VincentHill
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posted January 19, 2005 02:27 PM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 19 Jan 2005 14:43
quote:
Vince,
I think there's an easier way. I don't have one handy but I think there's a chart in the book that shows enrichment vs temp. In any case it's not enough to worry about, as I said.
Doug
If I did not believe you, I would have stopped some of my test and rested my hat on the temp Sensor (Until it failed on the dyno). I am just leaving no stone unturned. It could be simple, or it could be a combination of simple or complex things. Since no one has the set up I am using, there is no one to go to for a "Quick" Answer. Like when you or Muzzy make something and you have a problem with it, you can get ideas from others, but you must resolve it yourself.
The jetTronic Fuel Injection used in Early Porsches and BMW's have a chart that shows how the Temp has an effect on the fuel amount. It is moslty controlled by a warm up regulator. I do not have a warm up regulator but I do have the chart 
Like the problems I had with the Pinched Fuel line that made itself appear like a host of other things. As people gave me ideas I ruled them out and kept working on it, I eventually found the problem and now I know to keep an eye on the lines! You know I appreciate the information and thoughts you and everyone else is giving me. 20 Minds can think up a lot more stuff than one old Mind 
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
  
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aliveagain
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posted January 20, 2005 06:07 PM
By pinched fuel lines,I'm assuming you're talking about the return hose?I happened to be reading how to remove the fuel pump when I saw it on page 2-43 3/4 the way down about fuel pressure can go much higher due to sharp bend,kinking or clogging.I thought I might of found something until I read your last post.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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VincentHill
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posted January 21, 2005 08:10 AM
quote:
By pinched fuel lines,I'm assuming you're talking about the return hose?I happened to be reading how to remove the fuel pump when I saw it on page 2-43 3/4 the way down about fuel pressure can go much higher due to sharp bend,kinking or clogging.I thought I might of found something until I read your last post.
You have no idea of how hard that was to locate. It was on the outlet line BTW. I have a cut off Gas Tank that I raise and lower a lot. By doing this, it get careless in watching everything. That was the case there.
On the new fuel system I am using now for the NOS, I have removed the Return valve and taken out the spring and plunger, then drilled out the holes on the side and replaced the plug on top. It works very well that way with the Unit I made to keep the fuel pressure up.
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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matt sterbator
Pro
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posted January 21, 2005 04:10 PM
Vince, what it you used a progressive controller ?
1. It'll soften the hit so that the tire isn't blown away (I think I remember you saying it was burning the tire off even at real high speed).
2. It would effectively keep the bottle from blowing it's load on the initial hit, and save some of that pressure for where you really need it later in the run. Basically keeping the bottle pressure more consistent throughout the pass.
Just thinkin out loud 
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VincentHill
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posted January 21, 2005 04:47 PM
Matt, Take a look at these pictures. Note the first Picture under the left Handle Bar!! The problem is, I was using a NX Pure Flow 250 HP Nitrous Solenoid and later found out that it took over 30 AMPS to operate at WOT and with the controller set at 20% for 6 seconds and to restart every time I shift or let off, it did not work at all. I sent it to the Guru at Schnitz and then sent it back and nothing was wrong with it.
http://www.landracing.net/cgi-bin/pro/emAlbum.cgi?c=show_image;p=Maxton/2004/October%2030,%2004;i=44
http://www.landracing.net/cgi-bin/pro/emAlbum.cgi?c=show_image;p=Maxton/2004/October%2030,%2004;i=43
The pictures are copy writed and cannot be posted directly (So save your time)
So as you can see, I am in total agreement with you becasue that is exactly what the plan was
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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rac4it
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Bergie
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posted January 21, 2005 08:52 PM
Is this what you were trying to do?
If you're using IE, goto >VIEW >SOURCE to see the HTML sourcecode, and you can pull the path to the image file from there. See you're never too old to learn!
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aliveagain
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posted January 22, 2005 06:04 AM
Vin,I really like the tank! How many gal. does it hold and can you still use the tank cover?
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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VincentHill
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posted January 22, 2005 09:06 AM
Bergie, I am still an Old Dog but I found out that while learning one trick, it is hard to learn others Thanks and neat deal!
The Gas Tank holds 3 gallons and has the Fuel Gauge in it also. Yes you can use the Tank Cover because on Bear's Bikes, he had all of this turbo pressure vlalves and plumming under there.
I got rid of the top part of the tank to have more room for "ME"!!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Ra12r
Zone Head
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posted January 22, 2005 08:10 PM
Vince did you buy Robert's old bike..........?!.
