gtracing
Expert Class
Posts: 159
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posted June 07, 2006 01:55 AM
 Edited By: gtracing on 7 Jun 2006 02:57
Don't remove the throttle plates says IVAN
Hi Guys,
Here are 2 dyno tests that I did today on the ZX-14......
As anyone can see in the charts, the best low rpm performance is gotten with the plates intact, and the TRE installed.
The secondary throttle plates ensure good low rpm performance.
After riding the bike without them, any sudden throttle opening 3000 rpm or less will cause hesitation.
There is an advantage as compared to bone stock at low rpm, but the bike actually lost a couple on the top.
This may be due to turbulence or maybe can be brought back with a little bit of added fuel
I re-installed the plates, as there is no advantage to removing them at this time.
Ivan
http://ivansperformanceproducts.com/zx14.htm
I kinda got a kick out of it. Anyone that has removed the valves and tells you there is no performance gain down low is looney. I have no idea about higher RPM's, or A/F ratio.. But power down low is MUCH improved
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2006 Red ZX14: Brock pipe, PC3, Removed secondaries
2005 Red SRT10 Ram
  
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted June 07, 2006 02:52 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 7 Jun 2006 03:54
WTF?
That is pretty crazy. Notice no chart of plates removed with TRE, plates removed with PC installed, etc...
I mean, there needs to be some more work on this....
Also, the removal vs. stock shows a very obvious gain. I am sure that with proper mapping, any lean stumble would be eliminated.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 03:11 AM
What an idiot;. he conviniently left out the TQ curve with plates removed...I can tell you that the man is a moron.
1) There is NO hesitation with the plates removed
2) There is a TON of instant, GUT-WRENCHING POWER with the plates removed
He's only trying to sell his snake oil, hair tonic TR-JUNK. I'm not selling anything and have nothing to gain by telling you all the way it really is. Oh and BTW, where's the A/F curve he knew we were looking for?
Also, he starts the TRE test at 2K and the throttle plates removed test at 3K...with the missing TQ curve...what a rat bastard this guy is...one of us will put it on the Dyno and then post the more than HUGE TQ gain.
If I was ever to buy anything from him, now I certainly never will...GTR knows exactly what I mean, he no doubt saw the same thing I did when the throttle plates were removed...I don't need some snake oil salesman's dyno to feel that power.  
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FYYFF!!!
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted June 07, 2006 04:11 AM
Why does he use STD when most use SAE? I'd guess its to have bigger numbers. Also, to have a 2 HP deviation during a series of runs is not that uncommon... plus or minus.
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 04:57 AM
Red, I guess the other question would be...why does he show the TQ #'s on the charts with the throttle plates intact and no TQ #'s with them removed? And why do the runs start at 2 different RPM's I know the answer...if he performed his tests correctly and displayed his real findings.., no one would buy his POS...because the TQ numbers are HUGE, without his stupid snake oil. That prick must take us all for a bunch of dumbass idiots...I say, if he had nothing to hide, then he should have shared everything he found, not just select useless pieces of information. I'm sure he's readng this post...so this is what I have to say to him.  
I say this because I know for a fact he is 100% wrong and he knows what I mean...by playing around with his findings and not being truthful, he makes us out to be idiots, all to sell his stupid products. Hell, if OJ could get off and was guilty, anything can be twisted to be the "truth" huh?
Most of the Dyno tuners here frown on STD numbers...
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FYYFF!!!
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navigator
Expert Class
Posts: 308
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posted June 07, 2006 05:11 AM
Its a $69 quick fix. Fool the computer, make it think its in 6th all the time. Sort of a waste of all that computerized, fuel injected, electronic techno gadgetry that's already on the bike. You get what you pay for!
I think you smart guys are on the right track. Now if you will just finish what you started.
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Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.
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zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted June 07, 2006 05:13 AM
Edited By: zerMATT on 7 Jun 2006 06:17
I call bullshit too... those charts are crap! His first chart shows torque & rpm, then the next two charts drop that EXTREMELY IMPORTANT data. The moron's hiding something. What a loser...
By the way, his last chart *does* show that removing the secondary throttle plates do exactly what we suspect it to do. Look at the difference in those two HP cures? It's obvious that HP is coming in quicker at low rpm's with the secondaries removed. I bet he removed the torque curve because it showed similar, but even more obvious improvements at low rpm's.
He posted these charts this way to try to make everyone ONLY see peak HP, which means absolutely nothing when talking about secondary throttle plates. Removing the secondaries will not affect peak hp AT ALL, but it *should* affect when the power comes in at low rpm's... and that last chart proves it.
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 05:13 AM
The only thing we need to know to continue, is what the Dyno shows after the mod...the rest should be simple...pipe, PC3 and mapping.
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FYYFF!!!
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 05:18 AM
Ya Matt, he's hiding the truth...and the truth is that you don't need a fucking  TRE to wake the beast up...removal of the flies and a good dyno tune on a PC3 will give us all what we want.
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FYYFF!!!
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scificanada
Expert Class
Posts: 411
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posted June 07, 2006 06:25 AM
Funny that the guy who wants to make money says the FREE fix is no good, but his is Wonderful.
Waiting to see what Fair/Impartial/Honest testers say...
Waiting to see what BROCK, MUZZY etc say... these people I trust.
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Be a predator, not prey.
2006 Blue(the fastest colour) ZX14, Brock Ti Gen 3, Secondary Butterflies out, PCIII with Brock Map, Muzzy Frame Sliders.
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jw
Novice Class
Posts: 81
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posted June 07, 2006 06:37 AM
Edited By: jw on 7 Jun 2006 07:44
Until someone dyno's the machine without the plates and shows a difference, I don't necessarily NOT believe his charts.
I mean, why would he lie, when he KNOWS someone else is going to dyno this soon.
You also have to differentiate throttle response to an absolute increase in horsepower. Removing the plates will most likely (and obviously by your real world observations) improve throttle response, but once at WOT (which dyno testing is done), after the subthrottles open, the airflow should be about the same. (HP may be even better due to more turbulent flow at low air speeds)
As far as posting the torque curves, it's a simple calculation from the horsepower and RPM. Therefore, if horsepower curves are similar than the torque curves will be similar. You can't have the same horsepower curve and two different torque curves.
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TJ
Zone Head
Posts: 604
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posted June 07, 2006 06:40 AM
quote:
Funny that the guy who wants to make money says the FREE fix is no good, but his is Wonderful.
Waiting to see what Fair/Impartial/Honest testers say...
Waiting to see what BROCK, MUZZY etc say... these people I trust.
I'm not going to defend Ivan because I have never used any of his products and I don't know the guy. With that said, I don't think anyone has confirmed (on a dyno) that the FREE fix is actually a safe "fix".
Shame on Ivan for trying to make a buck. I'm sure Brock and Muzzy will give away their "fix" if they find one. After all, they are both non-profit orgs...
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted June 07, 2006 06:48 AM
Hey OJ wasnt guilty. He only killed to people and lead the police on a slow chase. Ha Ha, Boy what some people pull to make things go their way. This is funny.
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fastestbusaaround
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Posts: 7889
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posted June 07, 2006 06:51 AM
quote:
Until someone dyno's the machine without the plates and shows a difference, I don't necessarily NOT believe his charts.
I mean, why would he lie, when he KNOWS someone else is going to dyno this soon.
You also have to differentiate throttle response to an absolute increase in horsepower. Removing the plates will most likely (and obviously by your real world observations) improve throttle response, but once at WOT (which dyno testing is done), after the subthrottles open, the airflow should be about the same. (HP may be even better due to more turbulent flow at low air speeds)
As far as posting the torque curves, it's a simple calculation from the horsepower and RPM. Therefore, if horsepower curves are similar than the torque curves will be similar. You can't have the same horsepower curve and two different torque curves.
Until you have ridden the bike with the throttle plates removed you will not understand what has transpired here - trust me on this. Secondly, those plates remain closed under 5K so just imagine the difference with them removed....they only start to open at around 5.5K...unless the bike is started up from cold...drive the bike within 30 seconds of firing it up from cold and then see what I mean...you won't be buying no trees...
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FYYFF!!!
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jw
Novice Class
Posts: 81
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posted June 07, 2006 06:56 AM
quote:
Until you have ridden the bike with the throttle plates removed you will not understand what has transpired here - trust me on this. Secondly, those plates remain closed under 5K so just imagine the difference with them removed....they only start to open at around 5.5K...unless the bike is started up from cold...drive the bike within 30 seconds of firing it up from cold and then see what I mean...you won't be buying no trees...
No, I think the TRE is a stupid fix to a problem. Even if it does work on some other bikes, or not. And, I can't argue with someone whose done the mod and ridden the bike. You're right, if the subthrottle doesn't open until after 5.5K, or it's just cracked open, then there's your problem. Someone should hook up a voltmeter on the TPS if there is one on the subthrottles and find out.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
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posted June 07, 2006 07:16 AM
We're still patiently waiting for Ivan to contact us and provide us with his unit for impartial 3rd party testing.
Surprisingly, though he has no problem spamming the site, he has yet to get a hold of us...
here's the addy again:
webmaster@bikeland.org
I heard there was a bridge for sale down the street 
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted June 07, 2006 07:20 AM
I just read many articles on STD vs SAE.. SAE is calibrated at 77 degrees F. Whereas STD is calibrated at 60 degeees F. Does your bike run better in colder weather? usually yes. In general STD reads 1.044 or 4.4% higher than SAE. STD is usually used in the performance industries, Brock Racing, Muzzy, Stillen Performance etc. STD and SAE are identical except that STD ASSUMES that the bike is running in better air..
Does my bike run exceptionally better in the cold air and more sluggish in the day or heat yes. So in this way I think both correction factors are important. If you have an SAE dyno reading just multiply by 1.044 and you get std..
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zx9rmal
Novice Class
Posts: 75
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posted June 07, 2006 07:45 AM
I tend to believe the guys that have done the mod and are sharing their experience. If the mod didn't produce what they're saying, they would simply go back. From my years of having many bikes of mine on the dyno, I've learned that the dyno is merely a "tool" that is used for tuning and measures the output of a motor under specific conditions. A dyno chart won't necessarily show the increase in "practical" torque that these guys are experiencing under part throttle acceleration. Who whacks open the throttle at 2-3,000 rpm on the road, as is done during a dyno run?
My $.02.
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Mal Glanz
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
'12 ZX-14R
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gtracing
Expert Class
Posts: 159
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posted June 07, 2006 07:56 AM
Ok, think about this for a second. Most dyno's are done in 4th gear or higher right? If these butterflys function as we all think they do(limit power in lower gears), then of course there wouldn't be much of a gain on a dyno chart. Also, dyno'ing his mod in a higher gear seems pointless too b/c all it suposably does is fool the computer into thinking it's in a higher gear.
But again, think about this... If throttle plates allow more power in higher gears from the factory, then wouldn't it be beneficial for us to have that 6th gear map in place even in the lower gears with the secondary TB plates removed?
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2006 Red ZX14: Brock pipe, PC3, Removed secondaries
2005 Red SRT10 Ram
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 08:13 AM
Right Mal. And the only reason we need the Dyno, is to look at the A/F mixture to ensure corect mapping. The ride experience with the plates removed tells me all I need to know and the difference is so huge that a novice could see it in a heartbeat.
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FYYFF!!!
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jw
Novice Class
Posts: 81
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posted June 07, 2006 08:18 AM
From what I understand, the below 5K power loss is present no matter what gear you are in.
I don't follow the second sentence- "If throttle plates allow more power in higher gears from the factory, then wouldn't it be beneficial for us to have that 6th gear map in place even in the lower gears with the secondary TB plates removed?"
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navigator
Expert Class
Posts: 308
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posted June 07, 2006 08:25 AM
quote:
.But again, think about this... If throttle plates allow more power in higher gears from the factory, then wouldn't it be beneficial for us to have that 6th gear map in place even in the lower gears with the secondary TB plates removed?
Not necessarily. If the secondary plates are not opening fully until after 5 or 6k rpm the fuel map will be tuned for that even in the higher gears. Still need to know effect of fly removal on A/F ratio at low rpm in lower gears.
Looking at the hp curves that Ivan put up did not raise any red flags for me but then again we don't know what gear he dyno'ed in.
Has anyone spoken to Muzzy about this?
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Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.
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spalding12
Novice Class
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posted June 07, 2006 08:35 AM
aren't there any pictures of the process and the components in question here.
i'd, for one, love to see them.... please
thanks in advance
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 07, 2006 08:47 AM
There are in another thread in this forum. Author was gtracing but I forget the title. Should be easy to find. Its a simple process to perform.
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FYYFF!!!
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Nukedog
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted June 07, 2006 08:50 AM
Plates are controlled by rpm/throttle not gear position correct? Kinda like the Suzuki's?
The plate removal mod is poular on the Gix1K's...
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02 Busa...Turbo...
09 YZF-R6S...
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