lubricity
Expert Class
Posts: 362
|
posted June 05, 2004 04:26 AM
A lot of excellent advice here for a change. The other factor is the add-a-tive package. Oil is made up of two parts. One the base stock and second the additives. So you can have a shit basestock or shit adds and you wind up with shit oil and wear.
All the majors basicly use the shit items for all but one line.
As for viscosity, if the oil companies used good items then your engine will stay together, almost any viscosity.
   
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted June 05, 2004 10:14 AM
i did a little test this am:
bike had practically new Castrol GTX 10W40 in it, only 5 heat cycles, 6/8 dyno pulls, and 4 passes, on a pretty well freshened motor.
I got the temp up to 9pm and checked the oil pressure at 2000 rpm = 21psi.
changed the oil to Castrol GTX 10W30, heat cycled it a few times and checked the oil pressure at 2000 rpm, temp at 9pm = 21psi.
What's this prove? I dunno 
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted June 05, 2004 11:58 AM
It proved that you did "NOT" lose Oil pressure with the lighter less drag oil! Now put it on the Dyno and make the same change!
Castrol GTX Car Oil "SL" Rated?
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
koz
Expert Class
Posts: 304
|
posted June 07, 2004 03:27 AM
Again, the number ONE cause of engine wear is cold-starts. This does not only mean, starting in cold weather, it means starting your engine after it completely cooled to ambient temp. and drained down. The test would be to see how fast you get operating oil pressure, after starting. This is where synthetic has NO equal. Also, synthetic oil absorbs and dissipates heat far superior.
Tip - Do not rev the engine on cold-start, just start with fast idle until oil pressure is up to operating pressure.
Koz
|
Whimp
Parking Attendant
Posts: 26
|
posted June 07, 2004 10:07 AM
With the factory oil pressure relief valve setting somewhere in the low 20's. I don't think that you will see a change in pressure with that test. Any pressure over the valve setting, just gets by-passed into the crankcase. (No way to measure by-pass). Do you remember what or if there was a difference in idle pressure?
|
entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
|
posted June 08, 2004 06:07 AM
whimp,
I don't understand??? could you explain what you are saying about a low 20's psi relief setting????
My oil pressure goes to over 100psi at revs. The measuring point is a guage I have hooked up to the main galley on the right side of the motor.
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation
|
koz
Expert Class
Posts: 304
|
posted June 08, 2004 07:42 AM
entropy,
In the oil filter there is a by-pass valve. When the filter gets clogged and reaches a preset pressure differential, the valve opens. The by-pass valve has nothing to do with engine oil pressure.
Koz
|
Whimp
Parking Attendant
Posts: 26
|
posted June 08, 2004 06:24 PM
 Edited By: Whimp on 9 Jun 2004 09:25
Sorry , Had my head in my ass. Forget my post. Thanks
|
changintimes
Parking Attendant
Posts: 10
|
posted June 22, 2004 11:33 AM
quote:
i did a little test this am:
bike had practically new Castrol GTX 10W40 in it, only 5 heat cycles, 6/8 dyno pulls, and 4 passes, on a pretty well freshened motor.
I got the temp up to 9pm and checked the oil pressure at 2000 rpm = 21psi.
changed the oil to Castrol GTX 10W30, heat cycled it a few times and checked the oil pressure at 2000 rpm, temp at 9pm = 21psi.
What's this prove? I dunno
It proved your oil pump has a internal bypass valve in it to release pressure . Just about all engines do but you would have seen higher pressure without one for positive .
Oil wts run in centistrokes measured at 40c and at 100c " running temp for the latter which is 212F " .
30wts run from 9.3 cSt's to 12.49
40wts from 12.5 to 16.3 cSt's.
This includes the multi wts .
Engine oil filter designs usually use another bypass valve to safegard against blowing the filter can and spraying oil about when too thick a viscosity is chosen and ran at high rpm when cold .
When choosing a bike oil one of the ways to make a educated purchase is to look at the vi @ 100c along with the HT/HS @ 150c . That there depicts the oils shearing tolerance .
All oils are not created equal ...... even in the same viscosity .
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted June 22, 2004 12:38 PM
I think this guy know a little something about Oil!
