Greggy
Expert Class
Posts: 150
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posted December 23, 2011 06:09 PM
Speedo sensor & gearing question on the 14R
Appologies if this has been answered already, but does anyone know if the new 14R picks up its speedo reading from the front (drive) sprocket or from one or both wheel sensors?
I would have thought it would have been more sense for Kawasaki to use the ABS/Traction Control wheel sensors for speedo information and not use the drive sprocket, as that way no matter what gearing changes were made the speedo would remain (fairly) accurate.
Does the 2012 ZX-14R still need a speedo healer if someone wanted to change to a 16T front sprocket?
Greggy
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2012 ZX-14R ABS - Spark Black - Two Brothers V.A.L.E. Carbon slip ons P1X tips - Powerbronze DB screen.
1990 ZX-10 Ninja - Megacycle stainless steel mufflers - gear-sack rack - tinted screen.
  
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Wheelie
Needs a life
Old Man
Posts: 6902
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posted December 23, 2011 06:11 PM
quote:
Appologies if this has been answered already, but does anyone know if the new 14R picks up its speedo reading from the front (drive) sprocket or from one or both wheel sensors?
I would have thought it would have been more sense for Kawasaki to use the ABS/Traction Control wheel sensors for speedo information and not use the drive sprocket, as that way no matter what gearing changes were made the speedo would remain (fairly) accurate.
Does the 2012 ZX-14R still need a speedo healer if someone wanted to change to a 16T front sprocket?
Greggy
I hope not, but will know in a couple of days.
wee
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Seno
Pro
BANNED FOR LIFE!
Posts: 1230
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posted December 23, 2011 07:58 PM
I believe it does use the TC sensors, there is no pickup on the countershaft cover for 2012.. Not positive but I remember reading that gearing changes will not throw off the speedo.
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2012 Black 14R -> Completely done!
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Greggy
Expert Class
Posts: 150
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posted December 23, 2011 08:24 PM
Yeah I just found another post on this forum that seems to indicate the 14R gets its speedo information from the rear TC/ABS sensor...
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=64210
So that's yet another feature that makes the new 14R so awesome!
Greggy
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2012 ZX-14R ABS - Spark Black - Two Brothers V.A.L.E. Carbon slip ons P1X tips - Powerbronze DB screen.
1990 ZX-10 Ninja - Megacycle stainless steel mufflers - gear-sack rack - tinted screen.
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Seno
Pro
BANNED FOR LIFE!
Posts: 1230
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posted December 23, 2011 09:02 PM
Indeed, trying to figure out if I need to go up a few teeth... I walk around 225-235... Not sure if adding 2 will help me out or just make it a wheelie machine...
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2012 Black 14R -> Completely done!
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dbeadling
Zone Head
Posts: 699
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posted December 23, 2011 11:41 PM
now I know why they put the front wheel on....your supposed to keep both wheels on the ground....and I have just been using just the back wheel most of the time.I thought the front wheel just made it look better all this time. the 1400r is a rocket... it just wants to go straight up
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robrooter
Expert Class
Posts: 178
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posted December 24, 2011 12:01 AM
 Edited By: robrooter on 24 Dec 2011 08:03
guys do you need to use the speedo healer to go pass the limiter thats what i used it for on boath of my 14s
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Ride it, Respect it, It can an will bite you when you least expect. /smilies/smile.gif" border=0>
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted December 24, 2011 01:41 AM
Wheel speed being sensed by the front and rear slotted rotors and used by the ECU for traction control, ABS, speedo etc probably means that using a Speedo Healer to derestrict, as on the ZX-14, will not work. It's still pre-launch here in the UK so it's all guesswork at the moment.
I hope someone with a 14R will have a go at derestriction and post some information. 
____________
Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 24, 2011 06:18 AM
The speed is not sensed off of the front wheel. It shows speed on the dyno.
Shane
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kaw now
Expert Class
Posts: 446
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posted December 24, 2011 08:25 AM
It may use either possibly uses whatever is working thats why it shows speed on dyno.
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted December 24, 2011 10:05 AM
quote:
The speed is not sensed off of the front wheel. It shows speed on the dyno.
Shane
Agreed but what we need to know is what the effect of removing or modifying the signal from the rear wheel sensor might be. Will the ecu throw an error code for example or will a Speedohealer on the rear wheel signal work the same as the ZX-14. What are the effects this might have on the traction control and will turning it off work? All these questions need answering for us LSR riders.
Happy Christmas everyone.
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Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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chriszx14R
Novice Class
Posts: 64
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posted December 24, 2011 10:14 AM
quote:
quote:
The speed is not sensed off of the front wheel. It shows speed on the dyno.
Shane
Agreed but what we need to know is what the effect of removing or modifying the signal from the rear wheel sensor might be. Will the ecu throw an error code for example or will a Speedohealer on the rear wheel signal work the same as the ZX-14. What are the effects this might have on the traction control and will turning it off work? All these questions need answering for us LSR riders.
Happy Christmas everyone. [/quote
Has anyone ever tried machining every other slot out of the speed sensor rotors? i was thinking about this last night. I would think it would tell the bike that it was going half as fast
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2002 ZX12R
2004 ZX10R
2012 ZX14R
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 24, 2011 10:24 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 24 Dec 2011 18:53
quote:
quote:
The speed is not sensed off of the front wheel. It shows speed on the dyno.
Shane
Agreed but what we need to know is what the effect of removing or modifying the signal from the rear wheel sensor might be. Will the ecu throw an error code for example or will a Speedohealer on the rear wheel signal work the same as the ZX-14. What are the effects this might have on the traction control and will turning it off work? All these questions need answering for us LSR riders.
Happy Christmas everyone. [/quote
Has anyone ever tried machining every other slot out of the speed sensor rotors? i was thinking about this last night. I would think it would tell the bike that it was going half as fast
I understand what you are saying, Bob. I have many LSR passes on my '07 ZX-14, using a speedohealer. However, I think the best way to handle this problem is through the ECU (speed limiter removal). Don Guhl, of Guhl Motors is working with a 14R ecu right now. That is the route that I intend to take. 
Machining the rotor will certainly affect traction control functioning as you would be reducing the sampling resolution.
Now, if you must have a correct speedo reading for other purposes, that is a different issue. Btw, on the dyno my 14R showed roughly +5 mph compared to the drum speed at 60 mph.
Shane
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KAWITOM
Expert Class
My 12R gone but not forgotten
Posts: 218
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posted December 24, 2011 10:52 AM
Guy's I know for a fact you don't want to remove the signal, because on mine Adam's performance has my OEM brake hanger they are using it to make a new brake bar piece. So I borrowed a first gen brake hanger from my buddy to go on dyno, it had the marks on it for the sensor so I drilled them out and tapped the two bolt holes.
The problem was my sensor was too far away from the rim and I had no speedo reading at all and it popped 2 codes 24,27. One was for the front wheel and one for the rear, so the speedo definately reads off the back sensor and when I was getting those codes the bike wouldn't rev past 10,000 because other people who have dynoed have gotten the code 27 which is the front wheel and still have their speedo working and didn't lose a 1000 rpms off their bike.
According to the service manual it says the rear wheel sensor must send 45 signals to the ECU at the 1 rotation of the wheel, so I don't think you would want to mess with the slots on the rim either.
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2012 ZX-14R SE
2002 VULCAN MEAN STREAK (11.41 @ 114 best 1/4)
I BLEED GREEN
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Greggy
Expert Class
Posts: 150
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posted December 24, 2011 05:01 PM
An open source 14R ECU is definitely what is needed - that way it can be reprogrammed to suit different requirements. The stock ECU will likely be fine for 99.9% of riders but for those who drag race, or need (want?) to go faster than 300Km/h then a reprogrammed ECU will be a must.
Hopefully KHI will come to the party and provide details on how this can be done so that people don't screw around with parts of their bike that could potentialy make them malfunction and/or un-safe.
