slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted January 27, 2005 06:37 PM
an employer has every right to make choices about their business...
if my employer told me tomorrow to stop riding or be fired, i'd look for another job.
if i chose to ride and got caught and fired, well, it was my choice, my risk.
sorry, that's life in a FREE market controlled by PRIVATE individuals and PRIVATE ownership of companies. the day that it is the GOVERNMENT and everyone else that makes the decisions for the private individual is the day that it is time to hunker down and retake this nation.
IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE POLICIES OF YOUR EMPLOYER, FIND ANOTHER.
if you have advanced warning of a policy change, and choose to continue violation of that policychange, you deserve every bit of what you get.
addison: it is absolutely amazing that you scream freedom on one hand, yet you decide it is YOUR place to make THEIR policy choices for them. they do not FORCE you to work there. you are not FORCED to stay there. If you don't like their policies, then by all means leave...
why does a person cease to have rights when they become an employer?
why does a company cease to have any ability to determine whom it hires and fires without having to play "mother may i" with the government or some other entity? apparently freedom is only popular when it benefits the ones doing the talking...
      
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted January 27, 2005 08:03 PM
The funny part is that the employer in the article says that overweight employees are next on his list. Can't wait for him to try that one. Though there is no legal recourse for the smoking employees, discriminating against those he might consider to be overweight is illegal. Even if he did not fire those that did not lose weight, offering financial incentives to those that do lose weight is viewed as discrimination by the courts. It doesn't matter if I agree with it or not, but he'll have a much harder time pulling that one off. Of course, he could just go after those that drink beer instead. Or maybe he could go after Christians or Jews or Asians or.... Blacks instead.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted January 27, 2005 08:16 PM
and once he goes after the 'large' or the Asians or Blacks, he's done. because now he has gone beyond behavior to physical traits...
though one could argue gross overweight can be a behavior...butinmany cases it's not 100% behavior.
he crosses the line from a choice to a trait and he is wrong.
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addisonzx12
Expert Class
Posts: 213
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posted January 27, 2005 08:41 PM
Slug, your thought process bewilders me. What gives ANYBODY the right to tell someone what they can and cannot do? As long as the activity is legal. An employer does not LOSE any rights, but they don't get any special ones either! What if the employer said you can't enroll your kids in the school of your choice, make love to your wife, skydive, scuba dive, etc.? The point is, it's none of their damn business what someone does AFTER working hours & OFF their properry! It's called PRIVACY!! I just don't see how ANYONE could possibly think any employer could tell an employee what they can & cannot do 24 hours a day! That sounds absurd to me.
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addisonzx12
Expert Class
Posts: 213
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posted January 27, 2005 08:55 PM
Freek, maybe you misunderstood my first post? I in no way care who an employer hires, or their policies. It's just they have no right to pry into a employees personal life.
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted January 28, 2005 03:52 AM
apparently freedom only applies to you and no-one else then.
you have every right to associate with or not associate with people based on their personal lives etc. how they act, what they do.
if you know that jimbob knobknocker is gay and screwing every guy he can bed, are you going to hang out with him?
probably not...
but now you have made their private life a discriminatory issue...
myself and every human being i know makes choices on who to associate with, who to work with, who NOT to deal with, all based on our views of their behavior and THEIR habits. personal or otherwise. before or after work.
in the above example, even if jimbob never 'put out' in the 'public' eye, most people that disagree with his POV and behavior will not hang out with him.
if i don't like hanging out with smokers, even if they don't do it around me, because they STILL smell like cigarettes am i being an asshole? maybe.
should i be FORCED to allow them access to my private property, my home, kids etc just because they don't smoke near me or while they are on the premises?
why is an employer any different?
if i am an employer, and the company provides healthcare, then why should i be forced to pay extra for the group policy because of someone ELSE'S habit that they do on their 'own personal time'? And why would i not be within my rights to demand they stop that behavior or stop working? Why should i be forced to pay more for something that they do "on their own personal time"
like i said before, you want it both ways, and you can't be bothered to even attempt to see it from ANOTHER person's point of view.
freedom works BOTH ways, not just addison's way.
