ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted January 31, 2005 09:02 PM
2000 zx12 engine problems
I thinking the 2000 had oiling problem with the #3 rod.
I know of (6) 2000 engines with #3 rod damage,
(2) with center main problems (1) of these also hurt the #3 rod .
Total 8 engines, atleast 4 never had the oil pan off
2 strokers. Point being #3 rod in almost every case.
Some of these were Race bikes, not saying never raced,
but still on the orignial clutch.
I don't hear or see any other year blowing up like the 2000
MADMIKE how times yours blow? Bet when you check your problem is #3.
Karl how many times your been on the bench. how many time was it #3?
I know they changed the part number on the cases, wonder why? Anybody out there with a high milage 2000?
How are you riding it?
What are the odds of 7 out of 8 engine dying the same death.
I remember Lil Red in TN , she still kicking? any others?
  
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tuusinii
Pro
Posts: 1031
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posted January 31, 2005 11:10 PM
I have '00 with almost 50k miles. Only on street though but also long days on German autobahn with averiges over 200kph(150MPH)  Only mecanical problem was when I had to change the gear change dogs 1 year ago. And one clutch two years ago...
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted February 01, 2005 05:46 AM
I also know of several 2000's in my area with the SAME death. These were not race bikes. I can name 5 different guys without thinking.
Interesting thought.........
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted February 01, 2005 06:40 AM
The interesting questions are...what is different about these cases and can the 2000 cases be modded to be the same as the 2001 and newer cases???
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted February 01, 2005 08:17 AM
on Stock motors. I have only seen bearings fail from Low Oil, No Oil, or after the bike was laid over! sorry guys but it is the truth. my motor is different. it is a race motor I cant remember the last time it even saw the street.
The first time I spun a bearing it was #3, I am not sure why? never did find an answer. I do believe it had something to do with me racing with a dry block for one event? but not 100%. The second time was the #4 bearing and that was caused by overtightening the cam chain. and this last time was the third time with 2 years and probably over 500 passes, I am not sure why it went this time and I am not sure which one but I will know in a couple of weeks.
I do not believe it is a problem with the engine. I believe a lot of people ran their motors low on oil, or dropped the bikes. but this is from what I have seen only.
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NINJA12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted February 01, 2005 12:56 PM
 Edited By: NINJA12 on 1 Feb 2005 13:08
Mike, Sorry can't agree with you on this .
First time we saw this people were running low oil for Drag racing.
Most of these were not race bikes.
Just for discussion, why ALWAY #3 even if the oil is low?
Why are the 2001-2004 not having the same faith?
How many 02+ have rod problem? The only 02+
i ever saw had the trash muzzy crank.
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MadMike
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posted February 01, 2005 03:04 PM
Well I have a Muzzy crank in mine and have done just fine for the application, and it is not even close to trash! I did have mine balanced and lightened and I would reccomend that to anyone, and require it if I am building the motor! but that goes for ANY crank.
There has to be a weakest point of everything, that being the first area to lose when the pressure is down, must be the #3 rod, either being the oil galley is the farthest away or might be the closest to the pump, being the first to lose oil when the pump sucks air. I have seen a 2001that spun a bearing, again about 300 miles after he laid it down.
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted February 01, 2005 03:41 PM
greenglenn has like a million miles on his '00
but then again he has the canadian version soooo...
(stir stir stir)
  
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted February 01, 2005 07:55 PM
Easy Big Mike, I know not all the Muzzy cranks were trash, but i think we all remember when they had a supplier/hardness problem.
Remember when builders across america were not washing the cranks. My buddy gets fighting mad every time he hears the Muzzy name. 2 trash cranks back to back with no help from them.
When he sent it to APE the problem went away, same builder.
For the record I like Muzzy products, and have much respect Doug I just feel they handle the crank problem very poorly.
I know of (1) 2000 that has a million miles also but these are exceptions.
I recall the 2000 mile break-in, Don't hear much about that anymore.
Something changed and i'd like to find out what.
Don't really want to focus on builder error or supplier problems on this thread.
Anybody build both engines and notice any difference?
I know the (J) rods used in earily 2000s are no longer available.
NO MORE FINGER POINTING!
let's talk this out, OK?
