braking surface. because the discs are not stainless, the surface is defintiely affected by winter weather (ie: they're completely rusted). the rust is clearing up but it's got a way to go. so i'm thinking there are just sticky and slippery sections to the surface. altho the discs being fairly clean half way round and still mucho rust hte other half tends to make me think it's warpage too.
either way, i'm gonna replace them in a month or so. EBC offered a pretty killer deal on replacement rotors, which i'll take them up on. i was hoping to just replace the friction surface/discs and buttons, but that's not available with the pro-lites because the buttons use rivets, not circlips. i'm sure the buttons are part of the problem cause they look like they're pretty much rusted shut. doubt there's any float right now (tho that was not hte case last summer when i already noticed warpage).
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted April 28, 2005 10:38 AM
Damn...one would think the rust would be completely ground off/eliminated upon the first application of the brake lever at any sort of speed.
are their giant gouges in the rotors or something?
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted April 28, 2005 10:52 AM
i think the surface is a bit gouged, but not terribly so.
just took a close look, the surface is jsut a little rough, so there is room for the rost to "hide". it's not like i'm talkin big flakes 'o rust like on that old Datsun, just a red surface. one thing is for sure, there is NO float. zero lateral wiggle room on those rotors. i think u have a point about the button sizes crashtech, cause i dont remember them ever having much wiggle room.
anyway, teh surface condition is not really my concern cause no bike brakes were designed to be used thru the winter in a ski resort that isnt afriad to use salt on the roads. only person to blame for that is myself. my concern is jsut warpage and how to detect it and eliminate it. will have to pay good attention when i put the fresh rotors on to see just hwo smooth they are out of the box.
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted April 28, 2005 05:18 PM
put a dial indicator on the fork leg, rotate tire and check for deflection
i had a rust spot once from salty roads. but it was just in the shape of the brake pads where they sat for 2 weeks after a ride. i flushed with water but it apparently wasn't good enough.
o well.
THAT caused a pulsating brake lever and surges in braking.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted April 28, 2005 10:35 PM
that's kinda what i have, but the brakes would rust shut and have to be broken loose every monring. so the discs are covered in so many of those pad shaped rust lines it averages out fairly smooth 
wish i had a dial indicator to do that! bah, i'll just err on the side of caution and replace them
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eastbaydave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted April 29, 2005 03:01 AM
:P = you could do a trackday, that'll clean them right up....
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Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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junior s
Pro
?
Posts: 1644
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posted April 29, 2005 10:02 PM
If the salt has done that much in that short time , consider servicing the suspension too , steering head bearings, shock and linkage and swingarm bearings , wheel bearings and seals ..... etc.
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Get up off your ass and ride !!
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted April 30, 2005 11:06 AM
EBD, if any tech inspector would let my bike on a track, i just might do that
junior, good point. i'm gonan have a full once-over done in a month or so before heading to laguna.
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted May 02, 2005 03:21 AM
Rotors...
Freek,
I just put new tires on my bike and I realized just how annoying "chatter" can be. I too had quite a bit of pulsating in the front when the brakes were applied. Through various shade tree methods  I did manage to improve the situation. However I had my new tires mounted on my spare set of wheels and to my surprise my brakes are now "silky smooth" again. I actually thought my rotors on both wheels were a bit tweaked, but I guess I was wrong. It feels much better now, and it lets me know just how distracting vibrations, pulses, or anything else that shouldn't be there, can be. It definitely drops your confidence level, or it did mine.
I hope you get your problem resolved freek.
On another note, I put a set of BT014s on (190 Rear) and I'm liking them. They seem to grip really well and give a good amount of feedback. I think they'll do a fine job at the gap.
____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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eastbaydave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted May 02, 2005 05:09 AM
forgot to mention...I went away from the EBC HH pads cuz they tear up rotors. They work great, but groove the sh*t out of any rotors I've tried them on (ZRX/ZX.)
I went to the Muzzys PF Carbon pads, & they don't have quite the initial bite of the HH pads (which to some riders is a good thing/racers will like the HH's better); but they actually work pretty darn good, & as-well-as smooth out the torn up rotor surface.
I've very happy w/the carbon pads....excepting the price. Kinda expensive (like double.) But I've now got those pads on BOTH bikes if that tells you anything...
Dave
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Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted May 02, 2005 08:41 AM
EBD,
You might recall when I was recommending the PF CArbons that I cited the progressive nature of the bite on those pads as a plus. IMHO it enables you to grab a handfull in a panic and not worry about any inadvertant wheel lock. I love how smooth they are and how predictable the feel is. More squeeze=more stop. No chatter. also a nice clean release. I really like them on my cars as well.
D.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
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posted May 02, 2005 10:07 AM
ninjaman, i just put new tires on a couple weeks ago, so it's defintiely the brakes. it wasnt so bad earlier but now its getting worse again. i'm starting to think they're not warped but it's the bad surface as it's actually most pronounced at low speeds (like 5mph). in any case, i've got replacement rotors on the way.
i ran the 014s last time (on the rear at least) and liked them ok, but so far i'm liking the M1 better. 010/014 always seemed a bit skitish, like it was a bit too hard and thus would tend to bounce over the imperfections rather than stick to them. still a good tire tho and decent life.
interesting about the pads EBD. already got a replacement set of EBC HHs coming with the rotors, but may be worth trying next time. the rep mentioned to me that bedding in the new rotors with the old pads (like 20 stops) before installing the new pads can make a big difference in pad life. maybe that solves that problem? also i'm gettin the contour rotors which should help with improved wear too from what i understood. EBC cut me a wicked deal on the replacement PRO lites. still i may go with their race rotors next time as they're rebuildable.