What would have been really cool would be a USB port on the 14R dash so that a laptop can be plugged in and a KHI program run to flash the ECU to different modes, such as 'remove speed limit' or modify the opening of the secondary butterflys, ignition/fuel maps etc.
Greggy
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2012 ZX-14R ABS - Spark Black - Two Brothers V.A.L.E. Carbon slip ons P1X tips - Powerbronze DB screen.
1990 ZX-10 Ninja - Megacycle stainless steel mufflers - gear-sack rack - tinted screen.
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darrylez1
Novice Class
Posts: 70
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posted December 25, 2011 05:09 AM
what about covering some of the rotor slots with alumimun metal tape.This way no damage to the slots for testing
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07 14 ,brock S-meg BST's,2012 14r BST's ceramic bearings,rear sets ,full Hindle Evo
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted December 25, 2011 07:08 AM
quote:
what about covering some of the rotor slots with alumimun metal tape.This way no damage to the slots for testing
Don't think that would work. It's an inductive pickup not an optical head.
____________
Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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darrylez1
Novice Class
Posts: 70
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posted December 25, 2011 08:05 AM
this may be stupid question,but what about a resistor,cap or coil in series with the pick-up
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07 14 ,brock S-meg BST's,2012 14r BST's ceramic bearings,rear sets ,full Hindle Evo
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted December 25, 2011 12:58 PM
It's the pulse repetition rate which is used, not the amplitude. That's what a Speedo Healer was all about, it would output the pulses at a lower or higher rate depending on how it was set. Originally intended for speedo calibration and used by LSR riders to beat the limiter by setting the speedo to under-read.
____________
Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 25, 2011 01:05 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 25 Dec 2011 21:09
Well, I am going to definitely opt for reflashing my ecu to remove the speed limiter. I never liked relying on the speedohealer anyway, just one more part to fail (and sometimes it did some strange things). Guhl reflashed Racheal's Gen 1 and removed the speed limiter, and the bike revs to an actual 11400 rpm now.
That also eliminates the worries/problems associated with the traction control.
Shane
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted December 26, 2011 01:43 AM
Reflashing appears to be the easier option. I was wondering though, since the speedo works on a dyno when the front wheel is stationary and no error codes appear, would disconnecting the front wheel-speed sensor and "speedo healing" the rear sensor signal be successful? You may have to switch off TC every time the bike is started, as it defaults to "on" but it's worth a try.
No bikes here yet so I can't try it myself.
____________
Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 26, 2011 05:29 AM
Error codes do appear after it is ridden stationary on the dyno for a bit.
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Seno
Pro
BANNED FOR LIFE!
Posts: 1230
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posted December 26, 2011 08:18 AM
How much does re-flashing cost approximately? No ill effects on the ECU? Can it be undone relatively easily?
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2012 Black 14R -> Completely done!
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kawa74
Expert Class
Posts: 226
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posted December 26, 2011 08:24 AM
Just throwing this out there.
The sensors have got to be Magnetic triggers, counting revalutions , is the star wheel Steel???
ECU is comparing trigger counts between front and back, right???
If it counts or is tiggered by openings between star wheel
Maybe if yoo can place a thin piece of metal, steel, between star and pickup, trigger will read no opening, ECU will think bike is just idling
Maybe someone can remove pickup and see if it is Magnetic , place a piece of steel on it and see if it will REV to limiter, 10,700 or so ?? see if it will Throw any codes
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"I have never met a man so Ignorant that I coun't Learn from him"..."Galileo"
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted December 26, 2011 08:35 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 26 Dec 2011 16:36
quote:
How much does re-flashing cost approximately? No ill effects on the ECU? Can it be undone relatively easily?
On a Gen 1 it is $375, I believe. No ill effects...you could have it flashed back to stock, but there is really no need.
http://www.guhlmotors.com
The one we had on Racheal's Gen 1 bike works great, and turnaround time was around 1 day.
Shane
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