VincentHill
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posted January 05, 2005 09:04 AM
 Edited By: VincentHill on 7 Jan 2005 09:33
MAX Amount of Fuel at WOT?
I am still working on my {Project) and have tested the stock fuel pump. I am getting ready to test the Muzzy Pump and my set up.
What I want to know is "How many gallons per hour (GPH) can a ZX12R making about 180 HP Use?"
I know that if it could only get "5" MPG that it would need 36 GPH. I know that the stock Pump (On my bike is putting out 39.375 GPH which is right at the 40 GPH it is supposed to do). The Muzzy Pump (If a Gallon of Gasoline is 6.25 pounds at 72 degrees "F") puts out about 56 GPH I am hoping that I will still not need "More Fuel flow" to make 350 HP on NOS. I have tested with a #32 Jet (I will never  need to use one that big) and hope that the #22 or #20 will put me in a safe place (Depending on the amount of fuel pressure I
use).
This part of my post was wrong (On my bike is putting out 39.375 GPH which is right at the 40 GPH it is supposed to do).
Stupid me, I was using 1/2 Gallon (64 OZ not 128 OZ for a Gallon) so it is putting out 19.68 GPH and this is under 14 PSI from the return side. Second, the 40 GPH I confused with the 40 PSI the pump is supposed to make (41.5 to be exact) With less money, we now buy the 1/2 gallons of OJ as opposed to the Gallons and this has had an effect on my Brain
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rac4it
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Bergie
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posted January 05, 2005 11:28 AM
Trying to understand your post correctly, when you're talking jetting to be specific, are you referring to a single #32 jet (as in dry systems) or four #32 jets as in a wet kit? HUGE difference.
I assume you're talking about running four #22's on a wet system, which should be about +90rwhp or so on a 12R.
If you are asking if the Muzzys pump will support that? The answer is yes.
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tslewisz
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posted January 05, 2005 01:42 PM
Scroll down for an article by Doug Mayer:
http://www.schnitzracing.com/technical_corner.htm
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VincentHill
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posted January 05, 2005 02:45 PM
quote:
Trying to understand your post correctly, when you're talking jetting to be specific, are you referring to a single #32 jet (as in dry systems) or four #32 jets as in a wet kit? HUGE difference.
I assume you're talking about running four #22's on a wet system, which should be about +90rwhp or so on a 12R.
If you are asking if the Muzzys pump will support that? The answer is yes.
The answer is 4 - 32 jets for the fuel which take about 8 ounces of fuel at 8 PSI in 10 seconds. I want to know that no matter what amount of fuel I need I will have enough.
The 22 Jets are for fuel using the 32's for NOS. Remember I was Waay rich and plan to control this bu the fuel pressure. Smaller Jets under higher pressure makes the fuel move faster to the Nozzle than larger jets and lower pressure. (Remember, I am working on some "Problems" I want to resolve and never see again. The way people are doing things right now does not suite me  )
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VincentHill
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posted January 05, 2005 02:57 PM
quote:
Scroll down for an article by Doug Mayer:
http://www.schnitzracing.com/technical_corner.htm
You may be new here, but you are not new to information! What really got me was the fact that the exact amount of power "180 was the figure" "14.5 gallons per hour"! the exact answer I was looking for.
Go to the head of the class and get your Gold Star. Thank you!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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tslewisz
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posted January 05, 2005 03:46 PM
You're welcome. I mostly lurk here. Participate more on 12r.org. Later.
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VincentHill
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posted January 05, 2005 04:33 PM
I thought I had seen that Name SOmewhere
I am glad you picked this time to say something!
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tslewisz
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posted January 05, 2005 06:30 PM
Edited By: tslewisz on 5 Jan 2005 18:34
You might find this chart helpful, too.
http://www.diy-nitrous.fsnet.co.uk/nitrous-fuel-jetting.htm
And since you don't like doing things "like everybody else", read the whole site. You might find yourself changing things around so you can jet at the solenoid...and who knows what else. Good luck, Vince. I know you'll get it worked out.
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VincentHill
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posted January 06, 2005 01:05 PM
quote:
You might find this chart helpful, too.
http://www.diy-nitrous.fsnet.co.uk/nitrous-fuel-jetting.htm
And since you don't like doing things "like everybody else", read the whole site. You might find yourself changing things around so you can jet at the solenoid...and who knows what else. Good luck, Vince. I know you'll get it worked out.
