jonwright
Needs a job
Posts: 2416
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posted May 13, 2004 07:59 AM
Yeah - a side of me certainly feels that way, Rick. I'm just so pissed at how those mother fuckers can do that kind of shit to people and just think it's okay.
I don't know.
Oh, and as far as serving the country, I'll have to say that a man like Bush who 'served' in the National Guard with a cherry assignment isn't much of service. He never got shot at when others were. What makes him different from any other draft dodger in that area? He just happened to have better connections that the other fuckers that went to Canada.
Anyway. I'm pissed and not really sure what to do with it.
  
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Ninjaman12R
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as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted May 13, 2004 09:05 AM
Same here......
Same here Jon. All I know is that I could not contain my rage if I were to ever have to witness anything like that in person.
I guess when I ran out of bullets I'd be a dead motherfucker.
My thinking is that there is no solution. Killing is like lying. Killing just breeds more killing. But obviously you don't want to let the ragheads get away with this shit. Who knows, If I were in power I'd say kill them all, and if there is a god, let him sort them out. But I'll never be in that position because I inhaled. 
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21895
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posted May 13, 2004 10:20 AM
Post a link on this site to the video and it WILL be removed.
Do you visit sites like "faces of death" ?
This isnt it.
Once again, have some RESPECT for the man's family and friends. DONT pass that link and video around.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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Ninjaman12R
Needs a job
as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted May 13, 2004 10:28 AM
Fuck "Faces of Death".....
I've been stupid enough (back in my youth) to sit and watch two of the Faces of Death videos. In all honesty it fucked me up to see that shit. 
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted May 13, 2004 10:54 AM
it's amazing how a beheading gets us into a total uproar yet someone being shot in dead just doesnt have the same effect. there's just something sick about beheading. it's also interesting about how if we see video of someone being killed, be it by machete or a shot to the head (and i aint watchin either way, taht stuff makes me ill), we are much more likely to do something about it than if we just hear about it.
as to hitting them hard, my understanding is that's exactly what they're doing, the problem is finding out who "they" are and _where_ they are. fighting terrorism & guerrillas has got to be the hardest thing you can do. they dont make themselves known & use the public as their shield and battleground. it's irresponsible, cowardly, and disgraceful.
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Otis
Needs a job
Captain Kickstand
Posts: 3028
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posted May 13, 2004 10:58 AM
You know I wish I were alive back in WWII when the country was together on fighting for a reason. While I'm certainly more angry than I think I've ever been over this beheading, I am so furious at Americans who think this is our fault and want to appease the terrorists I want to puke. But I digress, I wish not to make this a political thread as I am leaving for a week of fun and will NOT watch any TV, no newspapers, no talk radio, no nothing but ride, drink beer, knock on the door to the spirit world and smacktalk with my brothers, so I'm outta this thread.
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Ninjaman12R
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as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted May 13, 2004 11:03 AM
10-4 Chris....
I hear you loud and clear Chris!!!
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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zx12girl
Pro
Adrenaline Junkie
Posts: 1740
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posted May 13, 2004 02:38 PM
Well, I think that an eye for an eye is not such a bad approach and we do that right here in the USA. It is called the death sentence.......and those guys should be sitting on death row along with anyone else that could kill another human.....no matter what country they live in!!!
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Life is an adventure. Are you driving?
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted May 13, 2004 05:19 PM
 Edited By: redelk on 14 May 2004 11:12
Though our first reaction is to turn that area of Iraq into the world's largest glass topped coffee table, there are more discreet alternatives.
While in Afghanistan, the Russians had a similar problem of not only civilians, but military personal getting kidnapped and meeting the same fate. While the kidnappers were threatening to do the same to the remaining hostages, the KGB decided the best course of action was to actually turn the barbarism up a notch, per say. "turned up" to a point to where it would send a quite, but very clear message to anyone wishing to do such acts against another human being. The KGB went out and located the family of one of the radical leaders. Once these family members were safely in Russian custody, the were unceremoniously cut up in to small, yet easily identifiable pieces. Several of the body parts (enough to make it clear that it was the leader's family members and their condition was "final") were then packaged and delivered to the radical leader. Within 24 hours, all of the Russian hostages were released unharmed and safely returned to the nearest Russian base. From that point on, no Russian personnel, civilian or military, were taken hostage or harmed in any non-military conflict.