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All must bow to the "Ra Supremecy"...
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tslewisz
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posted January 23, 2005 07:59 AM
Vince, you're discovering on your own what's proposed in the following, but since you're using a pulse controller I want to ensure you read it:
http://www.diy-nitrous.fsnet.co.uk/nitrous-solenoid.htm
Read the section entitiled "Why jet it at the solenoids outlet instead of the "Foggers" ???"
It even mentions the lean spike you spoke of.
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rac4it
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Bergie
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posted January 23, 2005 10:05 AM
http://www.diy-nitrous.fsnet.co.uk/nitrous-solenoid.htm
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VincentHill
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posted January 23, 2005 10:10 AM
Edited By: VincentHill on 23 Jan 2005 12:46
quote:
Vince, you're discovering on your own what's proposed in the following, but since you're using a pulse controller I want to ensure you read it:
http://www.diy-nitrous.fsnet.co.uk/nitrous-solenoid.htm
Read the section entitiled "Why jet it at the solenoids outlet instead of the "Foggers" ???"
It even mentions the lean spike you spoke of.
This is the third (3rd) time this type of system has been mentioned to me. The first time the person mentioned it because of the "Ease" in changing the Jets! (1 in a fairly easy place to get to vs 4 in a very difficult place to get to.) 2nd was another person that posted on this thread but another place and still in the UK. Now you!. The neat thing was the Page about "Flow" that is 100% of what I am looking for because the fuel matches exactly what I have 3.95 ounces at 10 seconds is 15.80 ounces at 40 seconds and they showed 16 ounces. Remember, In 10 seconds, you can be off by a tenth or so trying to turn off the system.
Looking at this now, I am seriously thinking (Not of using his system because of the limited HP, but putting a jet in line before the Solenoid on both sides. I also liked the thinking about the problems in pulsing the Solenoids and the Problems there to boot.
"NOW I have to make another fitting to handle Jetting!" Drilling out an AN Fitting to accept the NX redrilled Jet in line! This is not that hard compared to all I have done so far . I am glad I am dealing with this now because a system with one large jet "MUST" Have equal length tubing to deliver the fuel and NOS at the same time. Otherwise the shorter lines will spray first and make the cylinders now all come on line at the exact same time. (Just the way the Fuel injection of a Diesel engine injectors all have equal length lines from the fuel pump to the injectors to keep the timing all the same!
RA12, WHo is Robert?? Why would I buy his bike? (Or is this a joke about Supernut??) Everyone know that I have made everything I use and that is even part of the problem to boot!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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tslewisz
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posted January 23, 2005 08:19 PM
Edited By: tslewisz on 23 Jan 2005 20:25
Gets you thinkin', huh. What I've been thinking about, too, is that only one cylinder "breathes in" at a time. Atomize the fuel with the N2O with one "nozzle-like arrangement" in our airbox. Sure simplifies things. Burgerman (the author of the site to which I've been referring you) HIGHLY recommends that approach on cars rather than shooting the cylinders individually. Our big, strong, airbox very much resembles a car's V6or8 intake manifold, especially a TBI, no?
BTW, in your post you said something about jetting before the solenoid...do it after the solenoid - immediately after the solenoid.
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VincentHill
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posted January 24, 2005 04:38 AM
BTW, in your post you said something about jetting before the solenoid...do it after the solenoid - immediately after the solenoid.
Correctamundo! Between the Solenoid and Showerhead
I still think that spraying at the inlet of each cylinder is better than trying to find the perfect spot to spray in the airbox becasue where ever you put it, some cylinders are going to get more than others when you start adding fuel into the mix?
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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tslewisz
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posted January 24, 2005 07:16 AM
It's tempting to think that way. However, if the nitrous and fuel atomize properly, and only one cylinder at a time breathes, I'm inclined to think it will work. Besides, how do we know your distribution blocks are dividing things evenly between cylinders? Could we verify with EGT that cylinders are getting equal boosts? I'd love to try it but I have absolutely no reason to do so. That's never stopped me before, tho!
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VincentHill
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posted January 24, 2005 07:56 AM
I do have an EGT in #4 Cylinder and could install plugs to check the others? This is why I spoke about equal length lines.
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Farmer Rog
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posted January 24, 2005 07:58 AM
quote:
I still think that spraying at the inlet of each cylinder is better than trying to find the perfect spot to spray in the airbox becasue where ever you put it, some cylinders are going to get more than others when you start adding fuel into the mix?
Has anyone ever measured EGT in each head-pipe when fogging the airbox? I've wondered how evenly distributed a dry-shot can be.
