redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted May 12, 2006 05:33 AM
 Edited By: redelk on 12 May 2006 06:34
STOP SPENDING MONEY ON YOUR BIKE!
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH! PLEASE STOP!
Power Commanders... Pipes... Filters... Braided brake lines... replacing 190/55 with 190/50 rear tires...
just STOP IT!
It looks like over 90% for the 10R owners here are missing out on the most important, yet least expensive modification they can ever make to their bike... the SUSPENSION!
There are a couple of points that need to be made first...
1. Like your engine, it can take up to 500 miles before your suspension is "broken in". Adjustments made during this period will likely not be the best (or the same) when it is broke in.
2. Before you touch a single adjuster, SET YOUR SAG!
3. Your sag should be checked every time you change tires.
4. If you change brands or SIZE, your sag WILL need to be CHANGED to accommodate the new size.
5. If your bike is over one year old, your fork oil will need to be changed AND the nitrogen in your rear shock will need to be recharged (yes, it can be done - that cover on the reservoir can be removed). This is not a "tip"... it is a MUST!
6. When you do service the forks, the shock really needs to be serviced at the same time.
On this thread, there are several links on tuning your suspension. They are informative and for the most part, easy enough for even someone like me to understand.
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=23222
Our road race team runs a 1999 Yamaha R6 with a 2000 motor (with over 2 seasons on it) in the Superstock Endurance class. We have put enough racing miles on this bike to go from NY to CA. With all the new bikes on the track, including 10Rs, GSXR 1K and R1 (as well as newer R6s and 636s), we still place well. WHY? SUSPENSION!
Even with a worn out motor and outdated geometry (not to mention carburetors), it is eeking out the best possible suspension set up that put our bike within reach of a podium, even when we are riding against not only newer bikes, but more talented riders.
SO PLEASE... stop spending dollars on your bikes and start spending some time with your suspensions. For the most part, these bikes are far more capable then the riding skills of 99% of the folks here (if not more). With a hand full of common tools and spending 15 minutes with your friends, you too can have a bike that is not only "race ready", but street safe as well.
You've had your bike long enough. It time you start "fondling her" in a way she will truly appreciate. Anything else you do before you take these steps is just "window dressing" and a total waste of money. In reality, anything you do before getting the suspension set up makes the bike WORSE, not "better".
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
   
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cptcrunch
Expert Class
Posts: 128
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posted May 12, 2006 12:00 PM
I am going to have to try some of this and get back to ya, I have all the other stuff pipe, pclll,
filter, I can say I wish i didn't have it but I do wish I had made some adfustments to my damping first
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if you cant ride it, kiss it, or eat it, what good is it...............
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zx12adam
Member
Posts: 878
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posted May 12, 2006 01:41 PM
Actually the most important mod a person can do is a trackday followed by a trackday, repeat.
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CBR1000RR
Best Literbike: Performance Bikes, Superbike, BIKE, MCN, Road Racing World, and Motorcycle USA
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k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
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posted May 12, 2006 04:02 PM
Edited By: k bryant on 12 May 2006 19:03
Pipe down now Pastor....  Though very important to set sag and service suspension, you still need to be able to take advantage of those settings/service by riding fast enough to appreciate it. Since I've seen you ride, you of course know that I am not refering to you.... Now XL is another story.....
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salsa1
Needs a life
Posts: 5971
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posted May 12, 2006 04:33 PM
Acceleration is close to Holiness......
...Second comandment after thou shall not kill yourself foolishly comes
2. thou shall accelarate as hard as you can......
prioritizing suspension settings is for cult members of circuit racing who frequent track days on sundays.....remember God loves us all..
Peace brother..
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Salsa1
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted May 12, 2006 09:22 PM
Edited By: redelk on 12 May 2006 22:26
You'd be surprised Mr. Bryant on my minuscule improvements over the past two years. Though I would still get completely left behind by you, fish and even XL (while still holding up swft), I have found that a remotely properly tweaked suspension has been one of the biggest confidence inspiring investments I have ever made on any motorcycle I have ever owned.