Do I suggest that the U.S. pursue a similar tact? Of course not. Yet it does not take a rocket scientist to realize that any type of negotiation, diplomacy, payment of money or withdrawal of troops would no do a single thing to insure the safe return of hostages held by those that kill in God's name. The greatest tool of a terrorist is fear. To get the maximum impact of there actions, it must be one of "shock and awe". The more "shock" the better. Mere violence falls far too short of a description. Even the term of barbarism pales when one imagines the final moment of that young man. Still, since all other methods of trying to put an end to such has miserably failed, has it come time that we stoop down to their level? Have we actually morally degenerated to point to where we would actually consider doing such to a man's family?
Better yet, ponder this. Is it better to bomb an area that is suspected to house these people and just accept the possibility of collateral damage (i.e. the deaths of innocents being used as shields)? War is ugly. Deaths that occur during war is ugly. Yet both are sad and obvious facts. What happened in Dresden, Nagasaki and Hiroshima resulted in the deaths of over a half million civilians who had little to no connection to the war efforts of their respective countries. Though tragic and even barbaric in some peoples' view, they were felt to be the best action to take to speed up the conclusion of WWII. Right or wrong. It did accomplish what it was intended to do. Maybe we might need to rethink how we address these terrorist issues as well.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted May 14, 2004 09:43 AM
Translation of statement made prior to Nick Berg's death.
Nation of Islam. Tidings of dawn and winds of victory have begun for God has honored us with roaring victory in Falluja.
Nation of Islam. Is there any excuse left to sit idly by? And how can free Muslims sleep soundly as they see Islam being slaughtered, honor bleeding, photographs of shame and reports of Satanic degradation of the people of Islam, men and women, in Abu Ghraib prison?
Where is the care, fervor and rage for the faith of God, where is the concern for the sanctities of Muslims and where is the revenge for the honor of Muslims in the crusader prisons?
As for you Islamic scholars, you will answer to God. Do you not see ... the Muslim youth who humiliated the greatest power in history, cut off its nose and shattered its arrogance.
Do you not see that it is time for you to learn from them the meanings of responsibility and sacrifice. Until when shall you remain like women, excelling only in ... wailing and crying?
One person pleads with the free of the world, another with (U.N. Secretary-General) Kofi Annan, a third asks for help from (Arab League Secretary-General) Amr Moussa and a fourth calls for peaceful demonstrations as if they never heard God's order for the Prophet (Mohammad) to rally the faithful to fight.
Have you not had your fill of the war of conferences and battle of words? Is it not time for you to take the path of jihad and carry the sword of the Prophet of prophets? We ask you not to condemn what we will do just to please the Americans.
The Prophet, the most merciful, ordered (his army) to strike the necks of some prisoners in Badr (battle) and to kill them ... And he set a good example for us.
As for you Bush, dog of the Christians, anticipate what will harm you and difficult days. You and your soldiers will regret the day you stepped foot in Iraq and dared to violate Muslims.
A message to the traitorous agent (Pakistani President) Pervez Musharraf: We tell him that we wait eagerly to receive your soldiers and, by God, we will demand them before the Americans and avenge the blood of our brothers in (Afghanistan).
As for you, mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the American administration to exchange this prisoner for some prisoners in Abu Ghraib, but they refused.
We tell you that the honor of Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and other (prisons) are more noble than blood and lives.
And you will only get shroud after shroud and coffin after coffin slaughtered in this manner."
