slug
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posted August 28, 2004 05:20 AM
but then again, when yousign the contract, you agree that if we are at war and your time to leave comes up, that you may not be let go until that war is over.
that's one of the points that gets initialed on the contract if i remember correctly. It's very specific, to make sure that people understand what they are getting in to.
I might agree about national gaurd being used overseas, not sure since i haven't studied the actual basis of the formation of the national gaurd and its stated duties. it is obviously within the law as it is now to use them. (and even in vietnam era national gaurd was used, they could be activated and sent to war then as well) Whether or not it originally was intended for that use or not is something that remains to be determined.
Well, he was in afghanistan, but still.
As far as sharing equally in all this, you might not have the sheer numbers of richpeople in military compared to the middle-income, BUT you have to realize that the upper income folks put alot more towards financing the workings of the government. which includes defense.
i'm pretty confident that in many cases the middle income people get a pretty fair cut in this. Much as the media likes to vilify those evil rich people, it is those same evilrich people that fund the majority of the government that those SAME people love so much ;P
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my other issue with forced service (acknowledging that it doesn't have to be military) that i did not touch on....
what exactly does "forced service" mean to you, or "mandatory service"
to me there is one word that is ugly, it is disgusting, and it was common in our country until the mid 1800s.
forced service, where you make it MANDATORY for someone to perform some work to have the right to live, sounds an AWFUL lot like slavery to me.
i am not willing to even start something that even SOUNDS Like that.
i will never support that, nomatter WHAT the intent.
Forced service will not build a sense of patriotism, or worth. Did slavery make slaves feel like American Citizens any more than they did before that experience? Did slavery make them feel like they were worth something? or instill a love for their country or national pride?
it won't work.
it may sound far-fethced, it may seem too harsh, and maybe my cynicsm about utopian ideas in the real world is colouring my perception of that. BUT i refuse to be party to allowing government-mandated service to the community as a prerequisite for living here. it is NOT the American way, it is decidedly UN-American. there is nothing free about that. it grates against our most basic Rights as human beings.
      
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted August 30, 2004 03:32 PM
well my feelings on this as being a careerist soldier is this.....Mandatory service wont work.....personally I dont want to share a foxhole with someone that doesnt want to be there, or didnt volunteer for it. and I dam sure dont want to be in a foxhole with anyone braver than myself..... 
I do however like the idea of everyone doing some kind of volunteer work for their country, I dont want to make it like slug stated so that it gives the apperance of the government not caring about the individual, but I thin that everyone in this country can take a little time and volunteer to do something to make this country better.....wether its being a boy scout pack leader, picking up trash on the side of the road, being a volunteer firefighter, or going to school with your kids once a month to help the teachers out......after all who benifits from acts such as these, we all do, either directly or indirectly......think about it.....what have to done for your country or community lately??????
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slug
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posted August 30, 2004 04:45 PM
HDL: i have no trouble with volunteers  that's what makes our country great.
i just don't see that making it mandatory as was suggested by vincent as being feasable. Because then you lose the whole volunteer part
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VincentHill
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posted August 30, 2004 09:10 PM
How about this then, Lets treat the people that do volunteer a little differently than the others! How is that? Actually do what you promise for them when it is time to do it! Pay the Service men on time, take care of them when they get sick and admit that they are sick and tell them the truth about that they are asked / ordered to do!
During the A-Bomb test, they did not know, but they do know now! Also make sure that they are taken care of when they get Old and cannot fight any longer as opposed to throwing them away!
HDL, what is the difference between a volunteer that had never planned to fight and one that was drafted? You know to watch out for the draftee!
I just got back from Ohio where your Guy had all of the traffic blocked on I-94 on his way to speak somewhere. I "WAS" 40 minuted early to turn in my car. I was 2 minutes late by the time I went around the other way!
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slug
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posted August 31, 2004 03:04 AM
i agree our VA medical care system is FUBAR. and anyone that thinks that government supplied helath care will be utopian needs to look at the VA system before they wish that system on themselves.
I carry VA 10%, not great or anything, but it's annoying to know that if i need work done because of it, the work is a year out by the time all the waiting is done. unless it is emergent, in which case i have to have it done locally, and then submit the charges to VA for reimbursment..which may or may not ever happen.