I also think the 2001+ cases have lower deck height resulting in higher compression based on (1) engine case replacement.
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TurboBlew
Moderator
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posted February 01, 2005 08:20 PM
I think Doug Meyer covered this ad naseum. 
Remember when everyone thought ZX11s had a bad #3 bearing problem too?
Ive seen bikes that were cared for with "heir to the throne" type treatment and lose a motor. Guess what the problem was????
LOW FUCKING OIL LEVEL. No mystery there.
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NINJA12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted February 02, 2005 08:14 AM
Edited By: NINJA12 on 2 Feb 2005 08:49
Why would anyone run low oil unless they are racing?
Why the same #3 rod? (consider 4 rods and 5 mains)
Why only 2000?
Why did Kaw change the rods?
Why did Kaw change the cases?
2000 case # 14001-1283
2001 case # 14001-1286
2002 case # 14001-1295
2003 case # 14001-1295
2004 case # 14001-1305
Why all these changes?
cranks, rods, trans all interchange.
WE know atleast the clutch oiling problem was addressed?
Anyone hear anything else about 2000 mile break-in since 2000?
I could be wrong but at least look at this with an open mind.
I've had (3) of MY engines die with #3 rod
only (1) of these engines was what i consider a race engine(i shot it to dealth ), other (2) bone stock, (1) never saw the track!
Now i've paid my zx12 dues.
I've owned and ridden bikes for over 30 years and the only other engine to die on me was a race bike. I run my oil at the top line with Mobil 15-50 syn. I have driven several cars to over 200k miles. I take care of my stuff.
Just so you know a little about why I NEED ANSWERS.
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TurboBlew
Moderator
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posted February 02, 2005 10:38 AM
Kawi changed rods from 2000 cause they thought they had a bad batch. Hence the superseed to 2001 parts.
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MadMike
Moderator
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posted February 02, 2005 11:12 AM
I do know on the "J" rods they were a different weight.
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NOS1290
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted February 02, 2005 01:11 PM
I have been watching this thread for a bit, and would like to offer a different perspective. Every person who pushes these motors beyond the 160 hp they were designed for should expect to make serious upgrades and modifications to the oiling system, and pay the price it costs to do it right. I don't know too many people building Busa motors that don't bump oil pressure and redirect oil flow for more pressure to the rods. The Busa appears to have a better oiling system. On the 12, two rods feed off a single main (#2 and #4) vs. each rod feeds off its own main. On the 12, 2 rod sprayers shoot at rod 2 and 4. On the Bus, each rod has its own sprayer. On the 12 I have seen oil pressure bypass set in the low to mid 40s psi. On the Bus, its set in the 50s.
All of these things are easy to rectify with the right engine builder.
Bump your pressure to 90 - 100 psi.
Choke down the flow to unnecessary parts. The balancer, alternator, and tranny get almost unlimited flow. Stupid in retrospect.
Spray at the other 2 rods.
line hone the cases (only if you don't have "blue" main bearings, and run the mains tight to keep the oil pressure up.
buy a decent set of rods if you can afford them. Size the rods if you can't afford them. I have measures several sets that were out of round by .001. Thats half the clearance. Lots of other little things...
Any other thoughts or tricks out there?
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NINJA12
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posted February 02, 2005 02:47 PM
Edited By: NINJA12 on 2 Feb 2005 14:48
All good stuff.
1. Bump your pressure to 90 - 100 psi....
a. shim oil pressure and replace oil pump.
2. Choke down the flow to unnecessary parts.
a. muzzy balancer plug
b. how do you reduce oil to alternator and trans?
3. Spray at the other 2 rods.
a. looks easy enough to tap into the line, but how do you meter the spray.
b. anyone provide this service?
4. line hone the cases .
a. WOW, building to the next level.
b. recommendations on who and how much?
c. How far off have you seen the mains?
5. buy a decent set of rods if you can afford them.
a. Carrillo if you can.
6. Size the rods if you can't afford #5
a. Where and how much?
Thanks,
These are great building tips any others?
What would you do to a good running Stocker, 2000 , and really didn't want to tear it down just for insurance.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted February 03, 2005 06:45 AM
I have to agree with MadMike........
quote:
Every person who pushes these motors beyond the 160 hp they were designed for should expect to make serious upgrades and modifications to the oiling system
The oiling system is fine, "Cavitation" during operation will cause the failures you may see.
quote:
On the 12 I have seen oil pressure bypass set in the low to mid 40s psi.