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted January 28, 2005 06:07 AM
Reading through this thread it seems clear that few have a grasp on what is really relevent here. Slug, of course has it right and Addison is way out in left field. I am an employer and I know what I can and can't do with respect to the law and hiring or firing. I've fired people because of things they have done on thier "personal time" because it shows what character they are. My employees represent ME to my industry and my customers, if I don't have the right as the business owner to determine who represents me then wtf kind of country is this? I follow employment law to the letter, I don't discriminate on race, religion or any of the other protected classes born of the EEOC, but the fact is that this is MY company, and quite frankly, if you don't like my company policies than for God's sake, go find another job, I'm not stopping you. I would never tell anyone what they can and can not do on their personal time, but if you want to work in my company and get the great benefits that come with it, then you follow the rules, what's so hard to understand about that? Addison believes that I HAVE to hire someone or not fire someone regardless of their personal habits, well who the fuck are you to tell me what I can do with MY company?
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted January 28, 2005 06:10 AM
One side note, In the late 80's and Early 90's the Building I worked in allowed smoking. Once this policy was changed, the cost of insurance was reduced by close to $200,000 a year. The cost of taking care of the building went down by over $50,000 a year for filter replacements and other things.
Smoking is very expensive. They even had special rooms for the COmputers so that the smokers would not gum up the equipment. Also note in cars where the Headliner falls down, that is usually caused by the Smoke ruining the Glue that holds the liner Up. So there is a LOT More to smoking that Bad Health!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted January 28, 2005 06:12 AM
And as to the guy who fired the people for smoking, while I would not do that, I most certainly am not about to tell him how to run his business. If he feels his company will gain by going this route, then that's HIS choice, and he and only he will realize the gains or losses from his decision.
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billbisby
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted January 28, 2005 08:18 AM
 Edited By: billbisby on 28 Jan 2005 18:32
I am 56 and on oxygen.. If you're smoking you are a fucking dumbass..
"You smoke, you choke, you croak!"
and yes, I was a fucking dumbass!!!!!!!!
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addisonzx12
Expert Class
Posts: 213
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posted January 28, 2005 08:24 AM
Edited By: addisonzx12 on 28 Jan 2005 08:25
I don't know why I am being seemingly misunderstood!? I am NOT saying anybody HAS to be HIRED!! I am saying AFTER you are HIRED!! Some asshole owner, can't tell me I can't ride a motorcycle on my OWN TIME, off his property!! The same principle applies for smoking, drinking, fucking, or anything else that is legal under the law!! That' s why we have laws so assholes cannot tell you what to do! If you don't understand, I do not know how to explain it any better.
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted January 28, 2005 08:31 AM
quote:
I don't know why I am being seemingly misunderstood!? I am NOT saying anybody HAS to be HIRED!! I am saying AFTER you are HIRED!! Some asshole owner, can't tell me I can't ride a motorcycle on my OWN TIME, off his property!! The same principle applies for smoking, drinking, fucking, or anything else that is legal under the law!! That' s why we have laws so assholes cannot tell you what to do! If you don't understand, I do not know how to explain it any better.
In the same resect addison, we don't know why you misunderstand what we are saying. No one is telling you that you can't ride a motorcycle on your own time or do anything else on your own time. What we are saying is that as business owners we HAVE the right to create our own company policies that our emplyees must abide by to work there, as long as they do not infringe on protected classes. If you are not willing to work under those rules, than you will have to work somewhere else. What is so hard to comprehend here? This smoker guy gave his employees plenty of warning and time to solve their own issues, ie: either quit smoking or quit the company. The ones who didn't quit smoking or the company got canned. You are 100% missing the point.
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zxfingyz
Expert Class
Posts: 424
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posted January 28, 2005 08:58 AM
Hey Addison, not for nothing but an employer CAN tell you what to do on or off the clock. Period. You are an extension of the company all time.
Same thing with atheletes. You are still a Viking when you are driving down the street and bump a cop too. And when Pepsi decides they ain't giving you 10 million to hold a pepsi can for 5 minutes that is their perogative and good sound business decision too. Because Randy is stupid. They don't stupid people repping their products, just drinking them.
You may not be able to be fired for smoking but if the company disapproves you damn sure better have your mind right and act accordingly. Maybe if you have a job that sucks you can say "fuck you I do what I want." But if you make 500k a year and your driving a company car and the company pays for your club membership and they want you to use a Tiger Woods Driver from Nike? You better club up and shut up and swing away brotha.
