VincentHill
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posted October 16, 2006 10:06 AM
I just got my Rag together last night (SPent 7 hours on it )and need 2 or 3 more to Finish.
I am going to have to be content with 275 to 280 HP on a Flat line from Putton Push to Letting go of the Button. I have never seen HP like this because normally there is a Build up of Power then the Peak then the power drops off. When I hit the button at 8,000 the power goes to about 250 to 260 and by 9,000 it is at 265 to 275 and just stays there until I let off the Button. I am not going to try (Right Now) for the 25 to 35 More HP I know it will make!
Let us Meet at Maxton next Year when you are finished! OK??
  
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bishopzx12
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Posts: 517
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posted October 16, 2006 10:27 AM
Without a doubt. I am hoping to see you before then. I usually come up there about once a yar aroung the holidays as i did the first time we met. I would love to see your face again if you have the time and maybe even get a chance to check out the garage if time permits.
vince question? what are the pros and cons of bigger cam vs degreeing your cams. I know that the cams with my 12 i just degreed them becaue i was informed that with the amount of money you only gain 2-3hp but the power delivery in the upper ranges were better with after market cams. I am thinking of maybe doing a valve spring kit with titanium retainers and just degreeing them. I am just getting a consensus. Getting all my parts together first them getting the build started. Should have pistons any day.
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1996 ZX7R
1999 ZX9R
1999 ZX11
2000 ZX12R 1270
2002 GSXR 1000 "I was Drunk"
2003 ZX12R 1375
2006 ZX14
2012 ZX14R
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dubious
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Needs more time to ride!
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posted October 16, 2006 10:52 AM
 Edited By: dubious on 16 Oct 2006 11:56
I just quickly skimmed the responses so if I am repeating ..... then sorry!
Without a doubt, 1st pick a reputable shop.
Then pick one that will do ALL the work.
An entire kit, so you end up with a tested, proven, inspected COMBINATION.
with some sort of warrantee, of workmanship at least.
not a bunch of miss match parts.
for example,
rod length to stroke ratio should remain between 1.6 and 1.8.
to do this the rods and pistons may need to be built to work together.
If you buy rods and crank from one place, and pistons, and cams from others, the pin location, skirt loading, rod angle, deck clearance, and piston to valve clearances may not
work out for you.
Unless ....
your "helper " is a professional engine builder, can check valve to piston clearances, balance rotatiing assemblies, degree cams, plasti gauge for torque clearances, has mic's to measure and confirm piston to bore clearances, inspect trueness and parallel between the cylinders etc....
YOU WONT BE SAVING ANY MONEY!
and yes, a $750 wet shot will do the same thing in the 1/4 as the $5000 ported, stroked, bored motor.... for how long ???? remains to be seen.
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VincentHill
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posted October 16, 2006 10:53 AM
The 12's Cams are pretty good as they are but I think the 14 could gain Peak Power because the cams lin in the ZRX are more biased for the Mid Range and the same way the ZRX with ZX11 Cams really wakes up the same for the ZX14.
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zx14_1965
Zone Head
Posts: 505
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posted October 16, 2006 07:41 PM
Edited By: zx14_1965 on 16 Oct 2006 20:42
quote:
Is that 170 SAE?? or STD? If STD then still about 162 is good for a True 1200 using Carbs. My 1052 makes 133 SAE and 140 STD no Bore or Stroke, No Head Work or Carbs and still using the Stock Airbox. (Yes the ZX11 Cams and a 4-2-1 Hindle). I also feel that if I bored and Stroked it to 1200 CC then I should be able to gain 20+ more HP but I am not going to do that because it is fine right now. Since I have the AirBox and a HUGE Place to store a 2.5 or even a 5 pound bottle, I may just spray a 30 or 40 shot and pull on the throttle enrichment device to add the extra fuel and have 170 to 180 HP to Whup up on those 14's that may come calling! (While I am out riding and minding my own business 
I think that the Muzz Man made about 240 to 250 HP NA on the ZX12R Race engine he had. I do not think the 14 will make more! even with the Muzz man at the wheel!