??? I get 35-40 psi @ 4-4500 prm cruzin' down the freeway.
I also see "pop-off" at 75-80 psi above 8,000 rpm.
Obviously, that engine had a problem!
PROPER bearing clearance and Oiling system maintenance are all that is nessessary to have GOOD oiling on the 12.
Heavy RACING applications may need to address momentary cavitation elimination.
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TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
Posts: 4590
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posted February 03, 2005 07:57 AM
Hey NOS... do you do your own work or have access to a machine shop?
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted February 03, 2005 10:55 AM
#2 first to go when oil supply is interrupted. important suff, oil... 
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NORTY
Novice Class
Posts: 47
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posted February 13, 2005 09:45 AM
Maybe it's an oil starvation problem. I know for dwarf car racing, they fabricate a "oil drain tube" on the side of the engine to more quickly get the oil back to the sump from the top-end. I suppose with a "low-oil" level, this could contribute to the bearing failure. I'm a tribologist, so I deal with lubrication questions all the time. Bearing failures breakdown like this:
1. DIRT....46.92%
2. Misalignment...14.29%
3. Misassembly....11.29%
4. OVERLOAD....... 9.58%
5.LACK OF LUBRICATION...8.50%
6. CORROSION......................5.17%
7. INDETERMINATE AND OTHER CAUSES...3.75%
DIRT,LOW OIL LEVEL,IMPROPER GRADE OF OIL,EXCESSIVE OIL TEMP,OVERLOADING/OVERSPEEDING ENGINE,CONTINUED "PINGING",IMPROPER OIL PRESSURE, INFREQUENT OIL CHANGES,CORROSION,NORMAL WEAR.
THESE 10 THINGS WILL KILL A MOTOR QUICKER THAN PARIS HILTON.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted February 13, 2005 06:35 PM
Every Water Cooled in line 4 Kawasaki built from 1984 to present has had this problem. The worst cause was the "T" Oil pipe they used added to the poor return of Oil to the case.
The Oil Squirters are only on #2 and #4 piston, but if you allow the Squirters on #1 and #3 pistons, you increase windage and decrease oil flow to the crank bearings.
It is usually caused by a lack of oil that is usually caused by a lack of Oil return or acceleration starving the pick up and hence the Oil Pump. SO if you add Oil Pressure, this will not help, If you raise the Oil level, it will help some. To cure it completely, either use an Accumulator or Muzz Man Dry Sump Oil System!
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NOS1290
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted February 15, 2005 05:02 AM
Rick Stetson (508 366-1455) has been doing oiling mods for years on old school GSXRs and late model Busa's and 1000s. He also modifies 12s. Very few engine builders do this stuff. Mr. Hill is correct, but all his concearns can be addressed - must be addressed if you want to reduce chance of spinning bearings. Basics are simple; get more oil to the rods, cut down oil to what doesn't need it, get oil returning more freely, blueprint the pump for more efficiency, increase the pressure, get the rods and mains round and alligned, etc, etc, etc. I'm a big fan of extra squirters and ceramic coatings because I keep overheating wristpins and galling the small end of the rods.
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GreenGlenn
Expert Class
Ron Jeremy's Stunt Double
Posts: 370
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posted February 16, 2005 12:56 PM
I can think of a reason - the freeking oil sump window will never show any oil! I over filled by a quart and a half and still saw no oil in the damn window. As far as I can tell, the only way to check the oil level on my bike ('00) is to drain it and refill it with the proper amount. That truly sucks, especially since I've been using oil, I'm too broke at the moment to fix it and I just have to SWAG it as to how much oil to put in to top it off.
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NINJA12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted February 18, 2005 09:48 AM
I think you may have a different problem.. The 200 did have a slow window, but with patients it did show. A mod is to drill the hole bigger from the inside of the window.
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johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted February 23, 2005 08:11 AM
if you buy new cases you get a bigger window for the 2000 year.
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NINJA12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted February 23, 2005 10:06 AM
Will the new windows bolt up to the 2000 cases without mods?
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