VincentHill
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posted January 13, 2005 02:08 PM
Alive, that is not the First time I have seen this question so I know it is a valid one. Except for the last test where it made the most HP, I did "NOT" Have a filter for NOS. I have a brand new one that I have used for 10 Dyno Runs and about 10 runs at Maxton.
Bergie, I "HOPE" you are correct. I have figured out a test for this weekend, Put the NOS Bottle on a scale and with a stop watch time how long it takes to remove a certain amount of weight. (The reason I do not know the amount is I want to spray for about 20 to 30 seconds). The first test will be with everything the exact way it is now.
Then with everything out and the lines straight I will spray it for the same amount of time again and see what the weight difference is!
If I see a real difference and can even hear the spray slow, then I plan to replumb the lines so that there are very mild bends. (This will require me to cut the lines and put new AN Fittings on them!)
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
  
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aliveagain
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posted January 13, 2005 03:52 PM
I still wonder if your syphon tube isn't positioned where its close to sucking gas(full tank being 60% liquid)or is your bottle in a vertical position.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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VincentHill
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posted January 13, 2005 06:56 PM
Good Question again and thinking! When it was on the Dyno, we were using a 10 pound bottle that was sitting vertically. On the bike, the bottle sits with the valve forward and the outlet point 90 degrees downward with the bottle mounted at about a 30 degree rear down position. Same results no differences. Now you can see why I needed to know how much NOS shoule be flowing for a given Jet size. This way I can eliminate the NOS Side. I was at a best friends Mother's Funeral today so I will be checking into the NOS Catalogue for this information tomorrow.
Please keep thinking. 20 minds are better than my 1/2 
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aliveagain
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posted January 13, 2005 07:45 PM
Trying to think outside the normal Vin.How is the fuel pressure regulated and could that be going south?Is your hose(fuel) the right size for the pump/regulator?How accurate is your pressure gage so you know it's really 6psi?most gages are only accurate within the middle of the spectrum.If you think it's a voltage problem,can you measure at the solenoid what the voltage is?When was the last tme you checked the connector from the alternator that likes to fry?Sorry about your best friends mom.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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VincentHill
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posted January 14, 2005 05:09 AM
Thanks Guy, She was a neat lady where she would even allow John to take her for a ride with him doing a burn out!
Outside the NOS, the Fuel Pressure Gauge is now junk (After the NOS Back pressured it and spun it to max). Before the fact, I had about 6.5 PSI on the Pump I was using and with the (NOW) Starting at 4 psi showed about 11. I am using a 1 to 15 PSI Gauge so the pressure I need would be in the middle. I bought a new gauge to replace it
Hose, I was using 5/16 inch and on the new system 5/16 inlet and 3/8 outlet on the bypass.
In April, 2004, Kawasaki extended my warranty and gave me a new Stator. All of 200 miles were put on the bike before testing. Plus, it was September when I put the engine back in and reconnected the plugs.
So the new gauge this weekend and NOS Testing so far. Thanks!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Farmer Rog
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posted January 14, 2005 11:51 AM
quote:
Is it possible that the bottle pressure is dropping enough so that the nitrous flow slows down over the course of the run ?
I wonder about this, especially on small bottles. As a bottle evacuates there is huge cooling effect that will be greatest in small bottles. I know you can watch pressure drop steadily on a full 1lb bottle as you spray. Hooking up a large bottle for testing might shed some light on whether or not this might be the culprit.
There will be some of this going on in all cases, but in a large bottle, small shot application it might be subtle, and on a large shot, small bottle, it may be significant. Any thoughts???
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ZX-12R, stock motor, Muzzy/PC3 63in, 60-shot dry, 750#, 9.001
ZX-14, stock motor, Brock smeg/PC3, 63.5in, ~750#, 9.31 NA, 8.95 40-shot dry.
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VincentHill
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posted January 14, 2005 02:32 PM
I made some runs with the Heater on and some with it off, No difference. On the Dyno without the heater, the "Problem" was worse than the pressure drop so I do not know how much HP os lost in less pressure?