Those are SAE numbers on a DJ250. May re-degree to get the torque in the mid-range. Std was 177.4
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smokinZX14
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posted October 16, 2006 08:00 PM
quote:
quote:
Is that 170 SAE?? or STD? If STD then still about 162 is good for a True 1200 using Carbs. My 1052 makes 133 SAE and 140 STD no Bore or Stroke, No Head Work or Carbs and still using the Stock Airbox. (Yes the ZX11 Cams and a 4-2-1 Hindle). I also feel that if I bored and Stroked it to 1200 CC then I should be able to gain 20+ more HP but I am not going to do that because it is fine right now. Since I have the AirBox and a HUGE Place to store a 2.5 or even a 5 pound bottle, I may just spray a 30 or 40 shot and pull on the throttle enrichment device to add the extra fuel and have 170 to 180 HP to Whup up on those 14's that may come calling! (While I am out riding and minding my own business
I think that the Muzz Man made about 240 to 250 HP NA on the ZX12R Race engine he had. I do not think the 14 will make more! even with the Muzz man at the wheel!
Those are SAE numbers on a DJ250. May re-degree to get the torque in the mid-range. Std was 177.4
Happy Dyno for sure....I would rather see your ETs and MPH and the total weight of your ride with you on board...That way i could see a real HP number..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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kawpower
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Mr kawasaki 2 you!
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posted October 17, 2006 04:56 AM
Vince have you gone 200 yet and why do you hate the 14?
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GUNNER
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posted October 17, 2006 06:42 AM
quote:
Vince have you gone 200 yet and why do you hate the 14?
I don't think Vince hate the 14 at all... I think he feels just like most of us die hard motor guys feel.............................Kawasaki fucked us hard with this cylinder being cast to the top case. They gave us an engine package that's NOT designed to be worked on like a 12R or Busa. It's disposable at best. Just wait till a few of these builds start going wrong and you'll see 14s being parted out everywhere.
The 14 is a good motor to leave alone or to do simple mods to. Strokers and wild build ups are better left to a motor that's designed with that in mind. In short Kawasaki FUCKED all it's loyal customers with that one simple move.... NOT even th Muzz Man likes it and has openly stated so just NOT as clearly as I just did. Possibly Vince feels totally different but I'm taking bets NOT.
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VincentHill
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posted October 17, 2006 07:08 AM
quote:
quote:
Vince have you gone 200 yet and why do you hate the 14?
I don't think Vince hate the 14 at all... I think he feels just like most of us die hard motor guys feel.............................Kawasaki fucked us hard with this cylinder being cast to the top case. They gave us an engine package that's NOT designed to be worked on like a 12R or Busa. It's disposable at best. Just wait till a few of these builds start going wrong and you'll see 14s being parted out everywhere.
The 14 is a good motor to leave alone or to do simple mods to. Strokers and wild build ups are better left to a motor that's designed with that in mind. In short Kawasaki FUCKED all it's loyal customers with that one simple move.... NOT even th Muzz Man likes it and has openly stated so just NOT as clearly as I just did. Possibly Vince feels totally different but I'm taking bets NOT.
You Summed up Most of it! The rest is when I rode it I had to keep reminding myself that I was not on a Honda. It just did not feel like any KAWASAKI I have ever ridden! The engine noises, the Mufflers the Look just was not Stirring to my Soul like the H-1 500 or H-2 750 the KZ1000, the 1984 900 Ninja, the 1992 ZX11, the ZX12R, all of these were Kawasaki's but not the 14.
WOrse than all of this was the NUETERING of the engine in all but 5th gear. Now the Attorneys are making motorcycles..
About 200 MPH still officially 199.3
WHen I reached that point I knew that with the set up I had than 204 or 205 was possible but the limit on what I had. SO I started from scratch and built what I have now and have had more than my share of problems in dialing it in over the last 2 years. TWO YEARS SOunds like a Long time but in Racing, and only going to "4" meets in that time period and only working on the bike a few Sunday's a month (Church on Saturday). I have spent a total of maybe a total of 20 to 25 days at about 8 hours per day I have spent about a total of 200 hours (about 5 weeks at 8 hours per day) working on the bike in the last 2 years.
