entropy
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posted June 03, 2004 02:41 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 3 Jun 2004 03:44
my turn to ask an oil question
OK, I have been a member of this forum for years and it occurred to me that I have never asked an oil question.
I am NOT getting into Syn vs Semisyn vs Dino,
I am NOT getting into Mobil vs Motul vs Royal Pink, etc,
I am NOT getting into car vs MC oil,
I am NOT getting into detergent vs non-detergent,
I am NOT getting into special additives, pros/cons,
I am simply interested in the pros/cons of higher/lower viscosity at optemp in my race engine.
Q: 10W50 vs 10W30????
Any thoughts?
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VincentHill
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posted June 03, 2004 03:01 AM
YES! A long time ago and older person said to me "There is no Performance in Oil" I later realized that he meant "If you could run without Oil the engine would make more HP. 2nd Herb Reiber (The long time Sponsor of Gary Nixon did Hil Climbing with his Indian back in the Day. He would fill the bike with Castro R, Run the engine, remove the Oil and then make his run! Pops Yoshimura never used anything "Heavier" than Motul 30 weight Oil back in the 80's. Last, Since the car companies are all under the CAFE (Coprorate Average Fuel Economy) notice that they have gone to 0 / 20 weight Oils which have very little Drag on the engine.
Personally If I could find it, I would use a straight 30 weight Oil in the race engine. I would never use 50 weight (Unless it was a Harley)
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entropy
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posted June 03, 2004 03:25 AM
Vincent, thx much for the response! You have been at this game for a l-o-n-g time, and are a wealth of info. I gotta meet you one o' these days; we crusty ole TFA-ers gotta stick together.
BTW, I will be near DC next mon-wed visiting my wife's bro & family; also my daughter wants to take a gander at Georgetown.
Any chance I could buy you a beer and meal? Things'll be hectic, but maybe we can work something out?
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VincentHill
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posted June 03, 2004 03:43 AM
GeorgeTown is Always "Hectic"! I am Flexible and can usually get away for an hour or two during the day (Pay later with a late stay at work) or in the evening! Send me a PM or e-mail and I will give you my numbers.
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted June 03, 2004 03:46 AM
what are you trying to say with that "been in this game a l-o-n-g time comment Entropy? Are you saying that Vinnie is O-L-D? lmfao
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entropy
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posted June 03, 2004 03:53 AM
quote:
what are you trying to say with that "been in this game a l-o-n-g time comment Entropy? Are you saying that Vinnie is O-L-D? lmfao
yep, he's even older than me (55) 
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tuusinii
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posted June 03, 2004 04:14 AM
I'd say it depends what You want. IF You want max HP use the lightest weight but don't be surprised if Your engine breaks. If You want more lasting engine - use heavier weight. And I wouldn't use 30 weight in my daily bike. KHI recommends 10W40 - 20W50. And if You live in hot climate use the heavier. And also the change intervals have something to do this because the oil gets lighter the more You use it (with other weaknessees too...) I use almost always 20W50 (if it isn't snowing  ) and the engines have looked very good when dissambled ( even after 150 -200k km). And Yes it would be nice if You didn't need oil - but ain't going to happen - at least before those ceramic cylinders come along - or electric... And I think that the engines of Herb Reiber or anyone else not using oil didn't survived very long - maybe enough to win the race but not riding from Your house to Your favourite stretch of twisties... Todays motors need oil and if it isn't overly light or thick it's OK
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tuusinii
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posted June 03, 2004 04:15 AM
Oh - I didn't read Entropys post too carefully - he asked about RACE engines....
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Marcos Peguero
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posted June 03, 2004 04:32 AM
From all I have read I will use 5w 30 oil for race pourpuses. Less than that is 2 much for me, more than that less power sometimes.
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CrotchRocket
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posted June 03, 2004 04:39 AM
entropy, I dont think 10-50/10-30 is a difference...Nothing that can be measured anyway!!!...0 weight oil is a different story...I heard guys running 1 or 2 quarts of 0 weight on their big motors...I do know that it ruins the motor, but they have the $$$ to rebuild all the time...
I'll stick with 10-40...