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aliveagain
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posted January 15, 2005 07:00 PM
Does it make a difference if you unplug the headlights?sparkpugs all the same reading and is solenoid wired with a sufficient enough wire?What else is on that circuit or is it a dedicated one?A little off topic but do you ever test the bottles?(every 5 yrs,pressure testing)What are the norms for storing them at home?Wot,any resistance thru it?By the way are you running a progressive controler?I think it was on NOS web site that said they do not recommend using for longer than 15 sec do to pressure drop.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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VincentHill
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posted January 15, 2005 08:21 PM
Alive, you have to be worse than me. Actually I have unplugged my headlight to remove that voltage drain. I use #10's when I race and #9's for testing. Good question about what else is on the circuit? I used the large red (Or is it white?) wire at the fuse box. I will look tomorrow, The Oldest Bottle is 2 years Old and and the 1 CO2 Bottle I put a High Flow Valve in September. I do have a Controller but hooked up or bypassed, the same thing. My Heater blanket is wired directly to the battery with an in line fuse. Monday evening I will know more!
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aliveagain
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posted January 16, 2005 02:45 AM
I meant with the spark plugs,are they the same color across to rule out ignition problems.With the controller and the way it was progressively getting richer,I didn't know if there could be a polarity problem.Sorry VH about all the questions,I don't know much about bike mechanics but just trying to help and learn in the process.
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I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me.
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VincentHill
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posted January 16, 2005 07:47 AM
Please never apologize for helping. Even questions that would not seem to help have. I do not have plastic lines, but it have me idea to test the flow 2 different ways.
The Plugs all look the "Basic" same. Using a loop and light to look at the Bottom of the plug where the white part touches the metal, they are fairly clean. a little color on 1 side and not the other. (Intake side vs. exhaust side.) I have spoked to the person at Schnitz and even sent the Controller back to them for testing. It is OK Also and I have heard about the "Polarity problem" and have actually switched the wires to see if there was a difference. I have male female plugs so the current flow is always the same way.
Also, I install the Stick coils at Random just to make sure there is no bad match I am repeating.
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BROOKLYNNYZX12
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posted January 16, 2005 09:40 AM
FWIW Vince,from my experiences with car nitrous have you checked something simple like a restriction at the nitrous solenoid or debris in the bottle,I have experienced both so maybe that's worth a look,plus it wont cost a dime.Scott Shafiroff opened up a bottle for a buddy of mine and crap came out it,it was clogging up the nitrous solenoid.
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VincentHill
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posted January 16, 2005 02:36 PM
quote:
FWIW Vince,from my experiences with car nitrous have you checked something simple like a restriction at the nitrous solenoid or debris in the bottle,I have experienced both so maybe that's worth a look,plus it wont cost a dime.Scott Shafiroff opened up a bottle for a buddy of mine and crap came out it,it was clogging up the nitrous solenoid.
I will blow everything out before I test it tomorrow. I was using a lot of different bottles and one of the Bottles that TB Loaned me went on a Bike Dan's son road to a record. Also that liquid Teflon could have clogged a Jet so I will be looking at that also. Thanks!!
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TurboBlew
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posted January 16, 2005 06:39 PM
Hey Vince.. I tried flow testing some nitrous today and I feel all light headed....lol. Is this normal?
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zrxdean
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posted January 16, 2005 11:12 PM
quote:
quote:
Is it possible that the bottle pressure is dropping enough so that the nitrous flow slows down over the course of the run ?
I wonder about this, especially on small bottles. As a bottle evacuates there is huge cooling effect that will be greatest in small bottles. I know you can watch pressure drop steadily on a full 1lb bottle as you spray. Hooking up a large bottle for testing might shed some light on whether or not this might be the culprit.
There will be some of this going on in all cases, but in a large bottle, small shot application it might be subtle, and on a large shot, small bottle, it may be significant. Any thoughts???
