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BIKELAND > FORUMS > VFR1200.com > Thread: Electric Motorcycle Racing Gains Legitimacy With Dedicated Series NEW TOPIC POST REPLY
Staff


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posted May 23, 2010 04:12 AM        Edited By: Staff on 23 May 2010 19:20
Electric Motorcycle Racing Gains Legitimacy With Dedicated Series



As part of last year's Isle of Man TT, electric street motorcycle racing got its first shot at a generally recognized event with the TTXGP. Now the sport solidifies its legitimacy with the TTXGP series, which just kicked off the season last weekend at Infineon in California. What's left to be seen is whether the series can gain an audience and how quickly the bikes can approach the performance of conventionally powered bikes.

Video above is Forbes' look at last year's TT debut.

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fish_antlers


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The Truth is Out There
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posted May 24, 2010 01:27 AM        
Electric zx14?
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?


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Wheelie


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Old Man
Posts: 6902
posted May 24, 2010 01:48 AM        
did she say competitive in street racing? lol

wee

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3000psi and falling


Zone Head
Posts: 848
posted May 24, 2010 04:22 AM        
What a joke, untill there is a iorn man type reactor to use, they are all just oversized electric razor wall mart bikes in my book. And as for the enviroment? Im sure those li-on or similar types are great for our enviroment after being tossed after a few dozen hard cycles or one over or under chargeing, or left in a improper charge state for to long, the list goes on and on... And where does all that energy come from? Well in CA, I do know that only about 10% of the energy is clean, renewable energy. The rest was coal, gas, ect.

Anyone els see the seen in the vid of the bike jumping? Kinda remindes me of Rod Kimble jumping his moped. Nice front wheel first landing.
____________
08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.

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KZScott


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high on speed
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posted May 24, 2010 12:13 PM        
electric with ram air?
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos

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3000psi and falling


Zone Head
Posts: 848
posted May 24, 2010 12:28 PM        
quote:
electric with ram air?

I would think its to cool the speed controller or other components.
____________
08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.

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fish_antlers


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posted May 24, 2010 02:28 PM        
I dont think it's a joke at all... should be cool to see what happens with this new technology.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?


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Obba


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posted May 24, 2010 05:08 PM        Edited By: Obba on 25 May 2010 07:11
The problem with having practical electric motorbikes is that they cannot store enough batteries on board - aka Current Battery Technology.

To have faster and more powerful motorbikes you (we), need a battery that has a high output per Kg and fast discharge rate.

A normal lead acid battery givers out (Don't quote me guys), has approx 32WattHours per kg.
Nickel Metal Hydride are at about 65wh/kg
Lithium Ion is good for 115 Wh/kg and Lithuim polymer is up to 140+

However, Alkaline is 1300 - but cannot discharge the power quick enough, where Lithium can.
Petrol is about 13,000wh/kg.
You would need a car with 500kilos of Lithuim Polymer batteries to give you three quarters the range of a 50ltr tank of gas (remembering that a four stroke engine is only about 20% efficent).
Some crowd at MIT in late 09 reckon that they could charge a car (no data on the size of battery though), battery in 5minutes.

The Tesla Roadster uses 6,831 lithium-ion batteries. I'm not making a comparison with the prior!

Obviously, in a car you might get away with sticking batteries everywhere. But on a motorbike you can't. You would need IMO, a different battery technology as in Wh per KG with good discharge rates and fast charging, than what we have today.

Lithuim doesn't cut it for motorbkes.

It's 'ok' for cars at the moment and power assisted bycicles. But as for gas vs batt for your zx14's - not yet

Well, if you read through all that, you're now much better educated than you were before


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zx-14lvr


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posted May 25, 2010 08:02 AM        
quote:
The problem with having practical electric motorbikes is that they cannot store enough batteries on board - aka Current Battery Technology.

To have faster and more powerful motorbikes you (we), need a battery that has a high output per Kg and fast discharge rate.

A normal lead acid battery givers out (Don't quote me guys), has approx 32WattHours per kg.
Nickel Metal Hydride are at about 65wh/kg
Lithium Ion is good for 115 Wh/kg and Lithuim polymer is up to 140+

However, Alkaline is 1300 - but cannot discharge the power quick enough, where Lithium can.
Petrol is about 13,000wh/kg.
You would need a car with 500kilos of Lithuim Polymer batteries to give you three quarters the range of a 50ltr tank of gas (remembering that a four stroke engine is only about 20% efficent).
Some crowd at MIT in late 09 reckon that they could charge a car (no data on the size of battery though), battery in 5minutes.

The Tesla Roadster uses 6,831 lithium-ion batteries. I'm not making a comparison with the prior!

Obviously, in a car you might get away with sticking batteries everywhere. But on a motorbike you can't. You would need IMO, a different battery technology as in Wh per KG with good discharge rates and fast charging, than what we have today.

Lithuim doesn't cut it for motorbkes.

It's 'ok' for cars at the moment and power assisted bycicles. But as for gas vs batt for your zx14's - not yet

Well, if you read through all that, you're now much better educated than you were before





huh?

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fish_antlers


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posted May 25, 2010 01:36 PM        Edited By: fish_antlers on 26 May 2010 04:46

____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?


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Obba


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posted May 26, 2010 07:13 AM        
The problem that all electric vehicles have (besides the below type), is that the electricity has to come from somewhere...

IE: Nuclear or Coal. Both have obvious issues. And also i doubt that the Electricity infrastructure could handle it anyway - nevermind massive increase in maintence costs.

The Honda FCX Clarity is IMO, the way we will all go and it will be fine to have an Electric Motorbike.

This car is currently only sold in America and i believe in Cal you have them running around already.

It's still Electric and Lithuim battery powered. Just that it gets its 'electricity' from Hydrogen - of which there is no shortage, ever.
And the by-product is water - and yes, you can drink the stuff dripping from the exhaust pipe!
Plus, the economy keeps its fuel stations, pumps, tankers, workers and so on.

However, Lithium Ion batterys have a finite life, and will need to be changed periodically.

The Lithium sharholders will be loving this one

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3000psi and falling


Zone Head
Posts: 848
posted May 26, 2010 07:41 AM        
quote "gets its 'electricity' from Hydrogen - of which there is no shortage" Its all a load of crap, Fact -Hydrogen does not exist naturally and so it must be extracted from other chemicals, such as by the electrolysis of water. Such processes requires very large amounts of external energy to accomplish. This is what you never hear about, everyone thinks hydrogen powered transportation is the answer, nope its just a load of crap.

I work in the alternivive energy field, Wind Turbines, hydro, solar, wave and tidal, all have major flaws and drawbacks. Fusion is our only real hope at free clean energy, but its still far beyond our reach, all attempts have used more energy than the reactor makes.

Untill then electric cars and bikes are not really the answer to the big problem. And last I heard a small honda hybrid has a total co2 footprint larger than a suburban from start (design) to finish (scrap yard).
____________
08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.

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Obba


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posted May 26, 2010 08:22 PM        
Hi, 3000psi, i was posting the 'general' feelings out there and putting it into laymans terms. But since ya wanna get inta that Fusion thang ... Well, that's a different ball game

All non geeks need to read no further....! I'ma typin, my beers here and it's gonna be a long one.

Hydrogen does occur naturally, it's in water.
However, you probably meant to say that Hydrogen - as a gas - does not occur naturally (on earth), which is correct. But there is enough Hydrogen in gas form in space to last a "Heck of along time - zillions of years..". Obviously, we can't get to yet due to cost wise.

You also correctly point out, that the financial cost together with co2 output to get hydrogen from its processing costs to the 'tank' is expensive in both ways.

You are also correct that Fusion is the ultimate answer and from my understanding, there is to be a "Firing up" of such a Fusion reactor this year at ITER. But all the 'experts' are saying that Fusion power (land based), is not going to be viable for 20-30 years.

Wind turbines are very costly, require maintenance and only last for approx lifetime and are not really cost effective. [I found this quickly through Google].
10kW system Costs $33,000.00
Wind available at full power 25% of the day, produces 60kWh's per day.
20 year life span, produces 438,000 kWh's over lifetime of system
60 kWh per day * 365 days per year = 21900 kWh per year
21900 kWh per year * 20 years = 438,000 kWh Lifetime
438,000 kWh * .075 per kWh = $32,850...

Probably Hydro is the most proven and reliable cost effective Electricity Generating system that i know of. The Chinese with the Seven Dams project and what the Russains are doing might be proof of that.