So you know about Jetting the Solenoid (Showerhead entrance vs. the Line exits)Huh! One jet vs 4 jets. (Wouldn't that make it too easy for me to change things?) I am already setting it up so I can change the fuel amount with a turn of a wrench.
Finally someboby that understood what I said (even it they do not understand "Why"!) What I am doing now I have not seen anyone do it this way exactly and of course if it works as I think it should, I will have even greater satisfaction when it runs fast (and reliable)
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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VincentHill
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posted January 07, 2005 09:35 AM
I made this correction above and post it here also. Someone has to keep me straight (Even if it is me!)
This part of my post was wrong (On my bike is putting out 39.375 GPH which is right at the 40 GPH it is supposed to do).
Stupid me, I was using 1/2 Gallon (64 OZ not 128 OZ for a Gallon) so it is putting out 19.68 GPH and this is under 14 PSI from the return side. Second, the 40 GPH I confused with the 40 PSI the pump is supposed to make (41.5 to be exact) With less money, we now buy the 1/2 gallons of OJ as opposed to the Gallons and this has had an effect on my Brain
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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NINJA12
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posted January 07, 2005 02:22 PM
wouldn't the return volume decrease as the demands for fuel increases to the injectors.
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dougmeyer
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posted January 07, 2005 03:29 PM
tslewisz,
Thanks for citing that piece. I forgot that I'd written it. Here's the whole text just to make it easier. It really answers most of your question, Vince. BTW try an dget that old brain to start thinking in pounds instead of gallons- much easier.
Pumps - How they Really Work!!
by Doug Meyer
..First a little about pumps. A pump moves a fluid. It creates a flow with pressure. You can have a lot of flow at a low pressure or a little flow at a high pressure or high flow at a high pressure or low flow at low pressure. Different types of pump designs are best for each of these requirements. Examples- a centrifugal pump like the water pump on your bike creates a lot of flow at a low pressure. A gear pump like the oil pump can create a generous flow at a high pressure. Flow and pressure are generally related in that if you retard the flow, the pressure builds. Allow the flow to increase and the pressure falls. Pumps are spec'ed with a certain flow at a certain pressure. An easy example would be a bucket and a hose. Household water pressure is about 35 psi. Run a hose onto a bucket and you get a fair amount of water in there pretty quickly. Put your thumb over the end and the pressure goes up dramatically, and the flow (amount of water getting into the bucket over a given time) goes down. The "spray" is better, though (remember that). Each type of pump has it's limitations. Pinch off the flow in a centrifugal pump and it just spins freely with no problem (and no pressure). Restrict the flow in a good gear pump and the non compressibility of the fluid can build pressure until something breaks or blows up. That's why there are pressure relief valves in oil systems. Pumps have a flow vs. pressure efficiency curve. Turn a pump too slow and flow is very small or zero, ask it to flow too much and pressure begins to drop- it can't "keep up", it cavitates or can't move the fluid fast enough to satisfy the requirement and the pressure drops.
The fuel pump in a ZX-12 is a kind of hybrid between a centrifugal vane pump and gear pump, called a friction pump. The electric motor (which is cooled by and submerged in the fuel) spins a thin plastic disc rimmed with small "teeth" like a very fine gear. This disc spins in a small plastic housing. The fuel goes to the periphery of the spinning wheel, is "grabbed" by the small teeth, spun around and forced out of the housing. It's not exactly a positive displacement pump like a gear pump, but it's not exactly a centrifugal pump either. It's a little of both. Problem is, it has a pretty small sweet spot of good flow and pressure. But, that shouldn't be a problem because a stock ZX-12 has a very predicable fuel requirement, and as you point out, the pump always spins the same speed. The pump NEEDS only to provide enough fuel to create no more than about 180 hp at no less than 47 psi. The pump does that just fine, but it does that at the very high end of it's efficiency curve. Ask it to provide enough fuel to create 200 hp and it can barely keep up. It can do it, but let it get worn or let the fuel get hot lowering the vapor pressure, or let the injectors get "sloppy" or let any number of other factors degrade it's performance and the flow (and pressure) drops. Less fuel means a leaner mix and soon, detonation and broken parts. How much fuel are we talking about here? The answer lies in something called Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC), which is expressed in pounds of fuel burned per horsepower per hour. Gasoline contains a pretty much fixed amount of heat energy that when "liberated" through burning is mechanically converted to horsepower. In a modern four stroke that amount is fairly constant at between .42 and .5 pounds of fuel per horsepower per hour. As an example let's pick .5 'cause the math is easy. 180 hp would require .5 pounds of gas for each of 180 the hp or 90 pounds per hour (PPH). A gallon of gas weighs about 6.2 pounds so that's 14.5 gal per hour or .24 gal. per minute at wide open. I'm told by Kawasaki engineers that the stock ZX-12 pump is a .65 liter per minute pump at 45 psi continuous. That converts to .21 gal per minute, 12.7 gallons per hour or 79 PPH. Ask it for more and you might not get it. Interestingly enough, that fuel delivery is enough for about 160 hp at .5 or at a more realistic .47, 164 hp. Guess what the average stock ZX-12 (2000/01) makes for HP? So, why not put in a different pump, one that is sized to deliver much more fuel at 50 psi. That way you are unlikely to be able to approach the point where it can't "keep up", where the pressure might drop a bit. The Muzzy pump flows over 350 PPH at 50 psi., enough for 700 hp. More than you need? Sure. But on a modified ZX-12 the stocker may very well be less than you need. There really isn't anything in between that fits the physical mounting requirements.