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
Hells Dark Lord
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
|
posted June 22, 2004 12:42 PM
I am thinking you are right Vinnie......or he sure made up ssome good shit, I believe him.....llmfao.....not sure what he said, but I believe him....lol
____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
|
changintimes
Parking Attendant
Posts: 10
|
posted June 22, 2004 02:41 PM
It's a hobby man , a hobby .
I think I saw posted about straight 30wts .
Speaking in terms of synthetic 30wts only it is possible to produce a formulated engine oil without viscosity index improvers " polymers that uncoil as heat is inducted into the oil and makes it thicker " . However this oil could not be made with PAO Synthetic basestocks alone . It would need have a good bit of TMP , Polyol or other organic ester in the brew and pour point would not hover near the -50F mark like conventional store oils .
I would only advise a minimum HT/HS of 3.9 for a bike engine that see's street duty . Castrol GTX 10w-30 has a HT/HS of 3.1 , the 10w-40 is 3.9 but...... the 10w-40 GTX has recently been reformulated to meet ISLAC GF-3 fuel economy standards . It will shear pronto in a bike motor and one will be running a 30wt in no time . Even the GTX 20w-50 will go down to a 30wt and thats in the right conditions without fuel dillution . Always need to factor in 1-4% fuel in most of the bike oils at the end of their " sentance " .
The red cap Mobil 15w-50 car oil has an HT/HS of 5.1 for some reference to HT/HS . Mobil 0w-40 is 3.6 and I think Motul Ester 15w-50 is near 6.0 if memory serves correct and many others in between .
ACEA specs it's A3 rating to have a minimum HT/HS of 3.5 . Only a couple over the counter 30wt synlubes will make this cut . ACEA A3 has long drain capabilities unlike the A1 rated buck a quart dino's .
Nice forum guys , excuse me while I surf here for 12R info .
Take care .
|
Hells Dark Lord
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
|
posted June 22, 2004 04:30 PM
ok, let me ask, what are YOU running for an oil in your bike?
____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
|
changintimes
Parking Attendant
Posts: 10
|
posted June 23, 2004 03:39 AM
Kawachem 10w-40 Synthetic in the liquid cooled .
Maxima 15w-50 Synthetic in the aircooled .
The Kawachem is rebottled Motul E-Tech 100 and I find it somewhat funny that it's a friction modified oil with moly and boron and still passes JASO MA . JASO MA also has a cap on sulphated ash of 1.2 for less deposit when burned making for a good car oil thats a bit better than OTC 40wt synthetics . Mobil is the only maker of true OTC synthetics anyway , the others are FAKE group III and mixes of . I use it " Kawachem " in an 04 model car I have also with negligable impact on fuel mileage and it looks as though it will be a 8-10k oil for me with mostly hi-way miles in the car. It's a light 40wt coming in @ 13.2 cSts at running temp of 212F and can be bought for under 6 bucks .
Two other oils I really like is the 5w-40 and 10w-40 Maxima full synthetic . The new packaging with the little grab handle will have their newest formula in it and if one has a friend who buys through Parts Unlimited these oils are not really too expensive . Like 6.10 a liter .
|
changintimes
Parking Attendant
Posts: 10
|
posted June 23, 2004 04:10 AM
quote:
OK,
I am simply interested in the pros/cons of higher/lower viscosity at optemp in my race engine.
Q: 10W50 vs 10W30????
Be it a drag or a road race engine it will still need large amounts of anti-wear additives in the oil . A driver runs on the oil film " hydrodynamic cushion " most of the time then when you hit it the anti-wear additives some of which are heat activated step in , these include moly , phosforus , zinc , boron and overbased calcium . These additives are depleted over time so the more the better to an extent . A race engine of any type will run outside the oil film and on the boundry additives all the time so a synlube will provide more shear strenght over a mineral oil and a lower viscosity synlube can be ran with near same protection as a thicker mineral oil all the while flowing better over the valve springs , through the bearings removing heat from those and other parts but comes a point to where a motor might be seeing temporary viscosity shear with too light an oil in it and actually be down on power a bit depending on engine clearance set-up , age ect . At that point one's lucky if he catches whats going on through engine oil analysis before a bearing is grabbed and stuck .
The point is I guess in racing is to use an oil that gives the ultimate protection even if it costs a few horsepower . A guy can't win a race with a broke motor . There is a plethora of oils out there and what works for one and how he drives might not be the best for the next .
Only when getting very close to setting a record that would make money would I tune the engine further using these ultra light 7-9 cSt racing oils offered these days .