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ZX-12R, stock motor, Muzzy/PC3 63in, 60-shot dry, 750#, 9.001
ZX-14, stock motor, Brock smeg/PC3, 63.5in, ~750#, 9.31 NA, 8.95 40-shot dry.
NorthwestDragbike.com
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tslewisz
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posted January 24, 2005 08:44 AM
You're not alone in your wondering, Rog. Brock Davidson admits to wondering the same thing in a post on his forum. Muzzy's did their dry kit the way they did for presumably reasons other than market differentiation (?).
I think the way we generally do it on 12's, though, is fine and correct - spraying forward into the airstream. Besides, only one cylinder breathes at a time!
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VincentHill
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posted January 24, 2005 11:18 AM
Since one site is up where I have some pictures, this is close to what the airbox looks like inside
As you can se, it is a Snake Pit inside there.
And for the person that asked if this was someone elses bike, Here is where I was making this seat
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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dougmeyer
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posted January 27, 2005 11:14 AM
I was just reading through this stuff (killing time- I was on hold) and I saw something a little scary. There's a reference to mixing A/F in the air box up stream of the port inlets. Surely everyone here is aware of the explosive potential of a one cubic foot or so ( 2360 cc.) aluminum chamber filled with gasoline and oxidizer and ignited? You wanna be lying on top of that when you hole a piston and set it off?
Doug
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NINJA12
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posted January 27, 2005 12:10 PM
"fogging the box" wet has been a big no no for many years.
fogging dry is not a problem because nitrous by itself is not flamable.
Wet fog box = bomb waiting on a backfire. I was hoping i was misreading this. VH you are on the right track keep the snake
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VincentHill
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posted January 27, 2005 01:36 PM
Edited By: VincentHill on 27 Jan 2005 13:39
DM, possibly no worse than riding a top fuel Harley! (I have seen a cylinder break and all of the rings and things fly out and part of the cylinder and head come straight up and hit the frame tube.
Anyone have any thoughts about putting the "Jets" for NOS and fuel in the Showerhead?
The reason I bring this up was reading the article about 1 jet and the pulsing of the solenoids just making and ebb and flow in the fuel line but not metering it correctly. Anyone think it would work any better with the "Ebb and Flow" only happening in the Showerhead?
DM, In my research so far about the Inlet air temp sensor. I have found that the max it can adjust is about 4%. Also the ECU had parameters which it cannot go beyond and if it reads more than this, it ignores the Sensor for a pre-set setting. SO as usual and like you said, that is not the answer to my problem.
From all that I can find and understand so far, I believe the over rich condition was caused by a lean out of the NOS. I believe the lean out of the NOS was caused by using the NX Pro-Flow 250 HP NOS Solenoid. The reason I believe this was the problem is the High current draw (Up to 34 amps) at WOT. Since I only have a 20 AMP Battery, my thinking is, that at the Hit of the button, the Solenoid was wide open and took all of the current causing low fuel from the Fuel solenoid. Then as the amprage dropped off, the NOS Solenoid closed a lot but the fuel was wide open (After the timing event of the Controller) causing the over- rich condition.
To Cure this, I am using a very low amprage NOS Cheater 250 HP solenoid that takes at MAX WOT 12 amps (A long way from 34 amps) I still have a lot of testing to do, but the direction I am going is a lot more narrow a road to travel!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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dougmeyer
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posted January 27, 2005 01:59 PM
Sounds plausable except why would not the solenoids act in concert to the lower current? Explain to me why one would stay open and the other not........
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VincentHill
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posted January 27, 2005 02:56 PM
quote:
Sounds plausable except why would not the solenoids act in concert to the lower current? Explain to me why one would stay open and the other not........
Because one (The Fuel) only needs about 3 amps to be Wide Open and the other needs 34 amps to be Wide open. When the amperage gets down to 20 usable amps or less (The total amperage the Battery can flow) that is pleanty for the fuel Solenoid that only needs 3 amps but almost 40% less than what the NOS Solenoid needs. So the NOS would be about 50 to 60% open while the Fuel is 100% open.
I know when my battery is low on the car or van, I may not have enough to start the car, but I have plenty to run the lights and radio. The difference is, the Starter needs all the Amps where the Solenoid can open at 10 Amps and the more it gets the more it opens. It is not an All or nothing deal like a starter.
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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aliveagain
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posted January 27, 2005 07:15 PM
How can a solenoid need 34 amps?The starter only has a 30 amp fuse,just how big is the solenoid?
____________
I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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