spencercyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted August 05, 2004 01:41 AM
SpencerCycle Product Release--This will help you guys ALOT
You seen here first and we have brought it to you first!
I am sure this will be of some intrest and can be put to GOOD use by EVERY board member on here. Use you imagination on what you can use this for and it can be done. VERY USEFUL and IT WORKS!!!!!!!! Some very fast guys are using these currently. The company that manufactures this has some optional accessories that will calculate HP per logged session and also a Aux. box that will allow extra sensors to be logged including enough so you can log EGT on each cyclinder. These are due out in a few months. WOW You will actually know what the HP was on your best run.
We have them instock and have been shipping units for close to a week now.
This unit will allow you to tune your bike in at ANY track and in any conditions and UNDER a load in real world conditions. This is VERY important to being fast and staying fast and together wherever you race. It will log up to 44 minutes.
Mustang Brand Dynometers (car dyno) incorporate this unit in for A/F reading into their software.
All you NOS racers/USERS.......this here can save you alot of money. You can tune and keep your eye on your Nitrous tune up so you done melt pistons....EVERY ROUND!
As you learn the software it will recommend how much you should change your fueling map.
Frequently Asked Questions
Q: Does the LM-1 really ship with a wideband O2 sensor?
A: Yes, it ships with the Bosch LSU-4.2 wideband, 5 wire oxygen sensor. The sensor cable is 10 ft. long. The LM-1 igrnores the calibration resistor present in some sensors, but instead calibrates digitally, and with better results.
Q: What is the target lambda reading for my vehicle's engine?
A: It depends. There are many factors that can affect the air/fuel ratio for your vehicle. Particularly at idle, many engines will show a lean lambda (lambda of greater than 1) when this is perfectly OK. For example diesel engines run this way. Other engines, at low speed experience "valve overlap" where the intake valves are opening while the exhaust valves are closing. This will cause oxygen to "leak" into the exhaust, raising the observed lambda. However high lambda values can also signal that the oxygen sensor is not fully immersed in the exhaust gases. For example, we have seen lambda measurements on motorcycles yield false lean readings due to the low exhaust pressure. By covering the exhaust, and eliminating outside oxygen from crossing the sensor, accurate lambda readings were gathered. In general, however, optimum horsepower is achieved between 0.85 and 0.90 lambda (12.45 AFR to 13.2 AFR using regular gasoline).
Q: Does your meter have an analog output?
A: Yes it does. It has two analog outputs usable for a maximum range of 0.5 to 1.523 Lambda (7.35 to 22.39 AFR). The resolution for the outputs is 10 bits 0-5 Volt (0.00489V steps). The Output Voltage over Lambda curves for each output are freely and independently programmable with the included software. See the LM-1 Manual in the support section of our web-site in section 9.6 'Programming the analog outputs' for information on how to program the outputs. See section 11.1 on how to connect an analog output of the LM-1 to simulate a narrow band sensor. Section A.1 shows the pinout and type of the output connector. As shipped, one output simulates a typical narrow band oxygen sensor, the other one is programmed to show AFR/10 for gasoline on a digital voltmeter (for example AFR of 14.7 outputs 1.47V). These analog outputs, once programmed, can be used to drive a closed-loop EMS, to feed a data logging system, or to drive an external display. Very careful attention has to be paid to grounding. It will not work reliably through the cigarette lighter. Optimally use the same ground that the data logger or ECU uses.
Q: How can you make it so cost-effectively?
A: Our design is 100% digital, allowing us to drastically reduce the amount of tight-tolerance (expensive) components.
Q: Can the analog output of the LM-1 provide the voltage straight from the sensor for the fuel injection computer?
A: The LM-1 can provide a wide-band AFR output, but it can't completely simulate connection to a wideband sensor (i.e. if your ECU tries to control the heater or the pump cell, it won't work).
Q: Does the LM-1 work with turbo-charged engines?
A: Yes.
The net of all this is that the sensor should be installed as close to the cat as possible, and (in non-cat applications) at least 12" away from the end of the exhaust.
Q: I have a custom fuel injection system in my vehicle, open loop. It has a dash mount for adjusting low and high-end richness. Could I use your LS-1 modular Subsystem to keep my air/fuel ratio correct at all times?
A: Yes, but the LS-1 is currently only available to OEM customers. You'll probably want to buy the LM-1 (shipping Q3), or, better yet, the LM-1X (planned for shipment Q3'04) for your application. The LM-1X has to be integrated correctly with the fuel injection system to keep the air fuel ratio correct at all times. This is more a function of the fuel injection system than of the LM-1X. The LM-1X is a controller for the Lambda Sensor that puts out a voltage proportional to Lambda or AFR. It is the job of the EFI then to regulate AFR according to its built-in maps, using the lambda data from the LM-1X.
Q: Does the LM-1 work with Diesel engines?
