posted February 01, 2004 05:15 PM
How much NOS On Stock 12 Pistons? We all know that 50 to 60 is safe. It also appears that Kawasaki uses a "Forged" Piston. We know that "ALL" Forged Pistons are not the same! The dome on the 12 piston must be thinner and can take less heat than a piston designed for NOS. We also know that the thickness and placement of the rings has a lot to do with the removal or control of heat. Saying all of this, has anyone tried a 100 shot and hadt the pistons live to tell the tail?
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
posted February 01, 2004 08:14 PM
because.......hehe Just because DAMMIT!
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Official Charter Member of the RIDERS OF KAWASAKI MEMBERSHIP REVOCATION CLUB
Also a BadAss Internet Forum Moderator 4 Hire!! Come at me brah!
posted February 01, 2004 08:59 PM
Detonation and preignition are two killers of pistons. At the very least the wet shot will provide extra fuel to cool the charge and reduce (or eliminate) detonation. The book "Motorcycle Supercharging, Turbocharging and Nitrous Oxide" states that a guy by the name of Sir Harry Ricardo did a bunch of testing in the 1930's and found that adding up to 60% more fuel to a detonating engine will eliminate the detonation. Nitrous oxide doesn't behave any differently in terms of detonation. If the engine begins to knock as a result of the colliding flame fronts in the combustion chambers, something has to be done. You can retard the timing (recommended for nitrous anyways), lower the compression, change the piston dome shape, add water/alcohol or fuel to cool the chamber.
I have no experience using a dry nitrous system, but really have my doubts on the margin of safety. The idea of using the ECU to compensate for intake air temp charges as a result of the change of state of the liquid N2O freaks me out...especially considering the location of the air temp sensors on our bikes. I will be installing N2O on my bike in the future (not my first bike with nitrous, BTW), but it will be a wet shot.
posted February 01, 2004 10:19 PM
Stock pistons are cast,not forged like the Busa's or GSXR'S.I ran a 2 stage dry setup(70hp total) for a season and then bought a set of mtc forged.They looked exactly the same as stock design except they were forged.For some reason(i think fuel pump was getting weak)the new pistons never made it till end of season before burning through to the first ring.Next time I'm not changing out the stock pistons till i have to!!
posted February 01, 2004 11:35 PM
I'm very interested in this question also.
I have seen back to back dyno runs of 40 HP dry shots on '00 and '02 models showing real time a/f ratios.
For whatever reason the '00 bike "held" a desirable a/f curve to the end of the rev range whilst the (my) '02 started to lean out, slightly but notable.
Both bikes had a similar setup, nos spraying forward upstream of the airfilters, relying on the stock air temp sensor to do the deed.
Whilst on the dyno the '00 bike had it's jet drilled for a 56 HP shot and the a/f ratio when re-tested was maintained.
My setup no longer utilises the air temp sensor to inform the EFI that the air temp is lower, I override the temp sensor so that a signal consistant with 0 deg C is sent, same for the water temp sensor.
A Dyno / a/f ratio sniffer run to see the results is yet to happen but I'm hoping to be able to maintain a safe a/f ratio with that shot, maybe even be able to adjust the extra fuel delivery by adjusting the simulated temperature but that could be further away.
If the fuel delivery system is capable of delivering 300HP (on '02 model) I will do it dry thanks very much, so many more things can go wrong with a wet system, and maintaining good a/f ratios is tough with progressive delivery, is so much more iffy.
Reduced fuel flow out of 1 of your wet foggers = trouble.
Just tell the fuel injectors what to do, at least they work as a team?
Back to the thread, I hope my '02 stock pistons can handle 100HP, that's where I want to go.
____________
NOS Rob
'02 Blue ZX12R NOS and extensions
'99 NOS stretched Bandit 1200S
Needs a life
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posted February 02, 2004 06:23 AM
Notice that I said they weren't recommended even with a wet system. Horsepower equals heat, plain and simple. You stuff a bigger bang into the same volume, you get more heat. But sounds like the forged pistons out there aren't doing that much better, so wtf, go for it! ____________
82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted February 02, 2004 06:47 AM
As someone said, in the silver book, it states that the (At least the 2000 ZX12R) has forged pistons. I really was looking at the MTC FOrged pistons as opposed to JE because looking at the MTC, they look better made. You have now Scared me (a little)?
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
quote:Wet's easier because the A/F mixture is always perfect!
Again...in a properly configured dry setup..the A/F mixture is exactly what it would be in a properly configured wet setup.
You still have to add the appropriate amount of fuel for either configuration....the only difference between wet vs dry is how the fuel is introduced. One may perhaps be EASIER to setup than the other..but certainly not "safer".