I just found the main problems in the last few months of why I could not make the power I knew the engine had! (Bad SOlenoid for the nos) but going bad very slowly and a NOS Line that worked on the bike one way but not the other! Now everything is fixed so hopefully I can make the power it is supposed to and we run some good numbers
BTW, we were rained out for my run at Maxton the last time and when we put the bike on the dyno the way it sat on the track it was making 260 HP
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smokinZX14
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posted October 17, 2006 07:30 AM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 17 Oct 2006 08:43
quote:
OK, 1534 is better than the figure of 1417. I have not seen a Piston from a 14, but if it is "ANYTHING" like the 12 piston, the pin is already within 1 MM of the Oil control ring and the person that said you may have to go to a 2 ring set up is correct! the problem there is the piston being very short is unstable and prone to rocking which loads the skirts and will break the piston at the Skirt (Just like the problems Yoshimura had when they originally changed the design on the 750 engine at Daytona one year. All they did was spray the dye on the pistons and see the cracks. The Engine would not last 250 miles period and that is not the load a Drag race engine sees but you get the idea. Having a ZX14 is great for you but it was not designed to be the Be ALL end ALL Drag race engine like a BUSA is.
#1 thru 10 you are limited because of the Case / Cylinder being 1 piece. With a Busa or ZX12 you can simply change the cylinder or in my case raise the Cylinder. You cannot do either. I have said this Over and Over about the design of this engine and will continue to say it. I really feel that a ZX12R Engine can be made to have more power than a ZX14 engine and be reliable
I agree with some points of your statement... You will not be able to add a spacer so you will end up with some pretty funky rod angles.....But thats an easy fix by moving the pin into the oil ring and adding a spacer to the oil ring land .. That's done all the time to short Deck BB chevy motors and works fine.... True the piston skirt will end up being very short but J&E makes one of the best piston on the market ,i have seen pistons from them so short one would think they would not last any time at all but they do.. The one piece block can hold more HP than a two piece block..The gixxer guys have a one piece block and have no problems going 1170 and hold together just fine.....I build a lot of BB chevy and BB chry race motors and try to keep the rod ratio at 1.5 to 1.6 but in short deck BB chevy motors it can end up at 1.3...But even at 1.3 they seem to live a long and happy life on the drag strip...
The zx14 has been out just a very short time and time will tell what can be done ..Good sign is the after market is all over this bike and new hot rod parts are showing up daily...We need to get over worring about this one piece block because all new bikes are going to be built this way. I'll bet money if a new Busa come out in 08 it will be a one piece block...The reason for this is it's stronger, lighter,less cost to build....
I really don't understand all the fuss over the one piece block thing ... If you want to stroke a zx12 you still have to split the cases and send the block out for a bore and a replate same as a zx14.... Sure it's a bit more labor to strip the upper case but the cost should be the same for the boring and plating....You know people said the same thing about the new small block chevy and ford motors but the HP numbers have gone way past the old motors out put ...I'll bet money that the ford v8 flat head guys from the 50s said the same thing about Chevys new 265 OHV when it first hit the market... 
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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GUNNER
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posted October 17, 2006 07:44 AM
Only time will tell I guess.
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GUNNER
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posted October 17, 2006 07:54 AM
Edited By: GUNNER on 17 Oct 2006 08:57
But the cylinder situation will stop ALL but the true die hard guys from rebuilds. It totally kills exchanged cylinders and weekend rebuilds. NOW you have to send the top case out and have a motor scattered for a month or more. That's enough to turn guys back from piston kits. YOu can't just have spare top ends ready to bolt on. And a chunked cylinder or blown head gasket that torched the cylinder will mean a completely new set of cases. It will add a lot of cost to the rebuilds. Sure it was cheaper for Kawasaki but at the expense of added cost to the customer if he wants to build a monster.. AGAIN time will tell.. But a good measuring stick is the lack of 10Rs that you see getting cylinders bored. It does happen but not nearly as often and the cost is nearly double to have the work done. When I ask Coby Adams WHY he stated because the rebuild was so much more complicated due to the cylinder being cast to the top case.. This situation will make guys like him a lot more money in the end because it will all but stop the average guy from attempting a rebuild.
Like everything it has good and bad points.. Without doubt the bike is a good bike and I'm NOT putting it down.. I just wish it was made a litttle easier to work on.