But that just me and my opinion .
|
changintimes
Parking Attendant
Posts: 10
|
posted June 23, 2004 04:24 AM
Edited By: changintimes on 23 Jun 2004 05:26
I failed at posting a pic , please delete
|
Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
Posts: 568
|
posted June 23, 2004 04:44 AM
What is the ester advantage?
What is your recomended mileage for changing oil?
|
koz
Expert Class
Posts: 304
|
posted June 23, 2004 05:12 AM
This is an old post, but I throw it up every once in a while to help with some of the questions about motor oil. So, if you have seen it before, sorry. Hope it helps
Grade/weight of oil - Viscosity (flowability) is how to measure the shear strength of a thin layer of oil. A bearing works by using a thin layer of oil not by the oil pressure generated by the pump. If you use too high a weight oil the layer will not form fully or may not get into the bearing at all. If you use too low a weight the layer will not give the bearing the proper protection. Bottom line, make sure you stay within the manufactures recommended ranges.
Choosing the right oil - The oil companies provides "typical inspection data" to there distributors, and you get it from either. This data contains the actual physical and the common chemical properties of the oil. The most important properties to considering oil are, viscosity, viscosity index, flash point, pour point, percentage of sulfated ash, and percentage of zinc.
Multi viscosity oil is created by adding polymers (chemicals) to a base 5W, 10W, 20W. Think of a 20W - 50W as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight when hot. Keep the weight range as narrow as possible. Polymers are prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown.
Viscosity Index - The Number indicating the rate of change in viscosity within a given temperature range. The higher the number, the lower the change. The higher the number the better. Important for bearing. Approx. range 110 to 210
Flash Point - Temperature oil gives vapors that can ignite. The higher the flash point the better. Approx. range 350 to 510
Pour Point - 5 degrees F above the point chilled oil will not move in testing. The lower the pour point the better.
Approx. range -80 to -10
Percentage of Sulfated Ash - How much solid material is left when the oil burns. The lower the better. Approx. range .5 to 2
Percentage of Zinc - Amount of zinc used as an extreme pressure, anti-wear additive. Zinc should be used when metal makes contact with metal. This should not occur. I try to stay away from any additives . High zinc content can cause deposits and plug fouling. If used in oil .11 would be the minimum effective percentage.
The pure synthetic oil is far superior to petroleum due to much higher temp. oxidation resistance, high film strength, very low tendency to form deposits, stable viscosity base, and low temp. flow rate. I recommend Amsoil and Mobil 1, their data is among the best.
Filters - The best filter rating is about 28 microns. Too small and the filter will clog and bypass. Too large and particles 30 microns and larger can pass thru.
Koz
Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
20W-50
AMSOIL 136 482 -38 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 122 440 -15 .85 .12
Exxon High Performance 119 419 -13 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 125 465 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 129 390 -25 1.0 .16
Pennzoil GT Perf. 120 460 -10 .9 ---
Quaker State Dlx. 155 430 -25 .9 ---
Red Line 150 503 -49 --- ---
Shell Truck Guard 130 450 -15 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden 4 174 440 -35 --- .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 174 440 -35 --- .13
Unocal 121 432 -11 .74 .12
Valvoline All Climate 125 430 -10 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 140 440 -10 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 140 425 -10 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 146 465 -40 <1.5 .12
20W-40
Castrol Multi-Grade 110 440 -15 .85 .12
Quaker State 121 415 -15 .9 ---
15W-50
Chevron 204 415 -18 .96 .11
Mobil 1 170 470 -55 --- ---
Mystic JT8 144 420 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 152 503 -49 --- ---
5W-50
Castrol Syntec 180 437 -45 1.2 .10 .095 % Phosphor
Quaker State Synquest 173 457 -76 --- ---
Pennzoil Performax 176 --- -69 --- ---
5W-40
Havoline 170 450 -40 1.4 ---
15W-40
AMSOIL 135 460 -38 <.5 ---
Castrol 134 415 -15 1.3 .14
Chevron Delo 400 136 421 -27 1.0 ---
Exxon XD3 --- 417 -11 .9 .14
Exxon XD3 Extra 135 399 -11 .95 .13
Kendall GT-1 135 410 -25 1.0 .16
Mystic JT8 142 440 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 149 495 -40 --- ---
Shell Rotella w/XLA 146 410 -25 1.0 .13