Definitely true. Promods typically run two 5lb bottles, not because they use all of it, but because they want to avoid losing pressure and nosing over on the big end. For a top end run, I would think you'd want twice as much liquid as you'll actually use. I don't think your heater can keep up with the temp drop. Strap it on your back Vincent.
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VincentHill
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posted January 17, 2005 08:41 AM
Dean, I still like that picture of JB!! I am using about 1 pound per run and the Bottle holds 3. All of this would make sense if not for the fact that it happens on the Dyno with a 10 pound bottle.
The Blamket does not "Stop" the pressure lossm but it sure does reduce it. Because I can pre-heat the bottle I can start out with 1000 to 1050 and end up at 850. I know that it is very touchy where I start because once over 1100 I am back to gas again. So I try to leave the start at between 950 raising. If I see 1050, I turn it off.
Now that I have the fuel the way I want it, (And I thought it was Cold yesterday) I had planned to do the NOS today. I woke up with 17 degrees outside and now it is 22 degrees with a Max of 30. I will wait until Thursday when the President "Takes a Hike down Pennsylvania Ave" and it should be 40 to 50 degrees to do the test!
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VincentHill
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posted January 17, 2005 03:14 PM
A New idea just arrived. Someone stated that "Maybe "  I am cooling the air box so much that I am richening the mixture through the ECU. I think I may relocate the Temp Sensor and see if this helps also!
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Farmer Rog
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posted January 18, 2005 11:43 AM
quote:
I made some runs with the Heater on and some with it off, No difference. On the Dyno without the heater, the "Problem" was worse than the pressure drop so I do not know how much HP os lost in less pressure?
The heater isn't going to keep up with the fast pressure drop. Try a large bottle (20#) under the same conditions, and see if there is an interaction of bottle size and loss of pressure/flow.
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ZX-12R, stock motor, Muzzy/PC3 63in, 60-shot dry, 750#, 9.001
ZX-14, stock motor, Brock smeg/PC3, 63.5in, ~750#, 9.31 NA, 8.95 40-shot dry.
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VincentHill
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posted January 18, 2005 02:26 PM
Farmer, When I tried the 10# Bottle and had this problem the thing I remembered that was also tried was we disconnected the fuel pump and it "STILL" ran rich. With this and the Inlet Air temp in the Air Box that is receiving the entire 150 shot at only 7,000 rpms I am sure that it got Frosty in there.
I am thinking that the next best place is in fromnt of the Air Filter where the hose for the Kleen Air System was.
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dougmeyer
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posted January 18, 2005 03:55 PM
Vince-
Don't worry about the temp sensor. It doesn't update fast enough or enrich enough to be a factor. Remember an N2O system is pretty crude as far as A/F goes.
The most important factor maintaining bottle temp and thus pressure, because the fuel flow IS constant.
Doug
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Farmer Rog
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posted January 18, 2005 04:15 PM
 Edited By: Farmer Rog on 18 Jan 2005 16:21
I doubt your ECU is adding so much fuel that it's going that rich.
You could do a "bench" test (but I would do it just as you have it hooked up in the bike) with time sprayed vs. weight. But to be complete, you might need to do several "runs". You know the time frame for the bike going rich. Bracket that with your bench test. Weigh bottle, start with same weight and temp/pressure. Spray a few seconds then weigh. Start over with full. Spray 1 more second and weigh. Start over. Do that until you are at the amount of time of the dyno pull where it went to 10:1 or whatever. Then plot them on a graph. You then have volume of nitrous used vs. spray time function. Ideally, it would be linnear, but if it's not, you may have some of the answer.
Hey, one more thing. Don't most systems recommend a "4-spread" with fuel being LARGER than the nitrous jet? Or a "2-spread" with a high-flow fuel pump?
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ZX-12R, stock motor, Muzzy/PC3 63in, 60-shot dry, 750#, 9.001
ZX-14, stock motor, Brock smeg/PC3, 63.5in, ~750#, 9.31 NA, 8.95 40-shot dry.