____________
Do not taunt happy fun ball!
quote:I'm very interested in this question also.
I have seen back to back dyno runs of 40 HP dry shots on '00 and '02 models showing real time a/f ratios.
For whatever reason the '00 bike "held" a desirable a/f curve to the end of the rev range whilst the (my) '02 started to lean out, slightly but notable.
Both bikes had a similar setup, nos spraying forward upstream of the airfilters, relying on the stock air temp sensor to do the deed.
Whilst on the dyno the '00 bike had it's jet drilled for a 56 HP shot and the a/f ratio when re-tested was maintained.
My setup no longer utilises the air temp sensor to inform the EFI that the air temp is lower, I override the temp sensor so that a signal consistant with 0 deg C is sent, same for the water temp sensor.
A Dyno / a/f ratio sniffer run to see the results is yet to happen but I'm hoping to be able to maintain a safe a/f ratio with that shot, maybe even be able to adjust the extra fuel delivery by adjusting the simulated temperature but that could be further away.
If the fuel delivery system is capable of delivering 300HP (on '02 model) I will do it dry thanks very much, so many more things can go wrong with a wet system, and maintaining good a/f ratios is tough with progressive delivery, is so much more iffy.
Reduced fuel flow out of 1 of your wet foggers = trouble.
Just tell the fuel injectors what to do, at least they work as a team?
Back to the thread, I hope my '02 stock pistons can handle 100HP, that's where I want to go.
here is a good hint A/F on a dyno will be wrong if you do a pull it has to be done differently
____________
Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
quote:Means in the real world...the a/f will be leaner.
nope.... we all know about ram air
Dry is a pain in the arse to get right
____________
Builder and tuner of some of the fastest N.A. and P/A Hayabusas and ZX12 /14 in Texas
posted February 03, 2004 03:50 PM
Please elaborate about the "complete and utter bullshit". I have been told that the large amount of freed oxygen in the N2O will drive traditional "lambda" O2 sensors crazy, but will the tailpipe sniffer of a dyno react in the same way? If so how do you really tune for proper a/f ratios? Do you use plug colour as the indicator?
My big fear of dry N2O is the lack of fuel to counter the potential lean condition. Here is my understanding of dry N2O: the safe operation of the system relies on the change of state of the liquid N2O to create refrigeration, which will lower the airbox temperature and create a false rich situation as a result of the ECU interpreting the lowered air box temps as read by the Intake air temerature sensor. The gaseous N2O molecule, as it enters the combustion and is heated beyond 400F as a result of the beginning of the combustion event, cracks apart and turns into N2 and O2. The extra fuel from the interpreted data (it's all of a sudden -40F in the airbox ....or lower) and all of the freed O2 combine together and burn at, what......12 or 13:1.
I am well aware of the speed of the processors used in automotive and motorcycle ECU applications, AND I am also aware that dry nitrous has been around for quite some time, it just makes me nervous to rely on the preset tempertaure/fuel maps. Obviously it works, or there would be a pile of fried motors laying around and some very unahppy guys telling the world about it. Here's a question for anyone who wishes to answer: why does Muzzy sell a small, dry kit and a larger wet kit?
I think I know the answer.......no matter how cold the airbox gets, there is only so much fuel that the ECU can command to be added. There are two reasons for this: 1) since the system was never designed for this contingency, the ECU can only fire the quad drivers for the injectors at a maximum pulse width based on the fuel strategies' hard wired info. A power commander can be used to offset this, but it still leaves the second part of the equation.......2) injectors can only flow so much at a given pressure. I believe the number thrown around is 82cc. Increase the fuel pressure and this changes....but that is getting awfully complicated .
It looks to me that in Muzzy's opinion, 40HP is the maximum safe amount to add dry, and 70 HP is the max for wet.
posted February 03, 2004 04:29 PM
Edited By: your car is slow on 3 Feb 2004 16:30
I typed up a huge reply to this and got the fucking gay ass "your username doesnt match the person who posted this..yadda yadda"
Fuckit...wet is better..go waste your money ____________
Do not taunt happy fun ball!
posted February 03, 2004 04:34 PM
YCIS.. tested the A/F on a DJ250 vs a real time wideband setup (FJO) and tuned it "in the real world"..not guessing on a dyno.
I know his results suprised the hell out of me. I though for sure he was riding a greande. He's proven beyond a doubt you can go big on dry. ____________
Official Charter Member of the RIDERS OF KAWASAKI MEMBERSHIP REVOCATION CLUB
Also a BadAss Internet Forum Moderator 4 Hire!! Come at me brah!
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