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21895
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posted May 14, 2004 09:50 AM
had an intersting discussion with a friend of mine from the middle east (happens to be a member sof this site as well)... he felt that the opnly way to solve the situation was to kill all of them.. he said they're all so totally fucked up from everything that they are way way beyond ever being able to be "normal" again.
also he said that people here have to understand how much someone would have had to have "lost" to be so angry and full of rage to cut someone's head off... interesting.. hard for me, living here in Canada in a totally peaceful environment to try to imagine being so enraged.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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Ninjaman12R
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as a Deal's Gap tour guide.
Posts: 4767
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posted May 14, 2004 09:58 AM
I just hate the fact that anything like this is even possible, much less actually happening.
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What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.
Sheriff Buford T. Justice of TEXAS
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted May 14, 2004 10:59 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 14 May 2004 12:03
heavy-duty industrial-grade wood-chippers...Proudly Made In The USA...
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“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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ozzy
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posted May 14, 2004 05:43 PM
Thousands of years of fighting hasn't changed anything over in the desert. It is one of their most basic things, like eating and shitting. It isn't going to stop, unless all of them are dead. Short of that the fighting and the hate will continue.
We should have stayed out of the desert some 60 years ago, and let them all kill each other off.
Isolation is our best option imho. The 3rd world cannot afford to not do commerce with the US, and we can have it on our terms if we use the same trade techniques they use with us. They want to eat, pay bastids, pay. No free anything to anyone abroad.
Dam I am hot as hell!
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted May 14, 2004 09:02 PM
redelk,thank you for that translation, i was hoping someone had done it. granted i've been to annoyed witht he situation to even look for it.
but again thanks.
we cannot stoop to their level, i don't think there are animals like that in american society (granted, we could turn our death-row prison inmates onthem....but i'd say the worst that we have created and caged in prison would pale to those beings (won't even call them people))
however
if we stand by and do nothing to contain or end their power hold, we ARE accountable for failing to stop it. we KNOW who at least one of them is. if we don't speed his way to justice, and he incites his followers to do more acts like that, we are responsible for those actions KNOWING full well he will do that sort of thing.
enraged? hardly. i think mad is the right term, but not mad as in angry, but mad as in stark, raving.
isolation gains us nothing. we should have learned that in WWI and WWII. isolationism leads to worse things than being "hated" (if you believe the news media's take on the issue)
the 3rd world deifnately cannot afford to not do commerce with the US
by same token, we really cannot afford to close them all out and NOT do the commerce ourselves. like it or not our economy is tied to world economy, and that is tied to the whole of the nations that make up the world.
i do agree that we need to stop just forking cash over to those people that showblatant disregard for freedom and life itself. screw them, if they don't want to behelpful, why should we continue to try to bribe them with money they want with no intention of returning anything useful.
  
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jonwright
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Posts: 2416
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posted May 15, 2004 09:36 PM
Okay - so now I've actually seen the video.
Since in college my nickname was "Devil's Advocate" allow me to continue in my usual inquisitive role.
So, naturally, I have a couple of questions:
1. Why are the time stamps in the video non-linear AND with a big gap?
2. Why doesn't a man getting his throat slit NOT put up any kind of fight? I mean, there is no squirming or anything. Maybe I'm just callous, but I'd think that you'd have to put up some kind of fight - his shoulders aren't even flexing. What about legs kicking? Thighs? Abdomen muscles? I mean, there is NO movement. Natural reaction to pain is to flinch, or withdraw, no? Did he just give up all together?
Lemme ask you guys something: Any of you deer hunters ever slit the throat of a wounded deer suffering a bad shot? Bet you only do that once.
3. Anybody still pissed about Daniel Pearl? Who the hell is that? That's what I thought.
All you fuckers will forget this shit in approximately two weeks. Then it's on to the next episode of American Idol or Survivor.
Or, if not, what's different about 'this time' and what are you going to do about it?
Show up at the ballot box *this* time? Join the military? Shoot a towel head that lives down the street? Put a useless note in your blog? Bitch to your friend? Join the local KKK (c'mon - they hate everyone not white and they are so ANGRY! They are going to so SOMETHING someday....)?
We're all just typical Americans. Stupid and in front of the fuckin' tube believing whatever is presented before us.
Goddam cynicism has me by the balls. I guess I'm so paranoid that I don't believe ANYBODY's story. I don't believe YOU, either. So don't even try.
What we see is what people WANT us to see (whether it's the US Army Psyops, NSA, Rupert Murdoch, or Al Queida for that matter). That video was created for someone's consumption in order to create a reation. Who? Yours or an Afghan hiding in a cave?
Where in the FUCK would an Afghan hiding in a cave download the video and share it with his friends? After a shopping spree where he loaded up his credit card at Best Buy at Kandahar via sattelite internet connection? (Oh, by the way - who owns most of the satellites in the world?)
The pics at Abu Gharib? Why would someone in the military agree to pics like that? I don't know about you, but pics of me holding a leish on a naked prisoner....wouldn't you think that would get OUT somehow? A secret is something you tell only to ONE other friend but pics are forever.
Are people (those being photographed at the jail) really that stupid to think that wouldn't be evidence for a trail at some date? Wouldn't you just have to think it would get out somehow?
Now. Let's put typical marketing at work and deconstruct everything:
1. Who's your target audience?
2. What reaction are you trying to get from the consumer?
3. How do you identify with your target audience?
4. How do you connect with your target audience?
5. What call to action do you incite in your target audience?
6. How do you ensure your message will be remembered?
You fuckers take these questions to any bag of chips and you'll see what I mean.
Then again. Maybe I've had a bit too much whiskey and time on my hands.
Then again, maybe not.
Oh, by the way. The Japanese seem to have gotten over the A-bomb.
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jonwright
Needs a job
Posts: 2416
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posted May 15, 2004 09:37 PM
Well, there goes my presidential bid. Guess I won't get the nomination after all.
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slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
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posted May 16, 2004 07:07 AM
yes it's all a big conspiracy, the guy was killed off to get tv ratings. thanks for clearing that up for us!
but you have made a very valid point about america's attention span. the dumbing down of america has been going on for years and years now. we have reached point where they are reducing graduation requirements in government schools so that people can graduate and be even less useful as citizens, all in a bid to get them on the welfare rolls and on the government handout list. every person that is on the government's welfare system is an almost 100% gauranteed democrat vote ;P
(a little cynicism in return ;P )
seriously though, we DO have a severe problem here, noone wants to do any research. everyone seems to want everything handed to them on a silver platter, with the words of outrage they are supposed to say printed around hte outside edge of the plate.
as far as fighting back or anything, who knows, i am not watching that part of the video to offer any sort of opinion on that. they said he was screaming and such, so who can tell.
maybe it was a GW Bush conspiracy to get reelected....
as for the prison pictures, i think it was just a bunch of stupid kids. bored and unsupervised. how many people do you know that take stupid and foolish pictures doing stupid and foolish things? even pictures/video of incriminating things. BUT i think that they took those pictures (especially of the woman holding the leash with the male iraqi) for use IN the prison to make the prisoners see that they were being held and controlled by a woman
to get the perspective, women are pretty much nothing in islamic countries. they have pretty much one use and that is to produce babies. not much else. (while we found hte taliban anti-women rules to be harsh, it is normal and customary in that culture)
to have a woman show ANY domination or anything BUT subservience to a man is prime insult. wrong... so inthis case the woman holding the leash on the iraqi is about the largest form of humiliation that you can put a muslim through.
so that one shot i think i can almost understand the target audience and the reaction.
whether those kids were that sophisticated or not is another story, just a theory on that particular shot.
the rest, i can't say. anyone stupid enough to be caught on film doing something like that deserves every bit of what they get. anybody dumb enough to actually POSE for those gets even less sympathy
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DaCourtJester
Parking Attendant
Posts: 28
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posted May 19, 2004 11:51 PM
THE WORLD'S LARGEST SLIP AND SLIDE COMES TO MIND....JUST ADD WATER
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