Valvoline All Fleet 140 --- -10 1.0 .15
Valvoline Turbo 140 420 -10 .99 .13
10W-30
AMSOIL 142 480 -70 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 140 415 -33 .85 .12
Chevron Supreme 150 401 -26 .96 .11
Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 392 -22 .70 .11
Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 400 -31 .85 .13
Havoline Formula 3 139 430 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 139 390 -25 1.0 .16
Mobil 1 160 450 -65 --- ---
Pennzoil PLZ Turbo 140 410 -27 1.0 ---
Quaker State 156 410 -30 .9 ---
Red Line 139 475 -40 --- ---
Shell Fire and Ice 155 410 -35 .9 .12
Shell Super 2000 155 410 -35 1.0 .13
Shell Truck Guard 155 405 -35 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 175 405 -40 --- ---
Unocal Super 153 428 -33 .92 .12
Valvoline All Climate 130 410 -26 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 135 410 -26 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 130 410 -26 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 140 450 -40 <1.5 .12
5W-30
AMSOIL 168 480 -76 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 156 400 -35 .80 .12
Chevron Supreme 202? 354 -46 .96 .11
Chevron Supreme Synt. 165 446 -72 1.1 .12
Exxon Superflow HP 148 392 -22 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 158 420 -40 1.0 ---
Mobil 1 165 445 -65 --- ---
Mystic JT8 161 390 -25 .95 .1
Quaker State 165 405 -35 .9 ---
Red Line 151 455 -49 --- ---
Shell Fire and Ice 167 405 -35 .9 .12
Unocal 151 414 -33 .81 .12
Valvoline All Climate 135 405 -40 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 158 405 -40 .99 .13
Valvoline Synthetic 160 435 -40 <1.5 .12
Koz
|
changintimes
Parking Attendant
Posts: 10
|
posted June 23, 2004 07:21 AM
Edited By: changintimes on 23 Jun 2004 08:29
One cannot judge an oil by the viscosity index or the spread due to the fact mixed hydro streams are used to blend to a target VI and the many different type of polymers available for use, here's an example of a larger spread being a better oil which is not always the case .
Mobil Drive Clean 5w-30 vi index 156
Mobil Drive Clean 10w-30 vi index 135
The 5w-30 will have a larger percent of group II or II+ base oil blended in to aid cold weather performance without doping to no end with VII"s " viscosity index improvers sometimes called polymers " . The higher base group will have less waxey particulates after refining and allow for less pour point depressants to be used generally .
Here's a couple of 10w-40's
vi at 40c 79--- @ 100c 14.4
vi at 40c 119@--- 100c 15.1
Same vi index but the second oil is a bike oil with less VII's and a higher flash point .
Esters ,
pages could be written but for the most part they have higher film strength than pao's when the going gets tough and a polar affinity to metal which not only aids in start up protection it will seek metal surfaces and attach and can in some cases actually remove sludge contaminants by taking their place on the surface .
A formulated engine oil cannot use a full ester base because a little part of PAO must be used to mediate the seal swell . Much like when a PAO formulated oil uses ester to offset shrinkage .
In other formulated oils using higher mineral base groups the makers use esterfied type of ZDDP " zinc " and even esterfied polymers to maintain seal characteristics . The higher group dino's have the natural solvency refined out of them . Ester's have a natual solvency but there are many @ over 150 . 7 of them are used in gasoline engine oils . All have drawbacks but when formulated with other additives and base oils they last and protect better than all other oils when sentenced to duty in a motorcycle engine which will distinguish the men from the boys of the motor oil world .............
There's more but out of time .
|
lou_zx12r
Expert Class
One Day at a Time
Posts: 196
|
posted June 23, 2004 08:15 AM
AH!!! why do I read oil posts  Now my head hurts 
I have been going with my personal expereinces and have yet to have an oil problem. I Use full synthetic 20W-50 year round. The bike sits in my garage (not heated) and yes in the winter I ride it every chance I get. It hasn't made any funny noises during start ups. I have been doing this with all my bikes over the last 20 years. I don't pretend to know anything about oil, but my rule-of-thumb is to use any of the manufactures recommendations. If the bike sat outside I probably would use 10W-40. It the engine dies it's probably because of something else not the oil. You did ask about race though, In this case I would use whatever is recommended by the builder.
____________
2000 ZX12R 40shot
2012 ZX14R
2009 Concours 14
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC