posted April 06, 2004 03:49 PM
Edited By: VincentHill on 6 Apr 2004 16:51
Case Studs (Not Bolts)! The DIfference! I asked a good friend is he knew if anyone was making Case "STUDS" for the ZX12 cases. Does anyone understand that I am looking for the rods that are threaded at both ends? That one end is permantely screwed into the case and when you put the other half of the case together, that you use "NUTS" and washers to secure the cases? (Like the Old 2 stroke cases!)
To me, the ZX12 top end and bottom end uses "Bolts" a Rod that has threads at one end and a Hex at the other end. My thinking is, that if APE is making "Studs" for the top end, and this resists the lifting of the cylinders better than the Stock Bolts, then I would be better off using some "STUDS" in the case to stop the crank and transmission from Walking around.
If I have finally "Communicated" Does anyone (Doug Meyer or Ray? Rob?) know where I can get some "STUDS" for my cases? I want 2 sets.
I am not angry, just extremely fustrated ____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
posted April 06, 2004 04:38 PM
I've never seen and studs that hold the two case halves together (ZX-12)for sale. I hope you find some.You may have to get them custom made?
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways- Body thoroughly used up, totally worn out...Screaming "WOO HOO, What a Ride !!!"
posted April 07, 2004 05:33 AM
There is a company in Michigan called "RaceWare". The make the Studs for Porsche Engines. The clamping pressure along with the expansion of an all aluminum engine are taken into account. I am looking at them for the Top end studs. They are better than even the bolts Porsche makes because they are more corrission resistant (Something to think about dealing with "SALT"!)
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
posted April 07, 2004 06:59 AM
Edited By: dougmeyer on 7 Apr 2004 15:48
Vincent,
Although the use of studs at the cylinder is not a bad idea for extreme applications (i.e., over 400hp), their use on the cases would be pretty much a waste of time. THe case studs simply are not loaded enough to require studs. One of the main reasons studs are used is that if the application requires frequent disassembly, the portion of the threaded fastener that goes into the aluminum case is not disturbed and the threads remain tight and undisturbed. Hopefully this frequent disassembly is not a factor in your cases! As regards the superior clamping ability of studs, it arises primarily from the more predictable friction at the threads between the nut and stud. Rather than having a steel stud turning in an aluminum case you have a precision thread in the nut turning on an equally precision thread on the stud. When proper lubrication and a hardened washer is used, the resulting stretch and clamping force is more predictable and, due to the better materials used, can be greater. Also the torque required to achieve the stretch is more consistent because you are not twisting the entire length of the bolt and only measuring the force necessary to achieve the desired stretch without including the force to twist the bolt. Regarding the correct stetch, have a look at a precision stud sometime and you'll notice that they are usually "waisted", that is athey have a smaller diameter between the threaded portions. Many people incorrectly assume that this is for weight control. It is not. THe diameter is to give the stud a more precise stretch (which yields clamping force).
Doug
posted April 07, 2004 07:08 AM
Doug you really are one of the smartest engine/motorcycle guys I have ever met! Thanks for all of your information!
Mad Mike
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200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
posted April 07, 2004 08:18 AM
Agreed, About everything, and even the bolts are waisted for the same reason which are used in the 11's and 12's. Yes, I plan to be taking the engine apart a lot more than I want to and "Know" that the ware of the case threads is a Major problem. I hope to get a set of top bolts and send to them for analysis and get a few sets for myself and a copule of other people that have expressed interest. Porsche used a "Divilar" stud which was made out of metal that had very similar expansion properties like aluminum but had problems with corrossion problems that weakened them.
Harry, I know that you have a few spare engines and would like to know if you have a complete set of Top end bolts I could borrow for examination and duplication into studs. Please let me know ASAP.
Doug, please also realize that eventually, I plan to look at closer to 500 HP for my bike and do not want to come up short anywhere (Case or Top end). I remember needing to change the case bolts and studs on my old 1015 engine around the countershaft bearing from 6 to 8 MM Bolts and went to stronger studs for the head and cylinder when the stresses were lifting the cylinders and pushing out the base gasket and leaking oil all over my bike during long races like Daytona.
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
posted April 07, 2004 01:06 PM
Y2K, The only bolts I know the "Stretch" on are the Rod Bolts because I spent a "Lot" of time oiling and using a Micrometer to make sure I got the correct stretch length. For the Head Bolts, I plan to "Send" them to Raceware and let them test the bolts and make a few sets that will do the job for me.
I think of the Studs and Bolts like extremely limited springs. The studs I want will be just a little stronger spring to handle the extra cylinder pressures generated by the NOS and later Turbo. I also do not have a tool that I could use to torque the bolts to the proper length anyway (Except for the shorter Rod Bolts. Thanks, Y2K
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
posted April 07, 2004 04:45 PM
Purchase from "WHO"? Made by "Who"? When I get ready to put in the case studs, I will still need to get some made, so my thinking is, get them all at the same place. I have "Over Engineered" everything I have ever made to go fast.
Rob North made a great frame for me and I broke several of the braces and bent his modified swingarm. The he made an arm out of .080 Chromolly Plate, I never had another problem with the arm. He doubbled the size of his braces and had no trouble out of them. Race Shops like where you are, Make, Test and Break and then make just enough stronger (For weight considerations). I do not have "Weight" considerations! One day I will get people to understand that the private racer does not have the tools or time to do this type of testing and must make it a lot stronger than the factory and race shop just to avoid the problem of under Engineered parts. We are just in different worlds, Mine will always be slower but cost less and yours will always be faster and a lot more expensive!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
posted April 07, 2004 09:52 PM
On the contrary Vincent, parts that we choose to use, we use because they work properly and do not fail. Connecting rods for an example, we use stock ZX-12 rods. They work properly and do not break. We don't need to put in new ones throughout the season. No need to re-engineer. We use stock case bolts. They are in the engine for it's life. In fact, if a case set may get damaged they may get re-used. They are not over stressed, and if used properly they don't cause any trouble. Cylinder bolts are changed to studs for the reasons I cited above. APE makes a good stud, it works properly and doesn't fail. No need for heroics. Just buy a set and put 'em in. Only trying to save you some grief here, my friend.
Doug
posted April 08, 2004 06:40 AM
DM, if you say that APE Studs are OK for your 500 HP Turbo, that is good enough for me period. Since you state that in the same engine, that the cases have not been over stressed in that same set up (and used much harder than I ever plan), then I am fine here also.
Like I state all of the time about being Poor, I have found that "Not" Spending the money to make things right always cost more and usually a "Lot" more. I know that one of the reasons the ZX12 cost so much money was they spent it on the engine using better rods, Crank and Pistons. What you have just said bears that out. Thank you!
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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posted April 06, 2004 03:49 PM
Edited By: 