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted May 02, 2005 11:08 AM
Yeah, I like the M1s too. Just seems as if I like the 'stones better when the pace gets wicked up.
What psi you runnin'?
____________
What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted May 02, 2005 11:28 AM
damned if i know. whatever the dealership set them at, so prolyl the OEM recomendation. i tend to like them on the hard side, which is to say a coupel PSI below OEM instead of the 5 or more psi under OEM that alot of people seem to like. i jsut prefer the feel to be crisp even at the expense of a little grip.
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Hells Dark Lord
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
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posted May 02, 2005 01:36 PM
M1 is a great tire, I would use nothing but them or Supercorsas on the 12...BUT.......this weekend I was forced into a set of tires. I showed at the track with Pirelli Slicks on the 10 and it was raining. Cant ride slicks in the rain, so I headed to the Michelin truck to see what he had. It was Michelin, or Dunlop, and I wasnt paying for dunlop race tires, adn not using the 208's, i dont care for them much...
So I had a set of Pilot Powers mounted on the 10........man o man.....if these perform as well on the dry street, as they did on the wet track I am hooked......they let me drag knees nad keep up with some of the novice WERA guys out on Nashville Superspeedway. I got to ride them a little bit yesterday, nothing really fast, but a nice brisk pace and they were perfect.
When I get a chance to really dog them out some I will post a final opinion then. But as of right now, I fully expect them to be my next tire of choice. And this comming from a guy that despised the Pilot Sports, just ask Roger......lmbo
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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frEEk
Administrator
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posted May 02, 2005 02:18 PM
HDL, i've heard nothing but rave reviews on the Pilot Powers, but they're a bit more pricey than the M1 (within reason tho) and (my main objection) they aparently dont wear as well. as is, i'm not expecting the M1 to run as long as the 014 which may see me going to something else later. i detest having to change tires at less than 2500 miles. frankly even 3000 doesnt cut it for me, and that's under pretty average usage.
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Hells Dark Lord
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
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posted May 02, 2005 07:06 PM
I hear ya freek, but I wont get 3000 miles out of any rear tire, not even the OEm 208 gave me that many miles. Liek I said, so far they are really great as far as handling. I got them mounted and blanced on the rims for $270 a set. 120/70 front, and a 190/50 rear. So tha tis a pretty fair price. I found a few places I can get them for about $250 to the door, butthen I had to get them mounted and balanced as well.
The M-1 I can get for about $230 to the door, adn then have to pay mounting and balanceing...so the price is very comperable. If they wear like an M-1 they will be the shizit.....only time and miles will tell. What I need to do is play with the air pressure a bit and see what helps, i am still running the track pressure the michelin guy recommended. 32 front and 30 rear. they held well on the street, but I will wear them out fast at that pressure.
I will keep ya posted
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted May 02, 2005 08:23 PM
i fergot if ur still running a 12 or ur on a 10 now? i'm guessing a 10 cause 3000miles woudl be damn good mileage for a 12. even my slow and mostly commuting ass dont get 3000miles out of the 010/014.
i was looking at $400CDN + M&B ($80) + 15% taxes for the PP, vs $360 + + for the M1. like i said, price wasnt too far off, but my understanding is the PP will wear out significantly faster than teh M1. bit more $ and bit less wear doesn't please my scottish blood.
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted May 03, 2005 03:14 AM
The 12R just friggin' eats tires eh. The M1 that I just took off the rear of my bike had a whopping 1050 miles on it and it was toast. (I know what yer thinkin' Jim ) I actually took it pretty easy on that tire, but in my case it appears to not really matter how I ride. Oh well, as Harry would say "Two tears in a bucket,...fuck it".
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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eastbaydave
Needs a job
Posts: 2245
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posted May 03, 2005 03:49 AM
quote:
EBD,
You might recall when I was recommending the PF CArbons that I cited the progressive nature of the bite on those pads as a plus. IMHO it enables you to grab a handfull in a panic and not worry about any inadvertant wheel lock. I love how smooth they are and how predictable the feel is. More squeeze=more stop. No chatter. also a nice clean release. I really like them on my cars as well.
D.
oh yeah your perfectly correct. I think these pads would be GREAT for most street riders. I only mentioned the stronger "initial bite" of the HH's cuz a few riders (AMA racers/club racers/highly-skilled road racer types) might like that initial bite more (some ham-fisted squids might end up on their ear!) :P
If I were racing, & I was worried about out-braking folks off of straights into hairpins/etc., I might opt for the HH's. Most street riders don't need (or can use) that capability. I haven't tried the carbons on the track yet; got a trackday later this season when I will get to do that- & a ride report will follow. BTW, using them w/EBC "Turbo Race" SS rotors.
For the majority of street riders the Muzzys carbons are clearly a better solution...
____________
Enjoy the ride!
02' ZRX1200
00' ZX12R sold
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