NOS1290
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted February 18, 2005 02:22 AM
Rings for 1270 kit?
I have an unemployed friend trying to put his 1270 back together this winter on a very tight budget.
Urban legend has it that Muzzy designed the custom J&E piston set (85.4mm if I remember)around a stock Kawasaki ring set that they could get cheaply from the factory. Does anyone know if this is true, and what the rings are from? $40 / hole is pretty steep! Your help is appreciated.
  
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted February 18, 2005 06:43 AM
The rings for my 1270 kit came in simple clear bags, if I remember correctly. I would have been pissed off to find a Kawasaki part #.....but it sure would be good to know for the future.....
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NOS1290
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted February 18, 2005 12:27 PM
I think I heard from someone 2 or 3 years ago that they were sourced from a small twin. Got an e-mail an hour ago that it might be from a Vulcan 750. Any ideas from you ZX12 trivia hounds?? I need to help out this friend of mine because I'm sick of only racing Busas.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 18, 2005 01:03 PM
YEP! 1mm rings are from Japan. 1270 kit specific.
Muzzy is THE source.
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted February 18, 2005 01:30 PM
Urban Legend! Hah that's a good one. Those rings were sourced specifically because they are thinner and work better. No flutter, loghter, better seal.
Doug
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NOS1290
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted February 18, 2005 02:18 PM
Doug,
Thanks for setting the record straight. Thats why I qualified the statement as an urban legend.
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted February 25, 2005 12:26 AM
Better Seal?!?!?! If I didn't have hands on experience with half the things you say, I would really believe you..........
However, I feel that some balance should be added at this point. Your reference to no flutter and a "Better" seal is "TIME SENSITIVE". When initially installed the seal is fine. However, that seal does not last very long.
Initially started the bike in March, went to bike week, the bike ran fine. No noticeable smoke and some power improvement. However, within 2 months it was noticed that oil usage was occuring. With the OEM there was NO, may I repeat NO oil usage. However, as the summer wore on, about every 4 tanks fulls or a good weekend of aggressive riding (on the street) it would use a predictable 1 quart of oil. By the end of the summer after every wide open run the bike would smoke something terrible for a bit and power was down. I took the bike to a dyno and tested and it was down from an initial 170hp to 158hp (with bad smoke on decel). Had several other (PROFESSIONAL) sources diagnose the symptoms as "WORN OUT RINGS", or bad ring seal.
So I changed brands over the next year to "THICKER RINGS" as recomended by reputable source with even bigger pistons and after over 7000 miles of hard miles and RACING, I did not have the same problems at the end of 5 months.
So Doug, I miss the joke! Your "good" advice has cost me alot of money!!!
There is an after market company that can supply a better set of rings. I am in Las Vegas right now but can post later the name of the company.
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 26, 2005 08:57 AM
"bad ring seal"
There is definately something missing in your situation. I have NOT experienced any such problems with my initial 1270 kit or after a rebuild( due to 3rd. gear failure) and replacing the rings on the pistons.
To this day...4000+ miles later...I still maintain 240+ psi per hole with NO oil usage. I attribute this to proper prep., clean environment and proper assembly of the engine. The cylinder coating is VERY HARD and proper loading of the rings in the first 20-40 miles of operation is critical to good ring seal.
Obvious things like a CLEAN airbox and maintainance help.
Sorry Ra...Dougs advice is VERY GOOD. I feel the "Application" of the advice is where the problems start. 
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted February 27, 2005 09:32 AM
I would expect nothing less than support for Muzzy on this site,,,,,,,,, However, the truth is the truth.
Psycho, I am glad that you have had a good experience so far. I am always happy for fellow "bikers" success. We spend good money to enjoy ourselves. I had over ten thousand miles on my 1270 by the time I "switched" brands. With about 20 thousand on the bottom I disassembled the cases and the crank and rod bearings were fine.
The 1270 is an "odd" number bore. This gives it the proprietary nature of being a muzzy kit. However, the rings are a custom thickness also, maintaining the need for muzzy. It is all about control of the money. But, the statement less flutter and better seal?! All you have to do is CALL a ring manufacturer and ASK them. Simple give the physical measurments and ask if they are better to reduce flutter and increase seal.
We were originally ADVISED that the 1270cc was choosen because of wall strength. However, MULTIPLE ENGINE BUILDERS(which muzzy is NOT) have proven that the 1290(standard 3mm) is working just fine. Personally I give muzzy enough credit and first hand product supply from kawasaki to know these things. So I say that the information shared with their buying public is "lacking" to be nice. There has been ALOT of misleading advice.
Sorry Psycho, some of Dougs advice was VERY BAD.
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted February 27, 2005 09:47 AM
Ra,
did you ever figure out the alternative source for the 1270 rings???
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 27, 2005 10:02 AM
Ra;
The only difference between the Muzzy kit and the 1290 is the rings and machining of the JE blanks. SAME SIZE PISTONS. The 1290 needs a bigger bore to allow for larger (Higher Friction etc.) rings.
Your info on the Muzzy rings is incorrect, They are resourced out of Japan and are not "Custom".
Once again. Dougs advice is solid......unfortunately, the application is where the problems tend to start.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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dougmeyer
Needs a job
moderated
Posts: 2713
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posted February 27, 2005 11:07 AM
Psycho, the pistons are NOT the same. The 1270 is an 85.4 bore.
Ra, there are MANY thousands of those rings in service. I can't think of a single case where a bad bore seal was the RESULT of the rings. Properly engineered, thinner rings are lighter, and they do provide better sealing ability, resist flutter at high RPM. You will almost always find this on purpose built race engines. I was first exposed to this on the Cosworth DFV F-1 engines I worked on in 1973. Maybe you noticed that as well, but forgot. And, yes, the added bore thickness has proven to be an advantage as well. But hey , you get around alot more than I so maybe you have some data I haven't seen............
Doug
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 28, 2005 07:17 AM
So we are talkin' .6mm on the bore. OK I was informed that the extra bore on the 1290 was needed to accomadate the rings.
Learn something new everyday.............
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted February 28, 2005 01:16 PM
Apology accepted PSYCHO!!! Maybe you should change the source of your information. (smile)
Properly engineered..... that is probably the operative phrase. However, that has certainly been an area for improvement for muzzy's. Doug I don't remember the 1270 being marketed as an purpose built race kit? With proper installation a bad seal results from two things if using nickelsil cylinders. So you are blaming the cylinder bore and plating?! I guess that would be "poor engineering"?! There may be a bunch of kits running around (which there is) but, I know first hand what I am talking about. So now you know about one!
What is the advantage of the added bore thickness??? Seeing NO PROBLEMS with a standard 3mm bore kit..........
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted March 01, 2005 08:07 AM
Ra: I received your message....thank you!!!
I tried to reply, but your email provider bounced my message, taking it as spam....
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted March 01, 2005 08:30 AM
Definately no apology going in your direction Ra!
No need for it due to the fact that the issue here is the RINGS and the integrity of the seal.
As usual, you have some MAJOR issues and seem to be one of the few that have them 
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted March 03, 2005 10:38 AM
Psycho, I realize that your pride prevents you from "Bowing to the Ra Supremecy", so I will accept what you profess to be.......... "PSYCHO"!!!
The mind is a terrible thing to waste..
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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kneeburner
Expert Class
Posts: 102
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posted March 03, 2005 04:42 PM
 Edited By: kneeburner on 3 Mar 2005 16:43
Psycho Psycho Psycho................. Love ya man ........where's my bud light......
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