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VincentHill
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posted January 18, 2005 04:33 PM
Thanks DOug and Farmer. I think I will move the sensor anyway and as soon as it is "WARMER" I plan to put the bottle on a scale and spray for 10 seconds. I am told that 100HP used .8 pounds in 10 seconds so 150 HP should use about 1.2 Pounds. I am going to do this (like you say) as it is in the Bike.
I have 4 full Bottles so I plan to do this twice in the Bike and twice with the Nozzles hanging on straight lines (They are Braided Cable NX Lines) All 4 bottles have 3 pounds of NOS and I plan to start at about 1,000 PSI (Or if it is colder about 850 to 900 (But all the same). Each Test with a new full Bottle at the exact same starting PSI. Then over the same time period flow all 4 Fuel Jets in separate containers and measure total flow 4 times (2 as near as I can make it look like in the bike and 2 with the lines straight. I then think I can work out the A/F from there to see what I have.
One thing I did not post was several runs were made with the Fuel pump disconnected. I know that the NOS Sucks some fuel out of the Nozzles but not as much as if it had the Pump running.
This is why we test and need to continue in the "Off" season so that by race time, it is all worked out.
DM, I know that the Reaction is not instant, but if the Tenp Sensor was frosted at the Hit of the Button, you do not think in 10 to 15 seconds that the fuel could not seriously richen?
You have just given me another Idea for a test on the Dyno. Get a Base line and then on the next run, SPray the Temp sensor with NOS to super freeze it and see what the A/F Chart reads like?? That will tell me not only how much it can richen but over what period of time. Thanks DM
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Farmer Rog
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posted January 19, 2005 07:37 AM
I think you still need to see if N20 delivery is falling off over time. You'll need a couple of data points (eg, how much LESS is it flowing the 2nd 5 seconds vs. the first 5sec?).
So let me get this straight. With the fuel pump off, you still go rich? Are you sure your AF sensor is giving you good data?
Regarding the temp sensor, I have measured with very small dry shots (25hp) that without changes in the PC, AF jumps about 1 full point. This tells me that the cold airbox doesn't add that much. These tests were done at 65F ambient, so a warmer day might potentially add more "extra" fuel.
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ZX-12R, stock motor, Muzzy/PC3 63in, 60-shot dry, 750#, 9.001
ZX-14, stock motor, Brock smeg/PC3, 63.5in, ~750#, 9.31 NA, 8.95 40-shot dry.
NorthwestDragbike.com
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VincentHill
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posted January 19, 2005 08:55 AM
Thanks Farmer, You do have it Correct. The flow of the NOS does Suck a lot of fuel out but it should not be as much as with the pump on.
I even understand what you are talking about on the NOS flow over time. SOmehow I just cannot get it in my mind that using a 10 pound bottle of NOS with a Heater on it, Doing a Roll on the Dyno in just 1 gear with the Fuel pump off, that the engine should first spike to 17 to 1 lean then take a 45 degree angle downward to richer than 10 to 1 in less than 10 seconds and the Bottle pressure has not even dropped 50 PSI would make it go "THAT" Rich.
I have got a lot of testing to do and between the severe bends in the Braided Cable lines and the Frost in the Air Box that I cannot find out "WHAT"!!! is causing this.
SO as soon as it warms up a little (Snowing horizontal right now) I am going to move the Air Temp sender (I also plan to test this on the Dyno by spraying NOS Over it during a run and see what the A/F does over what period of time) .
Then Put the Bottle on a scale and hit the button and see how much weight it removes in 10 seconds as I am running it, then out of the Air Box (With a new full Bottle) and If I see a difference, I will know what to do.
I also like the idea if timing the flow but I will need to get a better scale to watch this. I am having trouble hitting the off switches right at 15 and 20 seconds It takes me about .3 just to turn off a key and .15 to let go of a button!
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dougmeyer
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posted January 19, 2005 01:12 PM
Vince,
I think there's an easier way. I don't have one handy but I think there's a chart in the book that shows enrichment vs temp. In any case it's not enough to worry about, as I said.
Doug
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