Our country has alot of systems in place for veterans, but the sheer volume of BS red tape and paperwork makes it largely inaccessible. Government waste makes a mockery out of most everything we have for the vets.
and every time something gets added, you triple the paperwork burden...it's what keeps government emplyees employed ;P
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VincentHill
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posted August 31, 2004 08:58 AM
AMEN Slug!! We all have something that there is 100% agreement on. Of all the things that Jimmy Carter did wrong, putting Max Cleland (How ever you spell it) some one that knows 1st Hand what is wrong in charge of the Va was a good Idea. They just need to stop the Bull and spend the money and allow the Vets to go where they need to go and get taken care of!
Lets try one more thing! Eisenhower spoke about the "Military Industrial Complex" and his fears of it. To me, any company that cheats on the specs of the equipment or over charges (Like the $1,600 claw Hammers and the $50,000 B-52 Tiolet seats) the Heads of the company's should mave Mandatory Jail time because this to me is "TREASON"! To take a great name like Bradley and make a piece of trash that could not stop a bullet and put a Gasoline engine in it! Now the Israelies put in Diesels and real Armor and turned it into something to be proud! We should have made it that way to begin with!
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted August 31, 2004 12:50 PM
Vince, anyone that joined ANY branch of service and thought they would NEVER have to go fight, was only fooling themselves. That would be like being hired on as a cook at McDonalds and thinking you would never have to cook a hamburger. Anyone that would so foolishly go into a job in any military without KNOWING what the possibilities were, is only fooling themselves.
I understand that when some people volunteer for the armed service dont realize what they have gotten themselves in for until its too late. But just the terms Armed Service, or Military would saprk a thought of the possibility of conflict in any prudent person that lives in America today, or atleast it SHOULD.
A draftee definately has a right to bitch and complain, they didnt sign up for the job, adn dont want the job. And in todays army, I would never want them there. Its hard enough over there with guys that signed. With all the bitching and complaining. They wouldnt/dont need the kind of demoralization that would come with introduceing draftees in the army in this point in time. With the lack of phones, mail, and other nicetees of home, the additional burden of the Draftees would just be a bit much to take........
Vinnie I do like your idea of holding the heads of buisness that over charge the military for items such as you mentioned above. but I say take it one step closer and hold the personel that purchased those items accountable as well. After all it is OUR money that they are wasteing.....
I am not up on what the isrealis have done, but I can tell you that OUR Bradleys, M2/M3 series Armored Personel Carriers are all Diesel powered, and always have been. The more recent versions are turbocharged as well, (I think). Its getting to the point where most all of our equipment is diesel powered to reduce the different fuels that are needed by combat units. Right now a good part of our generators are still powered by mogas, but those will be changed over in the next few years.....
as far as our VA goes, FUBAR is a serious understatement, you would think that we would hold the men and women who were injured while in service to protect our country would be cared for better than this. Some of these veterns have lost most all of what they have, or would have had , and now have only the VA to depend on, and we are letting them down.....in a big way....I see it first hand with my father in law right now.
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VincentHill
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posted August 31, 2004 01:29 PM
HDL, I need to clear this up for you and Slug. I have no problem with anyone in the Military having to go to war / Fight, but it is where and How! I think that the National Guard should only have to fight to protect us over here. I think the reserve should "FIRST" be used to handle the postions that the Regtular Army is doing such as Mechanics, Supply and Administration, then off to war. Also, if someone has declared war against us as in the Talaban in Afganistan, then we all go and fight. For a "Discressionary" war, I think the Regular Army should do the fighting. Yes I Know, now that we are there, we have to deal with it, but I am talking at the start.
Bottom line, anyone that can be Killed should receive proper treatment!
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redelk
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posted August 31, 2004 04:50 PM
 Edited By: redelk on 31 Aug 2004 17:53
quote:
To me, any company that cheats on the specs of the equipment or over charges (Like the $1,600 claw Hammers and the $50,000 B-52 Toilet seats) the Heads of the company's should have Mandatory Jail time because this to me is "TREASON"!