A few words about injectors and pressure may be in order here. An electronic fuel injector is a nothing more than an electromagnetically operated solenoid valve. There are two basic varieties, "high impedance" and "low impedance". In a high impedance injector, a current is sent to the magnetic coil in the injector which lifts a plunger and holds it open for a set period of time (in thousandths of a second or milliseconds) then cuts off and lets it close. Low impedance injectors are a little more sophisticated. They use a high current to quickly open the injector then a lower current to hold it there until closing. Better, but the "driver" circuitry and injectors are more expensive. The "open time" is expressed as a percentage of 100% (always open) and is called the duty cycle. A duty cycle of about 80% is preferred. Most OEM systems (including the 12) use the high impedance injector design. Given a pump of sufficient output,, the only way to increase the fuel to the engine is to lengthen the injector duty cycle. A drawback to this is that the longer you hold a high impedance injector open, the longer the high current is flowing through the coils in the injector, creating electrical resistance and heat. This is a bad thing for the injector's health. Also, the longer you have the injector open the more you put the pump into the high flow, high pressure corner of the pump's output curve. What might help this? How about more fuel pressure? That would flow more fuel through the injector in a shorter time. That additional pressure will also make a better "spray" (see bucket example above). The pressure flow relationship is not linear. It takes four times the pressure to get two times the flow through a constant orifice. Remember, flow through an orifice is volume over time and the duty cycle controls the time. To increase the fuel flow needed on the ZX-12 when raising the power from 165 to 200, would require an 8% increase in flow through the nozzles. If it were to be done with pressure alone, without changing the duty cycle, that would take an increase in pressure of 36%. On a stock system that would necessitate an increase of fuel pressure up to 61 psi., something the stock pump is clearly not up to. Again, the "bigger" pump will allow for more fuel to be pumped at a given pressure. Increase the duty cycle (orifice size) and the pump can "keep up".
All this talk about fuel flow and quantities makes me think about how easy it is to determine these numbers now that we have electronic fuel injection. Back in the day, to measure fuel flow mechanically we used "turbine" flow meters that put a signal to a digital indicator. WAY back in the day we actually ran a carefully measured (by weight) amount of fuel over time on the dyno and measured the consumption to figure out the BSFC. Now days it's real easy. An injector is rated for a certain amount (in cc's) of fuel flow at a certain pulse width (in milliseconds) do the math and you get an accurate measurement of the fuel per "squirt". You get one squirt per injector every other revolution (1/2 the rpm). Do a little more math and you know exactly how much fuel you are using at a given rpm. Do this on a dyno, and you know how much fuel per hp and you have the BSFC.
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VincentHill
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posted January 07, 2005 04:59 PM
quote:
wouldn't the return volume decrease as the demands for fuel increases to the injectors.
Yes, that is the reason I need the larger pump so that the amount of fuel return will always be greater than I need. That is also the reason for all of the testing and needing this last information so that I can simulate WOT with the engine off and the pump runing. I have put a "T" in line and using carb jets clamped in a fuel line and a measuring cup to measure the amount of fuel bypass and see what the flow return is at WOT. With the information that DM Supplied, I am going to get as close to 15 GPH as possible on Fuel bypass and then measure the output at the return line at different amounts of pressure to see if I have enough fuel to do this.
