aliveagain
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posted April 22, 2005 07:26 PM
Question on measuring rod diameter.Once the rod bolts are torqued to get the measurement,that means you'ld have to buy new bolts again for installation,right?Or is that only after the bolts have been stretched?
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
  
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dougmeyer
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posted April 22, 2005 08:11 PM
No, you don't need to replace the bolts. Actually you don't need to torque them to the full stretch when measuring. The kawasaki bolts recover to their original length when loosened and bolt engineers will tell you that if they go back to the original length when relaxed, they can be re-used without worry. Rather than dick with it , I just tighten them to the initial value without the extra 120? deg. The rod cap is fully seated at that point and the measurement is accurate.
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aliveagain
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posted April 23, 2005 05:52 AM
Great info,thanx Doug,hope your enjoying the new job.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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dougmeyer
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posted April 23, 2005 06:28 AM
Thx, Havin a great time. I spent all last week at the Sun 'n Fun Fly-In at Lakeland Fl neck deep in every kind of airplane you can imagine. Some guy had a P-51 replica powered by a (heaven forbid) Harley V-twin. Nothing sounds like the original, though. I could listen to those Merlin engines all day (and did).
For all you military airplane fans- at the close of the airshow each day they did a "heritage fly by" which consisted of several very low passes of a tight four ship formation, led by a P-51 with an immaculate polished F-86 Sabre on one side, an F-16 on the other with a camo painted F-4 Phantom in the slot representing the four major air war campaigns. The '51 was balls out and the F-4 was barely staying in the air. Quite a sight (and sound). You could hear the F-4 guy playing the throttles to stay in position. Gotta love it.
D.
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psycho1122
Pro
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posted April 23, 2005 07:07 AM
EXCELLENT info on the rod bolts Doug!
GREAT to see things are going so good for you!
I'm also GLAD to still have you with us................ 
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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aliveagain
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posted April 23, 2005 11:36 AM
I probably shouldn't complain about repair cost until I looked at what the upkeep on one of those planes are.Ironically,I hear most pilots are down to earth people.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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dougmeyer
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posted April 23, 2005 01:45 PM
 Edited By: dougmeyer on 23 Apr 2005 14:46
Alive,
A very wealthy buddy once told me that when he was inquiring about the cost of owning a Mustang, the owner said to him, "Let me put it this way. Can you write a $10,000 check without thinking twice about it or worrying that you might have to write another the next week? If you can't, you can't afford it."
There is alot of "crossover" between the aviation indusry and motorcycle industry. I've found that seemingly most recreational pilots also have some type of bike. ( and alot of motorcycle enthusiasts at least have an interest in aviation).
Doug
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aliveagain
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posted April 23, 2005 02:32 PM
As I sit here awaiting for my crank and rods,whats the turn around time for parts on a mustang?LOL provided the American Express can stretch that far.I would think N.O.S.parts would be rather thin.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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ninja12
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posted April 23, 2005 02:49 PM
quote:
As far as the manual numbers go - remember these are mass production specs and service limits not optimum numbers for a race engine. And the others are just my opinion.
I value your opinion very much. When it come to engine builders giving honest info
you are one of the best. Just using the manual as referance to point out that your numbers were on the tight end for rods and the loose end for mains.
what is a good race range fo mains 0025-?.
Any pointer on increasing oil pressure or supply .
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dougmeyer
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posted April 23, 2005 08:59 PM
Ninja,
Maybe I should put it this way. If I had to go a little bigger than .0025 on the mains, it wouldn't bother me. If I couldn't get at least .0002 on the rods, I'd be a little unhappy with that.
Not getting there is not a deal breaker, it's just how satisfied you are with the job, how close to what you consider "perfect" you can get.
Alive,
Actually NOS parts for Merlins and Allisons aren't that hard to come by (though many items like pistons are manufactured new) since although most of the fighter airplanes were scrapped, the engines were not and there were, of course more engines than aircraft. Also In Britain there were several multi engine aircraft (like the 4 engine Lancaster bomber and some transports) that were used after the war and had to be supported.
Doug
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ninja12
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posted April 24, 2005 04:15 PM
thanks, i have plans to install a set of carrillos this year, and appreciate all the info i can get.
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dougmeyer
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posted April 24, 2005 04:41 PM
Don't waste your money. Stock ZX-12 rods are MORE than adequate for anything you want to do.
FYI, the Gadson Shootout bike (400-500 hp) the ZX-12 Pro Stocker (300+or-, the ZX-12 Bonneville and top speed bikes all used stock rods. Never the slightest problem. If I was going to build any 12 for any purpose tomorrow, I'd use the stock rods.
There are lots of bikes and cars that need beefier rods but the 12 isn't one of them.