And don't get me started on Solar I have a lot of solar installed on our house, by myself.
I do not send back into the grid, i store in batteries and believe me it is not cost effective!
Australia would have to be one of he best places it the world (as Dr Suzuki said), to have solar. Now only since 2009+ are the government giving rebates for this.
Most panels arriving here are shit China stuff.
But still cheaper for the gov to offer these rebates than to spend more money on Grid upgrades and infratsructure. We have about the same land mass, but only 22million people.

Wave and Tidal, humm! Very expensive to install, but always there. I don't honestly know enough to comment really on that.
We had one close to us a few weeks ago that snaped one of its anchors. Recieved very little news coverage. I was suprised that most people i mentioned it too knew nothing about the fact we even had one, and in all honesty i didn't either.

But as per reply to the OP. Lithuim cars are a go, as they can carry enough batteries. But NO to bikes as per current power to weight ratios.

Hydrogen is about equal to pure battery power.
Unless the battery technology changes, then Hydrogen is going to win. As the costs (if eventually taken up and all cost comparisons are based on present day costings and fear mongers), will come down, then hydrogen will become IMO the next 'tank filling' thing.

However, Hydrogen power/weight per kilo is pretty much set in stone as far as physics goes. Battery technology is not.

I would pray and 'might' give my left testicle for a battery that can charge faster, give out more energy/time, weigh less and have infinite recharging cycles....
Unfortunately, for now Lithuim is the go for now, but has it has failings as listed in the previous post replies.

Hydrogen is constant, besides production costs. It's inside common water and gives out water. The eco fanboys (aka Voters), love that

There was a time (believe it or not), that there were more electirc cars on the road than petrol cars.

As for the co2 footprint being larger (do you mean a model of Honda Hybrid, or the Clarity itself?) . Could that be down to the use of composites and plastics etc and not down to the actual cost of the fuel cell system itself?

I was in socal, LA many years ago and i remember seeing electric refueling stations! And for that many years ago, it's clear to me it didn't take off...

But our 'Western society' is so engrained in going to a 'servo', that IF hydrogen (fuel cell), cars/bikes do take off, then there will not be so much of an impact as to the change of our life style for the normal mortals out there.
Plus, the power of the "water in - water out' theme will beat anything in todays tree hugging climate.

There is enough coal in Australia to last (us), anyway for well over 100 years.
There is enough Oil/Petroleum on the planet (with used and known deposits), for over well over 100 years.
The sand/oil mixes of Canada and the USA have (from what i have read), more oil stored than all the oil taken out and yet known, to exist! But it isn't (at the moment), financially viable to get it out.

Unless the Hydrogen/Lithuim fuel cell works ok, or some bright spark finds a new 'chemical elemental matrix' to make a battery out of, then we might be stuck with gasoline for a while yet.

Mark my words. The Energy people know full well (already), how and what the world will be moving onto next (China and India have a market that in $$$ you cannot conceptualise, to provide them with gasoline!).
There are much bigger players out there that decide what 'comes on line next". It is profitable for them to play one against the other, because 'we' buy.

The 'BIG PROBLEM' 3000psi in all this alternative energy saving hype and saving the planet is this:
Think about it. Do you NEED a zx14 to be happy with your wife, family and friends in regards to transportation and living in health?

The Germans (actually instigated by Adolf Hiltler), produced a car called the Volkswagon.
"Folks - Wagon". Mum and dad - Sorry you yanks Mom and Pappa, with 3 kids - no problem. Supurb reliability (for its day and ongoing), with its Porsche engine.

It's the only car we really need, and maybe the Honda CN400 for a bike.

All mentions and posts about the next gen power - as the OP - is all about going faster and more powerful.
If we really care about going "green and co2 etc", isn't all this an oxymoron?


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frEEk


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ummm... yeah
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posted May 28, 2010 05:00 PM        
Obba, IMO you make one very good point: the real problem is our psychological "need" for more/better stuff. The real solution would be for everyone to live in a self sustaining commune and not have any hobbies, just work all the time. But we aren't robots (yet) so it ain't happening.

You certain about the Alkaline power density number? If so, why do NiMH AAs hold more charge than an alkaline (if I'm not mistaken that is)?