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bishopzx12
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Posts: 517
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posted October 17, 2006 10:58 AM
feel your pain fellas but like gunner says there are bad point and good points. i try to be optimistic kind of like the glass is half full in oppose to half empty. anyhow i think this engine cast is new thing all together because it seems the suzuki are doing the same with their 600,750, and the 1000
____________
1996 ZX7R
1999 ZX9R
1999 ZX11
2000 ZX12R 1270
2002 GSXR 1000 "I was Drunk"
2003 ZX12R 1375
2006 ZX14
2012 ZX14R
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zx14_1965
Zone Head
Posts: 505
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posted October 18, 2006 07:19 AM
quote:
Happy Dyno for sure....I would rather see your ETs and MPH and the total weight of your ride with you on board...That way i could see a real HP number..
DJ250i are not known for being "happy", dyno pulls were done on 3 separate DJ250i within a 50mile radius of where I live. The 170 SAE pull was 3hp less than the other two dynos used. A ZX12 was ran right after mine and pulled a 173 SAE with custom map full exaust and MR9. The ZRX weighs 535 wet. You'd have to personally ride it to be impressed...it's one hell of a bike. Knock my numbers all you want. I don't drag race for pleasure, but I do alot of road courses. Ran a 1:59 at Laguna...and was clocked at 153 on the straight before having to come on the brakes. Fuly stock I ran a 2:23
Plenty of guys out there who drags ZRXs. One guy with similar mods as mine but with 164hp ran a 9:37 1:51 60ft at 147mph -- somewhere in that neighborhood as far as numbers go...that's cookin'
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smokinZX14
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posted October 18, 2006 07:38 AM
Edited By: smokinZX14 on 18 Oct 2006 08:40
quote:
quote:
Happy Dyno for sure....I would rather see your ETs and MPH and the total weight of your ride with you on board...That way i could see a real HP number..
DJ250i are not known for being "happy", dyno pulls were done on 3 separate DJ250i within a 50mile radius of where I live. The 170 SAE pull was 3hp less than the other two dynos used. A ZX12 was ran right after mine and pulled a 173 SAE with custom map full exaust and MR9. The ZRX weighs 535 wet. You'd have to personally ride it to be impressed...it's one hell of a bike. Knock my numbers all you want. I don't drag race for pleasure, but I do alot of road courses. Ran a 1:59 at Laguna...and was clocked at 153 on the straight before having to come on the brakes. Fuly stock I ran a 2:23
Plenty of guys out there who drags ZRXs. One guy with similar mods as mine but with 164hp ran a 9:37 1:51 60ft at 147mph -- somewhere in that neighborhood as far as numbers go...that's cookin'
You don't have to tell me anything about a ZRX seening that my ZRX is the second fastest all motor ZRX on the ZRXOA site....Oh by the way Jons 60 footers are in the low 1.40s like mine...and his last time out before he sold it he ran a 1.39 60 ...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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GUNNER
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posted October 18, 2006 08:11 AM
Edited By: GUNNER on 18 Oct 2006 09:14
quote:
feel your pain fellas but like gunner says there are bad point and good points. i try to be optimistic kind of like the glass is half full in oppose to half empty. anyhow i think this engine cast is new thing all together because it seems the suzuki are doing the same with their 600,750, and the 1000
Well in the Words of Vince.......It's Honda engineering at it's best. Honda will figure everything down to the smallest detail for weight and strength. For example if Honda figures it takes an 8mm bolt to hold a particular load they will spec some supper high strength 5mm bolt for the job. By doing so they they save weight in many spots. The boss required for the bolt to screw into can be made smaller and the bolt itself is smaller and lighter. Once you add all these small savings up it makes a smaller package and produces the same desired result..
The only problem with this method is it leaves very little room for altering the original design. There's just not anything there to alter. It really limits what can be done. Honda has designed things like that for years. As for the liter bikes they don't get some huge bore and stroke added for drag racing. The class rules say 1000cc limit and that's all it can be. So an integrated cylinder works great on the ZX10. It's already all it can be for any racing class it may enter. As for the ZX14 it's clearly going to find a home on the drag strip and kawasaki knew that shit when the ASS humped the design that limits how big the motor can be made. It was a design error that will still allow the Busa motor to rule the strips in ALL out modded form. Kawasaki has a way of getting so close to the target only to miss the Bulls Eye for some stupid reason.. Case in point is the brakes on the 10R. Three years into production and they still put JUNK calipers on an otherwise perfect bike.