Doug
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dougmeyer
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posted April 24, 2005 04:41 PM
Don't waste your money. Stock ZX-12 rods are MORE than adequate for anything you want to do.
FYI, the Gadson Shootout bike (400-500 hp) the ZX-12 Pro Stocker (300+or-, the ZX-12 Bonneville and top speed bikes all used stock rods. Never the slightest problem. If I was going to build any 12 for any purpose tomorrow, I'd use the stock rods.
There are lots of bikes and cars that need beefier rods but the 12 isn't one of them.
Doug
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted April 24, 2005 10:16 PM
Doug,
I have been following this advice since since my 1st 1361build in early 2001.
However, my offset block seems to present additional challenges...
ZX12 Prostock changes pistons how often??
Carrillos this time around.
Yup!
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted April 25, 2005 05:50 AM
No more stock rods on 12's for my builds either, anyone want a Muzzy billet bigblock for a paperweight??? stock rods my a$$ it could have been the MTC pistons that cause the rod faiilure either way neither again
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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NINJA12
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posted April 25, 2005 07:01 AM
i'll take it!
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johnnycheese
Pro
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posted April 25, 2005 08:49 AM
quote:
i'll take it!
i will ask the customer but it can not be repaired
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Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
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NINJA12
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posted April 25, 2005 01:50 PM
Ouch, Hurt that bad huh?
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dougmeyer
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posted April 25, 2005 04:07 PM
I simply don't believe that the rods failed. (Since I've never seen one fail myself, and I've seen alot of them) Now I've seen broken ones, and destroyed blocks and cases, but the rod wasn't the start of the failure chain. It was always something else, usually a lost bearing due to oil starvation. If that happens with a $600 set of rods, well they get ruined, too.
Now, it's possible that on the offset setup there could be some extra load and wear due to the assymetrical pin loading, so I'd like to see what that looks like. And yeah, of course the pistons got changed out on the P/S if they showed some signs of wear, but it wasn't a regular thing by any means. Somebody show me a failed rod. Then Ill believe it :-)
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entropy
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posted April 25, 2005 11:15 PM
Edited By: entropy on 26 Apr 2005 00:17
quote:
.... Somebody show me a failed rod. Then Ill believe it :-)
As the tight-lipped builder he is, Johnny won't give details, but...
Buddy's rod (on his 1427) snapped right off, just below the pin. NO oiling problems, in fact Coby checked out the crank and found it perfect, didn't even need straightening, NO journal damage, installed it as is on a small block motor he had "laying around" (with Carrillos). Now Buddy is back in the saddle (sort of, long story, NOT motor related)
Doug, I do TREMENDOUSLY respect your knowledge, but something is fishy about the 87mm block and the way it eats rods & pistons with a stroker crank. Yes, I know I have hi CR, racing application, etc, etc, etc . I don't expect 25,000 mi, but 25 passes would be good.
I am NOT saying that Carrillos will necessarily solve the problem, but something is wrong, beyond simple oiling. I have replaced everything else, multiple times, only thing left is rods (that I know of).
If Muzzy knows a set up which allows better rod/piston/pin life on a 87mm stroker, I'd sure like to see it. yes, indeed, I would.
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dougmeyer
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posted April 26, 2005 03:25 PM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 26 Apr 2005 16:27
I'll look into it when I get back home next week. Maybe I'm missing something. Small end failures usually result from pin/rod -fit/oil problems or piston scuff / seizures. Did the pin seize in the rod or piston? Was there evidence of piston scuffing/ seizing. I'm not convinced. Something yanked the end off, it didn't just break. BUT having said that, shit everything breaks once in a while. Maybe it was a bad rod. Not exactly an epidemic, though.
Doug
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addisonzx12
Expert Class
Posts: 213
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posted April 26, 2005 04:00 PM
The way I would look at is. If you are building the engine with the best of everything. Spending big bucks, why not the rods too? Even if the stock rod is strong enough, why take the chance? Everyone seems to agree that the Carrillos are better than stock. So why not have the best? And have more peace of mind to boot!!
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dougmeyer
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posted April 26, 2005 06:06 PM
Because if you look close, they may not be "better". They are stronger, sure, but stronger than strong enough is a waste. Ask yourself, How do you think they make them "stronger"..........?
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ninja12
Needs a job
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posted April 26, 2005 09:58 PM
Doug does Muzzy add the sprayers to the other two pistons?
If so how is this accomplished?
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted April 27, 2005 05:00 AM
quote:
Because if you look close, they may not be "better". They are stronger, sure, but stronger than strong enough is a waste. Ask yourself, How do you think they make them "stronger"..........?
Doug you are starting to ask my kind of questions.........hmmmmm!!!
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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