On the hybrid CO2 footprint thing... wouldn't be too certain on that thing. The debunking articles I've read on that story are far, far more convincing than the original story.

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CraigChrist


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posted May 28, 2010 06:07 PM        
Yes, I need a zx14 to be happy with my wife. In fact, if it weren't for my zx14 I probably would have beaten the piss out of her a long time ago :P.
____________
60ft-------1.42
1/8th------5.97
mph-------119

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3000psi and falling


Zone Head
Posts: 848
posted May 29, 2010 02:09 AM        
quote:
Yes, I need a zx14 to be happy with my wife. In fact, if it weren't for my zx14 I probably would have beaten the piss out of her a long time ago :P.


That is hilarious! Some of my best times with my ex wife were on the 14, I couldnt here her.
____________
08 ZX14, 2010 Persimmon Red bodywork.
Flies pulled, 16-42, BMC street, 8" extensions, drag shock, cut pan, Cycle Concepts Drag Pack and springs, muzzy m14 w/ oval can, lowered, Shinco usoft rear, pcv with autotune, leightweight Shori 18ah battery, throttle meister. 500lbs at bandimeres scales with half tank of juice.

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Obba


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posted May 29, 2010 06:13 PM        
frEEk,
My bad. Made a typo. Didn't mean 1300. Meant 130, probably thinking about petrol at 1300.
But i thought under normal usage Nimh only gives out approx 60-70, as below.

--- just have go off and check..

This is in Howstuffworks:
"Here is a way to get a perspective on the energy density. A typical lithium-ion battery can store 150 watt-hours of electricity in 1 kilogram of battery. A NiMH (nickel-metal hydride) battery pack can store perhaps 100 watt-hours per kilogram, although 60 to 70 watt-hours might be more typical. A lead-acid battery can store only 25 watt-hours per kilogram".

Found in Allaboutbatteries.com. I have just highlighted the points in *.
Type Cost $ per Wh Wh/kg Joules/kg Wh/liter
Lead-acid $0.17 41 146,000 100
Alkaline long-life $0.19 ****110**** 400,000 320
Carbon-zinc $0.31 36 130,000 92
NiMH $0.99 ****** 95****** 340,000 300
NiCad $1.50 39 140,000 140

All this Co2 stuff is really confusing for most people of course - and i'm not an expert.

There was an Australian news report on the ETS [Emission Trading Scheme] on our 6:00pm news and a reporter was trolling around a car park in a shopping centre asking people what they thought ETS stood for.
Well, this reporter found a lady with kid in stroller/pram putting shopping bags in the back of her car. He asked her "What does the ETS mean to you"? Hopefully, no doubt to catch her out . Her immediate reply was this "Yes i know what ETS stands for, it means T.A.X".

But if we (the Western world), want to exist without petrol, then we have to move to a better
cleaner source of power that doesn't pollute - as much!


As for Hybrid/CO2 stuff. It is something that can be debated forever - unless you have the actual facts as in, material compounds and per and post production methods.

Fusion is the key. But as i said before, China and India are not going to be told. It's all very well for us to have had the 'industrial age' and be prepared to move on. But these massive 'coming on line' power houses are not going to do it - particulay since there is plenty of coal, oil and lng around for a long time and it is cheap, to them.

Sorry, got carried away
It's all about economy. Very little to do with CO2 emmisons. That's the marketing 'hype'.
The asian market is more than happy to let the 'Western' world do all the work in future clean technology - because we can afford it and are prepared to pay for it, they don't have to for 20-30 years at least.

I'm being called in to eat... The one who must be obeyed, and she has a great set of ti.. Ouch, ok, i'm comin.... alright No i wasn;t typin.. shit!!! stop lookin overr my shouldr....ok. Ok.





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frEEk


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ummm... yeah
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posted May 30, 2010 02:33 AM        
That's interesting on the Alkaline vs NiMH issue. They mention "long-life alkaline" so perhaps what I heard was modern (top end) NiMH) vs old, cheap alkaline. And perhaps a high capacity NiMH AA weighs more than the alkaline. Anyway, good info.

