supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted March 05, 2004 01:33 PM
KCadby, anyone!! Will degreeing my cams help with hot starting my Stroker?
I have an 02 muzzy Stroker motor in my 12R. I had the battery checked and it is perfectly fine. I cannot start my bike when it is hot. However when I bypass my battery and use my cars it is the same. The bike starts great when its cold. It takes my battery and a jump starter (battery pack) to start it when its hot. Everyone says this is due to my compression.
Can anyone tell me for sure that if I get my cams degreed it will fix the problem. They are at stock settings right now.
Thanks!!
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
  
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MadMike
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posted March 05, 2004 02:15 PM
I never have a problem starting mine, have you looked into your starter? or retarding your timing at 0. also I believe that entropy had a starter clutch go bad....
Mad Mike
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johnnycheese
Pro
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posted March 05, 2004 08:44 PM
quote:
I have an 02 muzzy Stroker motor in my 12R. I had the battery checked and it is perfectly fine. I cannot start my bike when it is hot. However when I bypass my battery and use my cars it is the same. The bike starts great when its cold. It takes my battery and a jump starter (battery pack) to start it when its hot. Everyone says this is due to my compression.
Can anyone tell me for sure that if I get my cams degreed it will fix the problem. They are at stock settings right now.
Thanks!!
so what was your compression ratio not the one stamp on the box but for real number?
lobe center is only going to help so much.
Thank you Entropy and Doug
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entropy
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posted March 06, 2004 12:01 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 6 Mar 2004 00:04
ahhhhh my favorite subject...
1st, like Johnnycheese says, find out what yr CR is. If you don't wanna open yr motor up, at least get a good cold cranking pressure measurement for 2 cylinders (eh JC?). If its 230-240psi+/- or less you oughta be able to fiddle with stuff and get good hot starting. MM doesn't have hot starting issues, so it can be done and he still has great mph with his TFA.
For me, "fiddling with stuff" means:
1. make sure the starter armature & brushes are clean; pretty easy to pull the starter & do it
2. make sure battery cables are good, terminals are clean. 4 gage is better
3. make sure battery is good; FBG or equivalent battery is stronger than OEM
4. make sure ign adv is 0 at low rpm
5. as a last resort, take intake cam setting higher; mine is 107 now
After a year of hot starting problems, detonation, internal damage, etc, Cheeseman found that my CR was MUCH higher than I thought. Cheeseman put my 1427 down to 14.2 and its running like a champ, no hard starting issues!!!!!! However, I do have a mojo battery, 4 ga cables, 107/110 cam setting, newish starter, new starter clutch.
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kcadby
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posted March 06, 2004 09:18 AM
What entropy said...
Retarding intake cam will lower cranking comp...
Do EVERYTHING that he says...
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted March 06, 2004 03:39 PM
its just weird because I checked the battery and it was good. I can start the bike cold but I have to use a jumper to start it when it is hot. I did not have this problem with the first stroker motor I had in this bike. Therefore I cant see the starter, wiring, and leads to be the problem.
If I replace the battery with a stronger one will that help? WHich one should I get?
Ing advance is actually retarded at 0 for helping hot starts. Just weird that I didnt have this issue before and now I do.
I just think that its hard to believe that just degreeing cams will fix the problem.
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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kcadby
Pro
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posted March 06, 2004 07:25 PM
It won't...
Like Karl said...#5 "as a last resort"...
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entropy
Moderator
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posted March 07, 2004 05:30 AM
Edited By: entropy on 7 Mar 2004 05:38
supraman,
Do yrself a favor and check the cold cranking pressure of yr motor of both outside cylinders (easier to get at).
I won't go into the complete saga of my motor, but on one of my builds it was put together with new stroker parts and I THOUGHT it had a reasonable CR; hey, I did nothing exotic, eh? What could be different? It started real hard when hot so that's why I did all that stuff above, but I thought hard hot starting came with the territory. I had the compression pressure measured, and I THOUGHT 255-260psi was normal and also came with the territory.
Since I THOUGHT it had normal CR, i advanced the ign timing and ran Nutec. It ran fine at the drags, but after 3 passes at the Texas Mile, it seemed like it had blown a headgasket, so the Cheeseman tore it down and yep the headgasket was blown.
Very much worse, 3 pistons showed clear evidence of detonation, 2 of the wrist pins had slotted the piston bosses, sm end of rods were loose, all apparently from detonation. Result: all new pistons, new rods, new rod & main bearings, R&Reface all valves, flatten/deck the head & block... $$$$$$ (even at Cheeseman's popular prices). But this time we measured/calculated the CR with a buret and then brought the CR DOWN to 14.2 by using base gaskets/base spacer combo. ZERO hot starting problems now.
I am NOT saying you necessarily have excessive compression, I am just saying that you really should check it...
PS: why check 2 cylinders??? that's another story...
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psycho1122
Pro
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posted March 07, 2004 07:15 AM
My 1270 runs 230 p.s.i. a hole cold. The CR Ratio is 13.8-1. With cam timing at 105.5 in. / 100 ex. and Timing set at +2.5, Hot starting is NOT a problem!!
Detonation is also not a problem. I run 91 pump exclusively. This is due to having my A/F Ratio at 12.7-1.
entropy; Detonation really as cost you some $$! I am curious what your A/F ratio was on this engine and what dyno you tuned on. THANKS!
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entropy
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posted March 07, 2004 08:27 AM
Edited By: entropy on 7 Mar 2004 08:32
psycho
i WAS setting my A/F at 13:1, have subsequently gone down to 12:7-12.8:1. Cheeseman has a DJ250 and he is anal (meant as a compliment, JC  ) about getting the A/F "right"). My timing is +5 at WOT.