Over charging, double billing and shady book keeping are all far too common in our government's purchasing and procurement systems. Sadly, the two examples you gave have nothing to do with vendors ripping off the government or back room sweetheart deals.
The toilet set was $640, not $50,000. The "hammer"in question was not $1,600. It was $435 and it was not a hammer. Even Al Gore gave out "Hammer Awards" for those that help in "reinventing government" and cracking down on shady business practices among vendors. The problem here is that the "hammer deal" was in no way illegal and get this, it wasn't even PROFITABLE for the manufacturer. The "hammer" is one is my personal favorites when it come to "some folks just don't get it". Including Al Gore.
At $435, the government got a hell of a deal. The "Hammer" issue is not an example of businesses ripping off the government. Being one who regularly deals with government contracts on a local, state, federal and especially a military level, I can tell you for a fact that its a perfect example of the bloated government bureaucracy with it's layers upon layers of agencies and overseers.
That $435 was not for a hammer. According to the request for bid and later, the contract itself, the order was for "Hand Held Nail Insertion Devices". Some yahoo in one of the Federal Procurement offices thought he could build a better "mouse trap" or in this case, a better hammer. Sadly, this "engineering mentality" is more of the norm rather than the exception.
Anyway, the guy (or gal) took a standard hammer and started to alter the "specs". They added a few ounces to the weight of the head. Changed the dimensions of the "impact area" and "spread of the removal apparatus" (the nail puller). The even altered the shape of the handle and how it was the grip was wrapped.
Now the neat thing about all government contracts is that if one claims that they can meet ALL of the specifications contained in the request for bid and at least two businesses submit bids, the government is almost always obligated to accept the lowest bid. Even when the quantity is for several thousand "Hand Held Nail Insertion Devices", when one has to completely retool and create new molds... someone is going to pick up the tab. That someone is the American tax payer.
It would amaze many on how the government not the vendors do there designing. A alternator for say... a Chevy Chevette is identical to the ones used in some small single engine aircraft. I mean identical. With one minor exception. One is FAA certified and costs 4 to 5 times more. Wanna guess which on it is? All the same, I wouldn't mind that extra testing and inspection of something that will keep me up in the air and I'm not as worried about the other getting me to Micky D's.
Again, are there unscrupulous vendors out there taking advantage of the system? Of course there are. Yet before everyone goes out and starts claiming that Kellogg, Brown & Root is ripping off the government, take a DAMN CLOSE look at the request for bid and tell me that you can make sense out of it.
Hey, I'll even admit taking part in "working with the government" while the wrote their requests for bids and yeah, I might even be accused of scripting them in a fashion that is favorable toward me winning the bid. In reality, I spend more time removing their stupid... no, IGNORANT specs to where the product can be manufactured at a reasonable price and still perform to their specs or even better.
Still, it wasn't the vendor that put that gas engine in while the Israelis used diesel. The majority of the time, it is the government, not the vendor that changes specs in mid production. When the vendor does change specs, it is almost always due to the sheer ignorance and impossibility of meeting the original specs in the first place. When such corrections are done by the vendor, the government will alway look for a cheaper, not better way out.
It was our beloved government trying to cut corners on things that mattered while throwing caution to the wind when ordering friggin' hammers. The same could be said $7,600 coffee makers and $22 screws.
Vince, to give you a better idea of what I deal with on a daily basis, let's say I want you to get me some bear stacks for my 10R. I want them to be made out of aluminum but I also want them to be clear. Not unpainted. Not translucent. Clear as glass, but made out of aluminum. Kind of impossible, eh? No different than a request for clear white vinyl decals. I can give them clear or I can give them white, but I can't give them clear white.
Okay, you then explain to me (the government purchasing agent) that the only way the could be made clear is if they were made of some form of acrylic plastic and that material would not meet my other equally outrageous specs of being chemical resistant. Reluctantly, I agree to polished aluminum. Now I start messing around with the thickness, overall ID and OD, as well as the rate of the opening's increase. Nevermind that Bear has already spent months of tested to come up with the optimum numbers. I still want it made exactly to my numbers or he won't get the contract.
Bear wins the contract and starts production. Even though my engines will not be built for several months, I demand that the stacks be completed in two weeks. Oh, and by the way, he has to use my aluminum, not his and I want 15 stacks. Not 15 sets. Fifteen individual stacks. Yes, I know that there is 4 to an engine, but I still want 15. Now, should I get those stacks for the same price as say someone who buys just a "normal" set of stacks from Bear? Should I expect them to perform just as good as a "normal" set? I think that even you can realize that the answer is a big NO to both.
"Blanket Contracts" that can extend of a period of time even get more complicated. Cost adjustments for raw materials and labor costs are always a nightmare. Overrun and underrun percentages are often equally ridiculous. My contracts with the government are only in the thousands of dollars and I'll often just refuse to bid because the specs are so stupid. Still, if two companies bid it, the contract will be awarded. Imagine what a nightmare a BILLION DOLLAR government contract would be like. "No bid" or not.
What so funny is that everyone seems to just love to pick on Halliburton and connect it to Vice President. When Clinton was President, Halliburton was trading at almost $55 a share. One year after Bush took office, they were trading at around $12 a share. No, there wasn't a stock split. Halliburton's last split was in 1997. Today, it closed at $29.17. Their current profit margin is 1.48% and their operating margin is 3.27%. Yeah, them guys are really ripping us tax payers a new one. Hang 'em all!
Care to get into the previous contracts of earlier administrations? Wanna talk about Vice President Gore's "reinventing government" programs? Wanna talk about the investments of the Heinz Foundation? I'm not getting this info from Rush, Fox or any BS group like that. All of this is publicly available from Federal websites and Wall Street. You want to talk about scandals let's talk about Medicaid/Medicare over the past 20 years (not 4 or 12... 20 years) and what our government has done to take a great idea and screw it up.
Let's not be so quick to blame everything on the oil companies, the Halliburtons and such until on can back it up with ALL the facts. Sadly, one will find it is not these evil companies, but our stupid government and I'm not just talking about who's in the White House currently, either.
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted August 31, 2004 05:25 PM
I agree with you Vince, completely...unfortuneately we have downsixed the regular army so much that we can not support our commitments across the globe....so they use the Guard and Reserve to pick up the slack of the regular army.....if we hadnt started to downsize back in the late 80's and early 90's to try and save some money, we would be better equipped to do just as you suggest....
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slug
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posted August 31, 2004 07:50 PM
but but but..it's ALL about the oil!!!
hehe
thanks for the insight red, i wasn't sure how to debunk the 50000000 dollar hammer and the 1000000000000000 dollar toilet seats thing.. i know that navy we got whatever was cheap at costco for toilet seats, and hammers usually came from sears.
I do have to say that many contracts are bid and awarded, and then ZERO common sense goes in to retrofits. Shipyards build a ship to exact contract specs. It doesn;t matter if the contract and drawings are 12 years old, and there have been 3 new revisions. They still build it to 1978 spec. THEN they have to rip all the stuff out that has been revised or upgraded, and install the newer parts. they CAN NOT deviate form the contract plans, nor will they. they get paid twice for same work. it's a scam, but it is the fault of the writer as much as it is the one taking advantage of it.
But remember:
If it is bad, and G. W. Bush was within 10 light years, it MUST be his fault. If G. W. Bush had anything to do with it, (ie was within 10 light years) then whatever it is MUST be evil. Such is the level of hatred in this country for a single person, with no real tangible reason other than what democraticunderground.com says.
there is no middle ground with some people in this country.
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VincentHill
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posted September 01, 2004 04:53 AM
Redelk, what is wierd to me is when I worked for Devilbiss Company (If not for the government contract I would never have worked there! I was 1 of the 1st 2 black people to work there) One of the spray guns made for the government (Like either a JGA or MBC with a carbide tip to spray Primer normally cost (in the mid 60's) about $120 to $140 a gun. The government contract ordered 4,000 and got them for $45 apiece. So what I have seen personally is that the government get a "Better" deal than anyone else unless they are in Bed with the government like General Dynamics etc.
Also the Specs you are right there, we had to make special needles and caps that were not as good as we normally made but was what they ordered!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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