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Ra12r
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posted June 03, 2004 04:57 AM
The bearing clearances are designed for particular weight oils. Too thick and the flow is reduced, too thin and the coverage cushion is gone. Choose a good brand and stay with the prescribed thickness. I have run 20w-50 for a long time with no issues, but have gone back to 10w-40. My idea now is more about which flows the best through the engine as I have had bearing issues. (Even though my bearing issues wasn't about the lack of oil).
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Marcos Peguero
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posted June 03, 2004 05:24 AM
Ra12r,
There are some presicion machines like turbos, compresors that if you run the wrong oil tipe or brand the thing goes boom. You are rigth about that.
For my bike I use 15-50.
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VincentHill
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posted June 03, 2004 06:14 AM
Remember, "Straight 30 wt is a heavier Oil than 10 w 40 and breaks down very little and just may be even stronger than anything less than 20 w 50. I know some people that are using "zero" Wt oils as on 0 w 30 or lower. but I would not use anything with a "0" Anywhere.
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ScaredyCat
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posted June 03, 2004 06:16 AM
What Ra12R said - plain bearings are cleverer than they seem.
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted June 03, 2004 02:05 PM
I typically use a straight 30 weight in the summer time, and go to a 10W-30 when its gets cooler out..... I think I am gonna run Motul in it from now on, everyone seems to have pretty good luck with that. And I am gonna replace the brake fluid with Motul as well, in all my bikes. I tried Amsoil, but dont like the way it makes the clutch and tranny feel......
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tuusinii
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posted June 03, 2004 09:35 PM
quote:
Remember, "Straight 30 wt is a heavier Oil than 10 w 40 and breaks down very little and just may be even stronger than anything less than 20 w 50. I know some people that are using "zero" Wt oils as on 0 w 30 or lower. but I would not use anything with a "0" Anywhere.
Why would straight 30 be heavier than 10W40? The part about it not breaking as fast is probably true but how can it be heavier if the weight is measured with same manner?
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted June 04, 2004 03:02 AM
not an oil expert, I just know whats been working for me....I like the 30 because it doesnt change on me, on a good hot day the oil is already thin from the outside temp. and that is my main concern is oil circulation on start up after its been sitting for a few day....and I want the oil to remain consistant through out.....when its cooler out, obviously that wont work....
Why would straight 30 be heavier than 10W40? I dont know, you would have toask someone far smarter than me.....lol
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koz
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posted June 04, 2004 05:36 AM
Edited By: koz on 4 Jun 2004 06:49
Do yourself a big favor, use the manufactures recommended viscosity. To get the maximum performance out of you oil, keep the higher number as low as possible, but stay within the recommended range. (Example) If it is recommended, by the manufacture, you can use 10/40 or 20/50 in your geographical location. You will get faster start-up oil flow with the 10/40. Be careful using straight 30 weight oil, it may not have large enough molecules to provide adequate protection, also straight 30 weight oil usually only comes as a petroleum based oil. The best protection you can get is with 100% pure synthetic oil, period! I personally use 10/40 motorcycle Amsoil, in the summer and 0/40 in the winter. The largest percentage of engine wear is caused by cold starts. Thats why the lowest recommended viscosity full synthetic oil is BEST! Any brand is overkill, so choose the one that you like, as long as it is full synthetic.
As far as race engines there are race specific synthetic oils that contain several different additives to protect against extremes. These additives themselves can cause problems. The least amount of additives in the oil the better.
I am not willing to compromise the engine using too low a viscosity, or oils loaded with additives to maybe gain a miniscule amount of power.
Koz
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VincentHill
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posted June 04, 2004 06:45 AM
"0" Weight Oil has 0 Viscosity and the process with the expanders make it go to 30 or 20 weight oil. the same thing for 5 w 30, 10 w 30, 10 w 40 and 15 or 20 w 50. The first number "IS" The true and natural viscosity of the oil. This means under start up, straight 30 weight oil "IS" a heavier weight / viscosity oil than even 20 w 50.
When 20 w 50 starts to break down, it is usually the big end first because the oil really does "Start to lose it's Magic". So in essence if you look at the credentials of straight 30 on the automotive shelf you will see it has a lot more than any other oil! "Back in the day" we all used Castrol R 30 or Castrol R 40. They were very gummy oils, but they held up no matter what!