Your CR of 13.8/230psi jives well with my 14.2/235-240psi. This is good.
My A/F was tuned when temps were cold (55-65F), so I guess its getting close to the time to make the 3hr trip to the Cheeseman's to re-tune the A/F for Houston's sweltering, temperature soaring, humidity dripping, mosquito buzzing summer.
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ra12r
Zone Head
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posted March 07, 2004 06:40 PM
Psycho, 1270 don't have that problem. I had a 1270 and it was like stock. But, it also doesn't make the power like a stroker either. So i would say you are comparing apples to oranges.
Supra, try running two batteries and make the starter turn off of 24V. I have been using two batteries for more cranking amps, but i am going to go to the 24V system. I had my starter checked at a starter rebuild place and he said all he could do was clean it cause everything was fine. A acid filled battery is not enough! FBG gell cell or a comparable gel cell is neccessary. I have that now plus another battery. Also check to make sure your alternator is charging correctly. That was one of my problems!
Which block do you have??
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
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posted March 07, 2004 07:43 PM
Thanks to all of you guys. I guess I have some work to do.
RA: I have the Muzzys Stroker kit for the 02 Model.
I really dont want to run 2 batteries because I dont have room for another one. I just want this hot start to go away. It is almost time to start riding and I want to be able to get on it and go!!!
I am almost tempted to let this thing go cheap and get a new 10R. I am trying to do some track days now anyways. If it were not for the bike being immaculate and done right I probably would. It is such a beautiful bike and the hot start is the only problems I have with it. It is such a beast as far as power goes. Truly unbelievable.
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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supraman95mb
Expert Class
Posts: 212
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posted March 07, 2004 08:21 PM
Am I reading the comparison between the FBG battery and the stock Yuasa correctly!!!
Yuasa:
1.4 Amp
220 CCA
FBG
70 Amp
545 CCA
Is it possible for this FBG to have that many more amps and CCa's? Geez this may be the ticket!! There are not any dimension specs on the FBG on their website. Will it fit my 12? Any modifications needed?
A sincere thanks to you all. I really appreciate your help here. Truly a good group of guys with alot of knowledge!!
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02 Stroked 12R
95 Supra Single Turbo 750+ hp
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Mika14R
Novice Class
Posts: 50
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posted March 07, 2004 10:16 PM
check your starter motor.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted March 07, 2004 11:39 PM
with a full charge FBG has 545cca for 5 sec, then it drops to 270+/-. It will fit into the 12's battery box, but you have to mod the tray. Not a big deal, but not plug n' play either.
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psycho1122
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posted March 08, 2004 07:55 AM
Edited By: psycho1122 on 8 Mar 2004 07:59
entropy; Have your tuner run your bike in the highest gear possible, this will allow the sniffer more time to obtain accurate info. Also, I have seen many, many maps made on DJ250's that are too lean. Check w/ mrsantafe on this board......He made shure his tuner set his a/f to 12.7-1 and when we rechecked it out here on the MJP it was consistantly at 13.2-1 !!!
In addition...Once you have a SOLID base map in your PC, your engine management system will properly adjust for changing conditions including Ram-Air.
ra12r...My 1270 is very close to many larger displacement engines.
202.5 h.p. 114 ft. lbs. 
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Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
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posted March 11, 2004 06:35 AM
Some times this happens when the babic bearings are damaged.
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ra12r
Zone Head
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posted March 11, 2004 07:56 AM
Marcos, I believe you may have touch on a overlooked truth! I can safely say that my starting problems also began when my bearing problems began.
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Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
Posts: 568
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posted March 11, 2004 08:07 AM
ra12r. From I have seen, when bikes start to have problems starting the bearings have problems. I havent seen engines here in DR so modified but as a rule of thumb, when that happens sell your bike FAST.
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johnnycheese
Pro
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posted March 11, 2004 09:21 AM
quote:
entropy; Have your tuner run your bike in the highest gear possible, this will allow the sniffer more time to obtain accurate info. Also, I have seen many, many maps made on DJ250's that are too lean. Check w/ mrsantafe on this board......He made shure his tuner set his a/f to 12.7-1 and when we rechecked it out here on the MJP it was consistantly at 13.2-1 !!!
In addition...Once you have a SOLID base map in your PC, your engine management system will properly adjust for changing conditions including Ram-Air.
ra12r...My 1270 is very close to many larger displacement engines.
202.5 h.p. 114 ft. lbs.
I even go one better than that I put them under a braking load. same bike made 111 torque and then after mapping it it with the load way I do it was 117 (VTX1800) I learned what you are talking about on my Boost bike.
The only thing the 12 doesn't do is humidity that stuff is awful here
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kcadby
Pro
Posts: 1733
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posted March 11, 2004 07:23 PM
The "Tunning Link" LOADS the motor AND runs it through the RPMs SLOWLY (relatively) which DOES map the bikes better
I map 100% throttle "in the 12s" A/F also...
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Johnnycheese
Pro
Posts: 1008
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posted March 11, 2004 08:40 PM
quote:
The "Tunning Link" LOADS the motor AND runs it through the RPMs SLOWLY (relatively) which DOES map the bikes better
I map 100% throttle "in the 12s" A/F also...
not as good as the way I have found that is why I wasn't going to pay Dyno Jet $1500.00 a year for that BS software
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted March 12, 2004 08:00 PM
Mr. Cheese...I hear ya!! I do think that mean air temp in the airbox is determined by relative humidity. The Air Intake Temp. Sensor should compensate for humidity........for example; On a dry day...wet yourself down and go for a run, how do you feel?! COLD! Basically, moisture affects mean air temp and your sensor will adjust for it.
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