Quite right on the complex question of CO2 footprint. The "Dust to dust" report that this whole story was based on attempted to do that, and based on their calculations they of course got the "hummer uses less energy cost per mile than a prius". But from what I've read (including claimed bits of their calculations and claims), their facts/assumptions are seriously fudged (like the 100,000 mile Prius life bit, and the mention of the pollution output of the nickel factory from 20 years ago, not now). I do applaud soeone for taking on the challenge of giving a complete answer to the question, but sadly they are a marketing company and it shows who their clients must be.

I hear ya on the economic driver on all the CO2 stuff. Thus far I'm not entirely convinced on the reality or seriousness of the global warming theory (one way or the other), but conservation and the three Rs are always a good idea IMO, for reasons beyond climate change concerns. However, I do tend to think that those in power looked at the issues scientists brought to them and said "this will make us look good, and we can generate a shit-ton of taxes from it too, plus who knows, it may be a good thing". I rather doubt that "doing the right thing" is the primary motivator, more of a feel-good add-on. I do see some value/logic in the ETS/Carbon-trade thing, but it is a very flawed way to go about things. It's like saying "ok we'll kill one more hooker, but you have to promise to kill one less". The fact that you are "balancing" your "bad" by paying someone else to do one less "bad", doesn't necessarily improve the situation. If this really is such a catastrophic problem, they should simply choose to reduce their energy consumption at all costs, while encouraging others to do the same, but not tying your efforts to theirs.

I wonder, how many useless (ie. doesn't produce anything of use for consumption) jobs were created to administrate their carbon taxes? It's like having a human sitting in the toll booth in a parking lot. Wasted human effort.

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Obba


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posted May 30, 2010 06:36 PM        
The earth has gone through 4 cycles of warming up. Proven fact! No Problem.

We humans, as of now, could not survive one in reality. However, are we in for another starting now? I don't know.
These warming cycles last for 1000's if not millions of years of years at least. Who knows how accurate the temperature gauges of the past are good enough for us to judge facts on today.

I personally have an issue (with having lived in England for many years), with flowers that would only grow in March were now growing in February; for example. Nature is pretty good at knowing the balance. But nature only does what it does. But if the Earth is changing its cycle, so what?

I was sent an email about the actual Carbon Co2 layer stuff. I'll try and find it.... I'm not into conspiracy theorys too much (even though i do read them and do my own research over them in my spare time), but this Carbon layer email i was sent seems to have merit.

Here is what i was sent:
"A KILOMETRE OF ATMOSPHERE – WHY AN ETS IS NONSENSE
Imagine one kilometre of atmosphere that you want to clean up. For the sake of the discussion, imagine you could walk along it.
The first 770 metres are Nitrogen.
The next 210 metres are Oxygen.
That's 980 metres of the 1 kilometre.
Just 20 metres to go.
The next 10 metres are water vapour.
Just 10 metres left to go.
9 metres are argon.
1 metre left out of 1 kilometre.
A few gases make up the first bit of that last metre.
The last 38 centimetres of the kilometre - that's carbon dioxide.
A bit over one foot.
97% is produced by Mother Nature.
It's natural.

Out of our journey of one kilometre, there are just 12 millimetres left. About half an inch. Just over a centimetre.
That's the amount of carbon dioxide that global human activity puts into the atmosphere.
And of those 12 millimetres Australia puts in .18 of a millimetre.
Less than the thickness of a hair. Out of a kilometre.
As a hair is to a kilometre, so is Australia's contribution to what Mr Rudd calls Carbon Pollution".
FIN.

With the Co2 thing, i think that a lot of Scientists are 'finally' getting a platform to speak and get heard, If they are using the data to spread and prove doom and gloom, i'll keep my thoughts to myself.

Granted with my kids, i want a cleaner world. But (As i told everybody 10 years ago), wait for China and India).
I honestly don't think that the western world (General public), knows what it is in for with these two countries... They really don't.

If Obama, does really put up front the $$ and the ongoing support for his 'new technologies' program and is prepared to go for it as long as he is in power, then grats to him and the USA". However, it could all be political hype.

If the States and Eruope, can support their own economy with moving away from oil/coal/lng and yet compete with China and India (who are going to stay with the prior), then great, if they can create enough GDP inside themselves.


Thanks for the chat frEEk and the other feedbacks. I enjoy a good k/b get together.
But back to the ZX14 forum

And thus i digress: (as if i do, says my beautiful wife), who is stood over me again, telling me to get off the computer.... and no wordon her t....ts,,,











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