AGAIN, Thanks DM, to the exact HP you have the information I wanted and needed! This weekend I will install the Muzzy Pump and do some more flow testing.
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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dougmeyer
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posted January 07, 2005 08:06 PM
Vincent,
Why are you doing this excercise? THE PUMP WILL SUPPLY 350PPH AT 50PSI. Unless you are planning to make more than 700 hp you're ok. Just hook the damn thing up and adjust the regulator to give you the correct pressure at the nozzels (3-4psi) . If you are using stock injectors they CAN'T supply more than about 100pph even if you propped 'em open at 100% That gives you another 250 pph (or 500HP worth) to send to the nozzels..............
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VincentHill
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posted January 07, 2005 10:10 PM
DM, Of course you are right, but When you are Old, you trust nothing and check and test everything. I am 99.9% positive I will have waay more than I need, but I still want to just see it for myself. Even the Spray Nozzle Jets all flow a little different and it may take as many as 7 jets to get 4 almost the same flow rate. When I am putting ,my POT (Piece Of Trash) at Max Power, I do not want 1 cylinder getting anything different than the Others or run out of fuel because the Pump was not up to "Specs" ! I guess until God makes my parts, I will always test and check everything I get from everyone. (Don't you think a new Pump could be made less than perfect? and how would you want to find this out?)
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dougmeyer
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posted January 08, 2005 09:41 AM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 8 Jan 2005 09:44
Simple Vince,
Take the pump, a power source, a bucket, some solvent (so you don't blow yourself up), a regulator, a pressure guage, maybe a scale or a big measuring cup, a stop watch and some hoses, run the pump through the hoses against the regulator set at 50 psi into the bucket for a mimute or two and measure the amount of "fuel" in pound or gallons that ends up in the bucket. That's the high tech way I'd do (and have done) it.
Then you can sleep well (and we know an old man needs his sleep). 
Doug
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VincentHill
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posted January 08, 2005 11:21 AM
AMEN On the sleep! I like the do not blow yourself up part Thanks DM when I finish with this , I will send you a picture (If successfull)
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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TurboBlew
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posted January 08, 2005 09:55 PM
Vince..... still aiming as close for 200 as possible???
Take off the lab coat and do something that will deplete some brain cells.
Really changes your perspective...lol
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VincentHill
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posted January 09, 2005 05:54 AM
quote:
Vince..... still aiming as close for 200 as possible???
Take off the lab coat and do something that will deplete some brain cells.
Really changes your perspective...lol
Actually I changed Aim After October 2003 to 220 MPH. The Bike seems like "IT" DId not want to go over 199+. SO I am taking "EVERYTHING" into consideration and doing all of the things I think will improve it's attitude. Two more Aero Changes (Finish the Belley Pan for the Aero Seat and Hand Covers to clean up the air around the handle Bars, Hands, Arms & Shoulders) On the Engine, Just to get it to make 325 to 350 HP "Very" Safely. (With Exhaust Gas Temps of under 1,300 degrees). THEN "I" Want to go over 210 and Randall over 220 MPH
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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VincentHill
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posted January 16, 2005 02:51 PM
It is colder than it has been outside but I was out there for a while today. Inside, I installed the Muzzy Fuel Pump and it was not a bad deal to do. (Even I could follow the directions and had no problems) Thanks Mr. Muzzy!
Once I installed the pump and made new lines and unplugged and put a fitting on the tank to run the NX Fuel pump, I was ready to go. I hooked everything out and checked the flow of a #22 NX Jet 4 times at 20 seconds and got 39 CC (within a tenth or 2) every time. Then kept adjusting the bypass system I worked out until I had the same flow at about 5 PSI. My gauge is off from the time the NOS Backed up into the fuel pump (Do not ask ) so I set the Regulator (Finally) at 9 psi. (It now rest at 4 PSI)
39 CC is about .97 Ounces. Then with the same setting I tried a #28 Jet and flowed 68 CC's or about 2.31 ounces. I tried this several ways by holding my thumb over the jet with the engine running and then timing the flow and just turing the Key to see how much would flow. There was about .5 CC Difference more when starting under pressure.
SO I not need to see what the NOS flow is tomorrow and get and A/F out of this!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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