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted January 28, 2005 09:03 AM
Or just start your own damn company and do as you please and let everyone else do whatever they want too. Maybe then you won't play the vicitm so much.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted January 28, 2005 09:05 AM
I remember a place that did not allow people to own Motorcycles or even drive them in the COmmunity. I WOuld not live there. We have someone that is being told to remove his trailer at his house. Now we know for sure that he is not from West Virginia because the "Trailer" would have been his house 
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Ra12r
Zone Head
Posts: 919
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posted January 28, 2005 11:00 AM
Vincent that was funny, but the guy with the trailer is from the "Ozarks" and was advised to put a stove and a couch in the trailer!........LOL
Slug, let me say this to you. There is a great perspective difference between employees and Employers on this topic. This will never change!
However, I still hold that created laws LOBBIED by the insurance industry and enforced by the "police power of the government" have created this healthcare liability issue. If you want to find the root of the problem then chase the money trail. The insurance companies have created a sandwich monopoly in this country. They make TRILLIONS of dollars from the healthy and the sick. The mandatory insurance laws are wrong. They show up in the form of workers comp or healthcare for the Employer and high premiums or mandatory coverage for the employees! The insurance companies make their money by government enforcement of a private corporations product. This is a great racket!!!
I still say that the Employers and Employees are the victims. Now the folks holding the money has the folks paying the money fighting each other. The insurance companies are laughing. Where do you think the tobacco companies have invested their money......?!?! "Health Insurance Companies"........The tobbacco companies are laughing too!!!
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted January 28, 2005 11:48 AM
I started a good one eh.
I still stand by what I believe. We have employment laws because of people like this. he is firing people for smoking at home on their own time. Not for what they do for his company! first smoking, he is already working on fat people, what is next??? what if Ford Motor Corp. decided tomorrow to Fire every employee that drove a Chevy, or non Ford auto. It is the same thing...
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted January 28, 2005 11:51 AM
Oh and this is not about what is good for you or not, almost everyone know smoking is bad for you or can be bad for you. do you know how many people say I am crazy for dragracing @ 150mph. just about everyone except for most of you guys and my racer buddies.....
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addisonzx12
Expert Class
Posts: 213
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posted January 28, 2005 12:09 PM
MM, apparently a lot of people think when you work for somebody they (the employer) owns you! Sounds like slavery to me, not employment!
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted January 28, 2005 12:35 PM
ra12r, tho you make some valid points regarding insurance companies, consider this (and this goes for every time anyone complains about an evil moneygrubbing corporation):
do u own any stock? mutual funds? any investments of any kind? then there's a damn good chance that u are part of the problem. these days saving for retirement is all about mutual funds, and everyone wants to make as much as possible from them. u choose the fund with the best record, both % return and consistency. so the fund managers choose the companies that have the best dividends and stock performance and are stable. u think they're gonna buy stocks frmo a generous, non-greedy company that keeps its costs reasonable but not at the cost of squeezing people, and keeps their prices as low as they can? no, cause they'd a) never make any profit or more likely b) go out of business in short order. the only time i think complaining abotu greed is at all valid, is if it's a privately owned company, or if u own NO investments and are bitching at every investor in the country. keep in mind, even if u dont have any investments urself but are on a company pension plan, that plan is gonna be based on investments like mutual funds etc. so basically, no-one is free of guilt on this one.
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted January 28, 2005 01:56 PM
Speaking of "Insurance" and controls, now if you own a house and get ready to sell it no one will buy it if you have had 2 claims. Not only do they qualify the Owner, but they Qualify the Property and its history. Sort of like telling someone that the Used car they bought had 2 accident claims so you cannot get insurance when you buy it because of the past!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted January 28, 2005 03:24 PM
nowhere am i at ALL advocating the government have say in who gets hired & fired, and what you do in your personal time. EVER. ONCE.
the ONLY thing that i am saying is that a PRIVATE individual has EVERY right to require their employees to adhere to a standard, both at work and at home. if THEY SO CHOOSE.
you are attempting to impose YOUR will on someone else.
and whomever made the slavery comment, get real. if that is the best argument that you can come up with, please stop while you're not TOO far behind the grading curve...
the company doesn't own you. You own yourself. get real, NOBODY put a gun to hyour head and forced you to work for that particular company.