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smokinZX14
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posted October 18, 2006 08:39 AM
GUNNER I agree ALL out the busa wins for now ...But i will never go that far with my zx14 nor will most zx14 riders....You go that far and you end up with a race only bike, clutch every pass, rebuilds weeky and so on .... But for stock motor mod to mod the zx14 hand down wins....Still i should point out that Coby Adams zx14 with Gadson riding is giving the turbo Busas a run for thier money....He is spraying a pretty big shot and the bike is holding up well ....As far as i know the pistons have been changed to a set of J&E n20 pistons and i'm sure Coby did some head work and maybe some trick cams ..But that is a hell of alot less mods than the Busa turbo guys are running.... One last thing kawi didn't update the brakes for 3 years on the zx10 ... Ok but in 8 years the Busa never got better brakes either.....Smokin ...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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GUNNER
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posted October 18, 2006 09:08 AM
Edited By: GUNNER on 18 Oct 2006 10:11
All I can say is I have 6 Kawasaki's in my garage and NO Suzuki's. I'm very brand loyal but in recent times Kawasaki is starting to slip into a Honda design mode. As far as Coby goes it's anyone's guess what he has done to that 14. I was at his shop 2 times last Feb and the 14 was being stroked on HARD! I dropped off my 10R cylinder head the first trip and returned 2 weeks later and picked it up. In those two weeks the first drag numbers were leaked to the press with Ricky on Coby's bike. It was fast as hell from the start. Coby told me that kawasaki was watching over how the test were run and they were very strict on what was done to the bike. After that first test they let him pull out the stops and work on the motor. In one weeks time he put a complete motor package together and had it on the dyno putting out some big numbers. That was over 6 months ago and in that 6 months I suppose Coby has has done noting but stroke that motor for more power and has found it. Coby is a bright guy. But keep in mind that Coby also gets plenty of help from Kawasaki. On my first visit there which was several weeks before anyone had even seen a ZX14 Coby had spare motors already laying all over his work benches. His learning curve is way in front of 98% of most everyone else. And You can't leave out the fact that he's one of the sharper knifes in the kitchen to start with.
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VincentHill
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posted October 18, 2006 11:32 AM
I also have had mostly All Kawasaki's. I like the understress design they used and now a KZ1000 Engine is like a Chrysler Hemi used in Drag Racing or an Original 265 Chevy engine that are now over 500 CC's.
The Only think Kawasaki has not YET Learned to do is redesign the Light Bulb! Make Kawasaki ONLY Parts that are normally Standard on other bikes. Even the "Feel" of Riding the 14 was more like a Honda. Now as far as the Magazines go, that is a good thing but I do not like Vanilla Ice Cream! I always wanted some different Flavor to come through.
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kawpower
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Mr kawasaki 2 you!
Posts: 887
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posted October 18, 2006 01:01 PM
The new busa will have a one piece block and case too, and from what i see at the strip it hasnt stopped the 1000 boys from bilding monster motors, as for the 14 feelin like a honda, i thought it felt and reminded me of my 94 zx11d.
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VincentHill
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posted October 18, 2006 06:39 PM
quote:
The new busa will have a one piece block and case too, and from what i see at the strip it hasnt stopped the 1000 boys from bilding monster motors, as for the 14 feelin like a honda, i thought it felt and reminded me of my 94 zx11d.
ZX11D I had the Option of either the "C" or "D" and I bought the "C" ! I never rode one but just the Size was enough to turn me off
Clearly the Somewhat merger of KawaSuzuki has the Flame Painter working full time and other things
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Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
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Bently
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posted October 18, 2006 06:43 PM
Flame painter is on crack!
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zx14_1965
Zone Head
Posts: 505
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posted October 18, 2006 09:08 PM
Edited By: zx14_1965 on 18 Oct 2006 22:09
quote:
[ou don't have to tell me anything about a ZRX seening that my ZRX is the second fastest all motor ZRX on the ZRXOA site....Oh by the way Jons 60 footers are in the low 1.40s like mine...and his last time out before he sold it he ran a 1.39 60 ...
So there you are.....you know what a 164hp ZRX can do..so you can imagine a 170hp one ridden by someone who knows how to ride the 1/4. Wish I lived closer to all the Rex draggers, would've been cool to let a seasoned rider take it for a roll down the strip. I'd be happy just to sit and watch. 
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kawpower
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Mr kawasaki 2 you!
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posted October 20, 2006 08:12 AM
BTW ,what is a flame painter? excuse me if i sound dumb,just never heard the exspression before.
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