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entropy
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posted June 04, 2004 07:10 AM
i thought the 1st # indicated "cold" viscosity, and the 2nd# indicated the optemp viscosity.
I'm mostly interested in using a viscosity optimum for a race engine at optemps.
I betcha that the difference between 10W30 and 10W40 is infinitesimal in my application. (just guessing)
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koz
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posted June 04, 2004 07:25 AM
Mr. Hill
A straight 30 weight petroleum oil usually has very little, or no additives. That is why it WAS so popular. Yes, the lower number is usually the base oil in a multi-viscosity oil. Viscosity is NOT in the "Bigger is Better" category. It is in the "Use what is recommended" category. I am not sure what you mean by "It has a lot more than other oil". The lowest rated synthetic based oil is way better then ANY petroleum based oil.
Koz
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VincentHill
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posted June 04, 2004 08:15 AM
Edited By: VincentHill on 4 Jun 2004 09:22
Read below
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VincentHill
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posted June 04, 2004 08:21 AM
"A Lot More" certifications, passed tests, and applications.
Yes, the 1st number is the cold, but it is also the base weight of the oil also.
Yes, the reccomended weight of oil is "USUALLY" better, but better for street riding, fuel mileage etc. We are talking Race Engine
Ent, I use a 10 w 40 Motul e-tech 100 because it has Ester and Pao mix in snythetic formula. Ester is more expensive, but cannot do everything as well as the PAO. I can see actual loss of HP using 50 weight oil and in our engines, that oil may not do the best possible job. For engine life, I would not go thinner than 30 weight either. I know in test that 20 weight will make more hp, but how long can the engine live at max usage and min oil weight?
Last, as fas as I know, there are straight weight Syntheic Race Oils!
http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=RLRO&Category_Code=RLOA
I think Redline only makes Synthetic Oil?
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tuusinii
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posted June 04, 2004 12:28 PM
I'm with koz - its about recommendations. The engines are built for some wiscosity - if You use either too heavy or too thin - it isn't good. And there is a hp difference in using thin oils but I wouldn't take that difference on the cost of the engine. In cold climate - and I mean really cold (0-5 C) - I could use 30 weight oil but when it's hot and You use the engine long I'd count on 50 weight oil. And 20W50 means that it has the wiscosity of straight 20 in cold (was it 0, 10 or 20 C) and a wiscosity of straight 50 in hot (was it 80 C). And the reason why straight 30 may last longer is because it (usually) has less additives. But there is also one other considiration. When for example 20W50 starts to fail it still becomes first kind of 20W40, then even 20W30. But when straight 30 starts to break it allready is too thin... I think that in race engine You can get away with 5W30 or something like that but don't put it in the streetengine. And also one thing about those tests on different oils. I'd think that if the test are not done good, ie the oil temp hasn't rised enough, the heavier weight oils are much heavier. For example if You test 5W40 to 20W50 and the engine isin't hot enough You get much better result to the lightes oil than the difference in reality is. And was it last year or when I read a test with different kind of oils on same bike on dyno in Motorrad magasine. They had some non-mark mineral oil, Castrol mineral and Castrol synthetic. The differences were almost zero ( can't recall now but the differences were from less than 1 hp to 1 and a change) and the synthetic wasn't even best in som test. They used to bikes: SV650 and Busa (if I remember right) . Isin't this talk about oils fun - everyone has an opinion - and usually they differ.
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VincentHill
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posted June 04, 2004 01:10 PM
One thing to take into considerationis the heavier oils create heat with internal friction and we are talking "RACE" The engine is not supposed to live 100,000 miles! Race we are looking for 1,000 miles to be a long way!
If anyone can remember when Kawasaki Came out with the H-1 it was a 3 cylinder 2 Stroke 500CC 's This was right at the time the technical papers were stating that no one could make a 500CC 2 stroke engine that would not blow up from the heat! In 1969 when they came out, they killed every Misquito for miles. They thought the center cylinder would seize and ran a lot of oil through them. Eventually, they realized that they had too much oil goinf through the engine and lowered the amount of oil and the weight to 30 weight!
I bring this up because the theories and thinking at that time was like today, they were all afraid of hurting the engines with too little or too thin of an oil! Read what Red line Oil says and then ENT, get some 30 weight and race your stuff and most likely it will outlast the 50 weight people!
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