A: Yes.
Q: What is the LM-1 warranty like?
A: 6 months guarantee against workmanship defects on LM-1. Customer ships to factory, we replace or repair, and we pay shipping back to customer. Sensors are NOT covered (there are too many things folks can do to damage). Warranty is void if unit is used improperly (as described in manual). We 100% stand behind everything we make.
Q: I'd like to see the manual for the LM-1 if possible.
A. http://innovatemotorsports.com/support.php
Q: Have you tested the accuracy of your WB against other high end units? What were the results?
A: So far, we've tested the LM-1 against certified, precision-mixed gasses - an absolute reference. We will probably be doing some testing vs. other meters, but we're more interested in objective accuracy.
Q: What is the accuracy of the LM-1?
A: +/- 0.1 AFR
Q: Can the LM-1 Be used with my current dtalogger?
A: Yes the LM-1 can be configured to work with many data-loggers that accept data input.
Q: Can the LM-1 Be used on different vehicles?
A: Yes. The LM-1 is supplied with a O2 bung and Plug. The unit is mobile and can be installed on different vehicles as long as that vehicle has a O2 sensor bung installed.
Q: How heavy is the LM-1?
A: 11.6 ounces
Q: What size is the LM-1?
A: 7x4x1.5
Q: How much are the replacement O2 Sensors?
A: $59.00 The wide band O2 sensor is available at any automotive parts dealer and the kit is supplied with correct replacement part numbers and Brands.
Q: What can I data-log?
A: Just about anything you want. The most common uses are MAF,RPM,TPS,CHT,IAT,MAP,Fuel Pressure, Oil Pressure, NOS pressure...ect. The system works from 0-5v refrence signals as long as you know the refrence points....the software can be fully customize to that sensor.
Q: Does the LM-1 have an accelerometer?
A: Yes it can be set up to measure - or + G Forces. This is handy for consistent logging of launches.
Q: Does the LM-1 Have a Playback Mode?
A: YES. It will playback the recored session in real time. You will be able to see what was going on during the run.
Q: Can logged sessios be overlayed and compared?
A: Yes.
____________
Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
  
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Zaphod Breeblebox
Expert Class
Posts: 117
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posted August 05, 2004 08:40 AM
Looks very interesting....
So, Doug, if I understand this correctly, the LM-1 or LM-1X could be integrated into the FI system on, for example, a ZX-12R, resulting in a closed-loop FI system - with no need for a Power Commander.
How difficult would the electrical integration be?
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Zaphod
Y2K ZX-12R
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted August 05, 2004 09:01 AM
I am not sure..how it would hook up. You can call the company direct and ask the tech guys. They can tell you more about that. I am not sur eif the ECM on the ZX12R woudl allow this. If you have a aftermarket ecm (example Muzzy MMS) this is possible. But the stock Ecm...I think would not have provisions for it.
____________
Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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Zaphod Breeblebox
Expert Class
Posts: 117
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posted August 05, 2004 09:06 AM
Doug, I think you're right. I read the owner's manual for the unit, and if the stock ECM doesn't have a way to process the additional input (and I'm sure it won't) then it won't integrate into the stock FI system.
Oh well. Kind of like the search for the holy grail.....
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Zaphod
Y2K ZX-12R
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kz1100
Parking Attendant
Posts: 2
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posted August 05, 2004 09:50 AM
 Edited By: kz1100 on 5 Aug 2004 10:51
Along the same lines, what I understand is an O2 sensor is not fast enough to respond to a A/F ratio change in a closed loop system at anything more than a few thousand RPMs. I'm pretty sure most fuel injected cars are closed loop for lower RPMs and then they switch to open loop after a certain point. If you could run a hybrid system like that on the bike, it could most likely get rid of the idle hunt and the flat spot from 2500-3500 RPMs which would be awesome!
-Bill
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted August 05, 2004 10:04 AM
Close loop is good for sustained load conditions. example maxton mile or BonneVille or road racing. Quick burst through gears...such as drag racing...NO good. Sensors cant react quick enough. Open Loop maps are the way to go. BUT close loop running will allow you to obtain valuable info in which can be used to build a fueling map.
The purpose of this unit is a digital O2 meter and some data logging . The units are powerful and priced very well.
Set ups like this normally go for 1300-3000 dollars. This is a wide band O2 sensor not a narrow band. Compare this to the Dynojet Wide band meter.....absolutely a better and more powerful package here.
____________
Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted August 05, 2004 10:09 AM
Some software screen shots
____________
Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted August 05, 2004 10:20 AM
Pretty slick little unit.
What does this provide on top of the MMS in terms of functionality?
Not comparing the two..I just have the MMS and was interested in this item to compliment it!
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Do not taunt happy fun ball!
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted August 05, 2004 02:32 PM
For one....the MMS has tabular data logging ability...not graphical ability. I am pretty sur ethat it will also work with the MMS and allow closed loop operation thus allowing under load mapping and data logging. i will follow up on that....going to hook it up to mi MMS system next week.
____________
Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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your car is slow
Needs a job
Fuck Nitrous...Got Boost?
Posts: 4089
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posted August 05, 2004 02:40 PM
Excellent..Im looking forward to hearing what you find!
____________
Do not taunt happy fun ball!
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necro
Needs a job
My Grandma Is A Virgin
Posts: 2148
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posted August 05, 2004 07:01 PM
Too much reading...Information overload.
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3829
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Zaphod Breeblebox
Expert Class
Posts: 117
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posted August 06, 2004 06:25 AM
Doug, excellent information.
Out of curiosity: When you refer to the suitability of closed-loop vs open-loop operation (sustained loads vs drag racing, for example) the parameter that you're referring to must be the rate of change of RPM, correct? In other words, at some value - say, > 2000rpm/sec, the sensors can't keep up with the rate of change and the system must default to a fixed (or open-loop) map.
Have I got this right? If so, what's the maximum rate of change in RPM that the sensors can accomodate? And how does WOT (wide-open throttle) factor in?
(This may not be relevant, but in my old OBD '89 Mustang, I think that ECM only went open-loop at WOT.)
Thanks!
____________
Zaphod
Y2K ZX-12R
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted August 06, 2004 06:48 AM
yes WOT most systems use open loop. You can purchase sensors that are quick enough to run with close loop systems...but they are very high dollar.
____________
Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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Zaphod Breeblebox
Expert Class
Posts: 117
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posted August 06, 2004 06:55 AM
Got it - thanks!
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Zaphod
Y2K ZX-12R
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted August 06, 2004 07:29 AM
Doug,
this open loop, closed loop has me confused.
simple question: can this box monitor AF well enough during a 1/4 mile pass to give pretty accurate readings of what the AF was while you were making the pass. Like each thou of a sec?
____________
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted August 06, 2004 09:38 PM
Edited By: spencercyclecom on 6 Aug 2004 23:19
Entropy,
YES....it will log the A/F ratio down to the second on or .0 something of a second.
With the optional RPM converter...you will be able to log RPM and any 4 of these. TPS,MAP,MAF,ACELorometer,IAT,coolant temp.BOOST,NITROUS pressure,Nitrous solenoid activation,Fuel pressure ect. BUT if oyu only want to know what the A/f ratio is then the meter is all that is needed. the RPM Converter allows oyu to see what rpm it was recored at and TPS. You will be able to tune your bike on any giving day to the conditions you are racing in AND UNDER a LOAD. When we dyno tune on a dyno....that is not under a load like you drive on the open road. That is why if you have a dyno operator tune you bike and he doesnt know that you are a racer.....when you get on the track the bike may slow down. The A/f ratio will change(lean out). When I know a guy is going to race a bike....I richen up the a/f ration on the dyno. It will show a loss of HP on the dyno...but the bike will haul at the track. For the everyday rider....we set he a/f ratio as we normally do.
This tool will allow you to see what the ration is at speed and under a load. If you have a fuel mangement system (PC or high end) you can the change it to what you like.
NOW...on tohe explanation
Closed loop systems adjust the fuel based on sensor data...all cars nowadays run on closed loop systems. The start UP on a open loop system and then when the engine temp has reached a certain point and OR a elasped time has occured the ecm in the car switches over to closed loop operation. The vehicle then reads signals from air temp to tps to engine temp to O2 readings to ect. ect. and THEN changes the fueling requirements based on the reading of how much oxegen is the the exhaust to maintain a certain a/f ratio. That is why you can drive in the mountains and at sea level and the gas milage and or performance really doesnt change. The cars ecm changes the fuel requirements and maintains 14.7-1 a/f ratio. We ar not EVEN going to get into Mass Air Flow vs Speed Density operating systems.
In closed loop operation the ECU uses one or more oxygen sensors as a feedback loop in order to adjust the fuel mixture. This gives the name 'closed loop' from the closed feedback loop. The ECU won't run in a closed feedback loop all the time, so 'open loop' is used to describe the operation of the ECU when the mixture is not being adjusted in this way (usually when the engine is cold or when running under high load or WOT]
In closed loop operation the ECU uses the oxygen sensor to tell if the fuel mixture is rich or lean. However, it only knows that the mixture is richer or leaner than optimum. The ECU will richen the mixture if the oxygen sensor shows that the mixture is lean, and lean the mixture if it looks rich. The result of this is that the mixture will swing back and forward around the 14.7-1 ratio.
BIKES on the other hand do not run closed loop systems and only run open loop systems. This means that the maps and or the ecm is programmed to a certain parameter an that is what the bikes uses to fuel the engine. Closed loop systems must have a O2 sensor to operate in closed loop.
Open loop is better for performance and racing.
That should clear things up and may be info overload.
____________
Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted August 06, 2004 09:57 PM
quote:
yes WOT most systems use open loop. You can purchase sensors that are quick enough to run with close loop systems...but they are very high dollar.
Doug, can this unit successfully use such sensors? As a rough ballpark, what sort of dollars are we talking about?
I'm interested also in the Muzzy EMS and so this might be very useful: obviously the faster-reacting the sensors the better. Thanks!
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted August 06, 2004 10:11 PM
Edited By: spencercyclecom on 6 Aug 2004 23:18
This unit ONLY logs data from the sensors you hook it up to....so it could use them....but not price effective. I dont know where to direct you to those sensors...but i know there are super high. Closed loop operation is not good for 1/4 mile because the sensors cant react fast enough and besides...you ar eonly on the strip 7.3-10.5 seconds anyways...... by the time it changed parameters...you are changing the conditions and load by switching gears...useless.
Dont get wrapped up so tight into closed loop operation. Closed loop operatrion may be good for the salt flats...sustained speeds and loads. Then you could have a target A/F ration the your MMS would keep the A/F ration at that at all times based on inputs from the seasors. I would still feel open loop would be better.
This unit is for tuning your bike yourself and keeping an eye on the rich lean factor if you are racing......speedracing and or runnning a turbo or Nitrous. The cost of units as powerful as this and not as powerful are much higher than this one.
The Muzzy MMS systems allows closed loop operation...you can either turn it on or off. You still need a o2 sensor to do it.
____________
Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted August 06, 2004 10:24 PM
Thanks, Doug.
My interest is both in open-loop for the street and strip but with best data-logging I can get for evaluating mapping, which means each data point should correspond to a pretty brief unit of time; and both the data-logging and maybe actual-closed-loop for Maxton which is something I have wanted to do for a long time and still am nowhere near being ready for, but starting to work towards now finally. It could well be, you know more than I do on it I'm sure, that even there open-loop with correct map would be the preferable way to go... but maybe a great way to get the map is some closed-loop operation with data-logging, I don't know.
Anyway, definitely sounds like you are providing something very useful for a very good price here!
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted August 06, 2004 10:35 PM
Edited By: spencercyclecom on 6 Aug 2004 23:49
Dont forget.....this thing has a real time play back mode. You actually see the gauges moving and or you can watch the graph lines change. You can even pause it and view the reading on the logged info for that session. You can high light a section og the graph and overlay it with a previous run and compare. So if you were running the Maxton Mile...you could view the complete run in the pits ans watch what happend and then pause if you see something you dont like. It will store up to 44 minutes. Thats alot of Maxton Mile runs. You can also set it up to log when you shift....
____________
Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted August 06, 2004 11:09 PM
Edited By: trenace on 7 Aug 2004 02:16
Even if already correctly mapped, clearly invaluable for the above reasons you cite, enabling either ruling OUT mapping problems where they don't exist yet performance is off; or pointing right to a real problem even if subtle, and on top of that giving clear info helping decide how to correct it.
I never bought a Brand H air/fuel ratio meter because I considered that not to be accurate enough and obviously not to have the data-logging capacities. This appears to address all the issues.
Thanks for your help Doug!
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted August 07, 2004 08:10 PM
BTW, here is a thread that seems quite intelligent and informed discussing this product in considerable detail -- coming to very good opinions about it -- and with a lot of detailed information provided by the designer:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-393330.html
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted August 08, 2004 01:43 AM
Doug,
Thx for the info; my questions are mostly answered. I'll call you on Tues (don't think Spencer is open on Mon???) and ordering a unit and rpm adapter w/next day delivery. 7x4x1.5" isn't exactly tiny, but I gotta spot all picked out.
what do I need to mount the AF sensor in the mid pipe? can it be done with the exhaust on the bike or is welding involved?
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted August 08, 2004 06:08 AM
Here's a little more difficult question: what is the availablity of weld on bungs for stainless steel or Ti pipes? I have searched online and found nothing but mild steel bungs available.
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spencercyclecom
Zone Head
Posts: 535
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posted August 08, 2004 09:53 AM
The bung is supplied in the kit and YES we have S/S bungs. They are $8.00. Plain steel are supplied in the kit. The steel can be welded to s/s ...they are compatible
You will need to mount the O2 sensor somewhere between 9 oclock and 3
oclock position in the exh system. You can weld the bung on with the exh installed....depends on how goo do your welder is.
____________
Thanks
Doug Ray
SpencerCycle.com
SpencerCycle Center Inc.
Spencer Performance Group Inc.
Toll Free 1-800-510-1945 ext #10
International 1-800-510-1945 ext #11
Local/Tech 1-704-642-0987 ext #12
Fax 1-704-642-0987
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