This is a free market, and we live in an at-will employment society.
that means in simple terms that you can walk out of your current workplace and seek employment elsewhere. AND your employer has the right and priveledge to tell you to take that hike. As long as they do not fire you based on your physical atributes or your race, colour etc.
let me break it down in to even more simple terms. It ain't slavery if you can quit.
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Just Joy
Needs a job
Posts: 3976
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posted January 28, 2005 05:48 PM
Edited By: Just Joy on 28 Jan 2005 17:52
K....I have kept quiet, read all the posts, and see many many good points in all of them (well almost all).....but, now I can't keep quiet any longer, its killing me.....(for those who know me well, I'm sure your impressed I have kept quiet this long).....here it goes...
I have been a smoker for 29 years (ya, ya, I'm old, get over it, I did)....but, I have recently stoped (I don't say quit just yet), it's been a year and a half since my last puff...(hold your applause, there's more).....do I miss it? Just about every day, especially in stressfull situations, it was my calmer, my crutch, I would walk away, have a smoke, calm down, go back and handle the situation, now, I pretty much just loose it.....will I go back, No!!!...what I don't miss is the expense, the dependancy, the smell, the social out cast, (including, by the way,smoking outside at my own house because my husband quit years earlier) and the health issues, although, I smoked for so long, (did I mention my parents were chain smokers all through my childhood), that if any damage was done, its done already....and having just lost two people I loved dearly to cancer, I know all two well the pain and suffering......
But......do I agree with this employer?? I would love to say yes....but, I can't.....you see....as a smoker, yes I took more breaks than a non-smoker, yes, I smelled up the office......but, I never took any time off for sickness....I take more sick leaves now (when a long term smoker quits, their body goes into rejection, and you imunity goes way down.....and can be down for up to two years, hence every bug that goes around I seem to catch it, as before, I was NEVER sick)....
Also, as a person with no kids, I can not tell you how many times I have had to cover others work, because their kid was sick so they had to stay at home (first take them to the doctor for a simple virus, like an ear infection or simple cold, yet another strain on health care) or take their kids to a dentist or eye doctor, or alergy specialist, or behavior specialist appiontment (which by the way all covered under benifits) or say , their kid were in a consert, so they went (not taking vacation time by the way, just a "family day" but called in sick), or for sports, like a hockey tournament that starts Friday during the day....I can go on....
Or, and I'm sure you all know someone like this, they had a great weekend planed, (whether it be a bike trip, or another sport) and got home late Sunday, so decided to call in sick on Monday.....or Friday to get a jump on traffic....
Anyway, I will get back to the point, do I agree with this employer, No.....why, simply because I think that an employer should be able too fire someone based on their performance (as an individual)....not on their actions and group them all into one label .....if there was a smoker that took way more time than usual for a break, , or if they were absent from work (for what ever reason they give) or if they refused to say, leave the property to smoke (if that was a manditory rule in the work place), then yes fire his or her ass, but if not, then I have difficulty with the reason of "just because they are a smoker".....and to say that in the future they will be sick enough to cause a burdon on the benifits, well, I would love to have one of those crystal balls, because even though I know first hand what smoking can do to a persons health, (and I do not condone it) I also know of several elderly (80 to 90 year olds) that have both smoked and drank almost all their lives......and I can honestly say, I can only hope that I am that healthy at that age....
I guess the reason I'm having difficulty agreeing with this employer (and trust me I want too, I have become one of those "ex-smoker" which is worse than a non-smoker) it that I'm afraid of where this will lead....will it lead to over weight people? Will it lead to elderly people? Will it lead to people with kids? Will it lead to "dangerous" sports? All of these examples have a HUGE impact on health care and any other benifits, especially the kids and elderly......
Just my 2 cents......take it or leave it
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billbisby
Novice Class
Posts: 96
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posted January 28, 2005 06:34 PM
At a previous job I remember seeing a statement saying you can be fired at any time for any reason as part of the required readiing when I hired on..
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VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
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posted January 28, 2005 07:31 PM
Just Joy I enjoyed your post. When I stop eating and lose weight, "THEN" I will have the gall to talk trash to anyone that cannot stop smoking. The only thing I cannot figure out is if Smoking was against the law, would that make it easier or harder to stop. Before I was 21, I went into all of the Nite Clubs and Bars I could find and drank. Once I turned 21, I have not been in one since! (No fun now that it is legal) Good Luck to you on the hardest Journey you will ever take!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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