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BIKELAND > FORUMS > ZX-14.com > Thread: Valve clearance help from the engine guys, please NEW TOPIC NEW POLL POST REPLY
Thread: Valve clearance help from the engine guys, please
Edgecrusher


Expert Class
Posts: 256
posted January 25, 2011 06:03 AM        
Valve clearance help from the engine guys, please

Here's where I'm at. I've been measuring my original shims and recording their placement and resulting clearances on a chart to help figure out what my next size needs to be. I was able to redo the exhaust shims out of the original sizes I had and they all worked out but one which appears to be .1 big - not sure if I'm that worried about it. But now I'm on to the Intakes and that's where I've run into a problem.
Every one of my intakes required I buy a new size which I did from RonAyers.com which was a site with microfiche support that I would use with my Suzuki, it's similar to Bikebandit.com. I took someone's suggestion to try the HONDA CRF450 shims which have the same diameter but are supposed to offer more sizes. Well, I didn't find more sizes but they were about $2 less a piece. So I ordered 3. 2.55mm, 2. 2.45mm, 2. 2.40mm, 1. 2.325mm and 1. 1.35mm which happened to be a mistake on my part but was just an extra anyways.
Well I measured each as I installed them and the measurements were wildly off for most of them and the results I got were even more baffling! I don't remember what the 2.55mm measured at but they seem to be alright where they are. The others were more confusing. For example, my right intake shim on #4 originally was 2.38mm with a clearance of .13 (acceptable range is .15-.20mm), so I ordered a 2.325 to bring it within specs but the shim actually measured 2.10mm but was marked 2.325 and clearanced at .25mm. If you add up the clearances and subtract the differences that doesn't work out. Granted I don't have a feeler gauge in every increment, but only .15, .17, and .203 I can still get an idea of just where the clearance sits and it doesn't add up. I actually made a shim change of .28mm but I end up with a change in clearance of .12mm?

Please help me figure out why I'm getting these results. Am I doing something wrong? And why should I accept these bad shims from this company? I think they should be exchanged for correct shims, right? Or am I not seeing something?

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SteddyTeddy


Pro
Posts: 1664
posted January 25, 2011 06:47 AM        
Buy a shim kit. http://www.hotcamsinc.com/ProductInfo.aspx?cat_id=9 Some dealers will exchange shims for you. Other will charge a small fee.
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Edgecrusher


Expert Class
Posts: 256
posted January 25, 2011 07:46 AM        
why must I buy a kit filled with tons of shims I don't need? or is getting a shim that actually comes close to it's intended size more like russian roulette?
Someone with more to say would be helpful

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SteddyTeddy


Pro
Posts: 1664
posted January 25, 2011 09:46 AM        
Because then you will have the shims you need and won't be on here asking why my shim doesn't fit. You can buy just the sizes you want or they sell them in small kits of the desired range that you will use. The shims are usually within .001" tollerance of each other. You either got a mis-marked shim or your Kawasaki doesn't like you putting Honda shims in it.
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BIGZXDADDY


Expert Class
Posts: 270
posted January 25, 2011 11:42 AM        
shims almost never measure to what is stamped on them so it is very helpful to have an assortment. "no-go" feeler gauges and a micrometer also makes things a bit easier
____________
"never drive faster than you can see, besides it's all in the reflexes"

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Edgecrusher


Expert Class
Posts: 256
posted January 25, 2011 02:04 PM        
just for argument's sake, if I were to get the stinkin kits you ladies suggest they only include 3 of any size. I needed 3 or more of several sizes and then what's the chance all three would be right anyways. Those kits are only good if you've accumulated a couple kits worth and you do valve jobs every other day. At this point I'm returning what I have to RonAyers and calling it a fluke and picking up what I need at a dealership only after they mic it in front of my own eyes. None of the ones I've gotten that way so far are as 'off' as those piece of crap hondas, if that says anything.

Now I had a deeper question that no one seems to want to address which is fine, I'll finger it out myself.

And what the heck do you mean by 'no-go- feeler gauges? I have the blade style and so far that is what everyone I've talked to uses. I'm curious what a no-go feeler would look like. As stated before I already have a Micrometer. I figured at least one person might suggest the difference in math and actual readings maybe resulting from oil film thickness.? or something else?
We'll see tonight with a couple 'correct' shims if I have any luck?
if not I may enter myself into psychiatric care! lol

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INTIMIDA2OR


Needs a life
RED rider!
Posts: 12914
posted January 25, 2011 05:47 PM        
I think your biggest issue is shim quality.
When I get shims from the stealership. I'll bring the sizes I need with me and bring my mic too and make sure I get the sizes I need .I don't swap them cause I might need those sizes for later so I just buy them.
____________
'06 Passion Red ZX-14



*Lee*

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watthecu


Zone Head
PissingContestHere
Posts: 543
posted January 25, 2011 07:23 PM        
Look, use a go-no-go system. You are nit-picking hair thicknesses. For argument sake, say the gap is between 3 and 7. If a .002" can go into a 3 size, I think you are within the 3 to 7 range.

Say you installed an .008" feeler gauge and it did not fit. Well are you within the 7 range? Yes. Because you have no clue if the 8 not going in is at 75999999999 or is on the hair thickness you cannot move that feeler gauge in. So, would not the 7 look more like; .0079999999999999999999" and one more time, you now have the ability to squeeze in an 8 and it will not fit.

So if you have a go-no-go kind of feelers, who cares where the honda shims dial in. As long as you are within that gap, she is within spec. We getting the drift of the gap within a gap?

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INTIMIDA2OR


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posted January 25, 2011 07:36 PM        

____________
'06 Passion Red ZX-14



*Lee*

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Edgecrusher


Expert Class
Posts: 256
posted January 26, 2011 06:53 AM        
quote:
I think your biggest issue is shim quality.
When I get shims from the stealership. I'll bring the sizes I need with me and bring my mic too and make sure I get the sizes I need .I don't swap them cause I might need those sizes for later so I just buy them.


thanks
this is exactly what I've begun doing. things are going well now. I found I also made some incorrect measurements initially. Back on track now. Hopefully I'll find the last couple I need today and they'll fit right.

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Edgecrusher


Expert Class
Posts: 256
posted January 26, 2011 03:22 PM        
If an intake is .03mm too big is that going to have a negative impact on performance or is that acceptable. I got .23mm on one intake valve instead of .20mm.
nah I guess I might as well go down .05mm and put it in the .18 sweet spot. Better not let haste get the best of me. I like working on engines but my patience with going back and forth to the dealership really sucks!

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INTIMIDA2OR


Needs a life
RED rider!
Posts: 12914
posted January 26, 2011 11:16 PM        
Just one I doudt you feel any difference but you may hear that one tick very lightly .
____________
'06 Passion Red ZX-14



*Lee*

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Edgecrusher


Expert Class
Posts: 256
posted January 27, 2011 07:06 AM        
I've got a couple teetering on being a thousandth over but I figure they'll be fine thus one I will fix though as long as I'm at it.

BTW thanks for the help so far
this is my favorite forum so far.

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SteddyTeddy


Pro
Posts: 1664
posted January 27, 2011 07:51 AM        
As long as you get them between the upper and lower tollerance you'll be fine.
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Bri-mo


Parking Attendant
C'est la vie
Posts: 27
posted January 31, 2011 02:24 PM        
Im checking valve clearance for the first time. My bikes got 31K miles. Had a leaky valve cover and cam chain tensioner was crap. I got one exhaust valve under spec. by about .0015". Minimum spec was .0087 and I had to go down to .007 feeler to get under cam. Do you guys think its worth it to change this one shim or should I let it go and just check it next year?? The rest of the valves are in spec., but all are close to the minimum. I also am putting on a manual chain tensioner.
____________
Brian

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Edgecrusher


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Posts: 256
posted February 01, 2011 07:27 AM        Edited By: Edgecrusher on 1 Feb 2011 14:28
That's .005mm too tight. I would go down .010mm with your shim size which ought to put your somewhere in the middle range. Or depending on what sizes are available maybe even a half size thinner than that. From what I've learned it is best to have them as far on the loose side as possible since they will all tighten back up eventually. A lot of mine were right on the money for the minimum clearance and technically I could have saved some money and left it alone but I chose to push it back to the looser side and take the extra time now so I know it will last till the next service interval (or more). But I'm just a novice at this sort of stuff so take what I say and add it to what others say.

good luck

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BIGZXDADDY


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posted February 02, 2011 11:31 AM        
quote:


And what the heck do you mean by 'no-go- feeler gauges? I have the blade style and so far that is what everyone I've talked to uses. I'm curious what a no-go feeler would look like.

a "no go-go" feeler gauge looks just like a blade guage but only the tip is machined to the measured thickness with the body being slightly thicker. without having a guage in every increment this type gives much better feel of being tight or loose on your measurement
____________
"never drive faster than you can see, besides it's all in the reflexes"

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Edgecrusher


Expert Class
Posts: 256
posted February 03, 2011 12:57 PM        
quote:
quote:


And what the heck do you mean by 'no-go- feeler gauges? I have the blade style and so far that is what everyone I've talked to uses. I'm curious what a no-go feeler would look like.

a "no go-go" feeler gauge looks just like a blade guage but only the tip is machined to the measured thickness with the body being slightly thicker. without having a guage in every increment this type gives much better feel of being tight or loose on your measurement


Oh, I see. Thank you for explaining that to me. I was afraid I came off harsh, but I really couldn't picture them.lol I'll have to keep an eye out for them.

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