While working on my 12R suspension, I figured that I would go ahead a pop the cap off the shock and have the nitrogen recharged. The bike was a little under two years old and had about 35K on the odo. I understand that some pressure is lost when sticking the needle in (12R shocks do not have a Schrader valve like most shocks), but there was less then 60 PSI in the reservoir.
Since it is spec'd at 160 PSI (I believe), one can not help but believe that it won't have "some effect". Geez, I'm sure having almost a third of the spec'd pressure in the shock would have SOME effect on the compression dampening, right? Not to mention cavitation of the shock oil. Now if I didn't push my 12R that hard (which being a wuss rider... would have been impossible anyway), even I could tell the difference after I had it recharged. I'll still stick by my belief of the importance of suspension maintenance and how it should be done at least every 15,000 miles or so.
After spending months toying with the suspension on my 10R, I finally took it with us to a race event and had a suspension tuner look at it. Surprise! Even after setting the proper sag, I still had everything set way too stiff. After backing the compression and rebound back (similar to the settings recommended in a old XL post), it was like I had a completely different bike.
Now I will also admit that like most folks, I too have a few "non-suspension" related aftermarket goodies, like a slip on canister and filter on my bike. But after spending a couple of seasons baby sitting a group of guys that have the balls and skills to road race (which I am sadly and severly lacking in both, myself), it didn't take long to realize that the faster and more importantly SMOOTHER riders were not using brute power to accomplish their amazing lap times. It was all about the suspension set up and the CONFIDENCE it inspired. After all, how much "brute power" can you get out of a stock six year old R6 motor, like on our endurance bike?
I am also very guilty of "poking in the eye with a sharp stick" those that would spend thousands of dollars on full exhausts, PCIIIs, cams and thinner head gaskets. Just to eek out every bit of possible power out of their bikes. I thought it to be insanely stupid to spend that kind of money just to get a marginal increase in HP and a ever so slightly smoother torque curve.
Come Wednesday of next week, I will have no room to talk and will also be guilty of spending insane amounts of money (at least according to my wallet) to improve my bike. To make it even more "insanely stupid" then the "power junkie", my money will not make a single HP or change the torque curve one iota.
I had already spent a sizable (again, according to my wallet) chunk of change in dumping the '04 OEM front brake master cylinder and lines for a Brembo and Gafler Superbike lines. Almost immediately, I found more confidence in approaching a corner and braking later. Surprisingly enough, I eventually found myself using less brakes and carrying more corner speed then ever before. Go figure. get better brakes and use them less.
But that wasn't the move of "Grande Insanity". Next Wednesday, I will be getting my forks back with Traxxion's full Axxion Valve Upgrade (rebound/compression valves and springs) and a new Penske 8981 shock and spring. Considering my riding skill level, getting a 8987 shock and Traxxion's AK-20 cartridges would have not been insane... just stupid. Hell, at my level, getting any after market suspension is probably "stupid".
When you combine the cost of the Brembo and lines with the suspension parts, it starts getting damn near $2,000. Again, it didn't make a single change to the HP or torque. Throw in the cost of race plastics (just for track days), a set of MotoGP leathers, Held gloves and a new Arai helmet .... OUCH! That "sharp stick in the eye" hurts!
All the same, after my "failed experiment" of putting a shorter 7R swingarm on my '00 12R and playing around with tire sizes both front an rear, I've come to realize that for me personally, I am a Hell of a lot faster (and SAFER) on a half way properly set up 10R then I ever was on a 182 RWHP 12R.
Of course, I also could care less about who can do 170 MPH, when compared to where one can do 80 (in the twisties). Another example would be at a recent endurance race, Tyler McDonald, who was turning 1:42s during the Daytona 200, his endurance team (who also had Steve Atlas of RRW magazine riding with them) had a average lap speed of a little over 72 MPH at the track in Cresson, TX. That ain't much "fast", but it was a whole lotta "smooth".
Yes, they were riding the same R6 they ran at Daytona and our old R6 was lucky to run lap speeds in the mid 60's. Yet they took the overall win after 4 hours of racing and whacked all the liter bikes in the 46 bike field. The nearest liter bike was a R1 that finished four laps behind (and second overall). The nearest 10R was 10 laps back and finished fifth. Oh yeah... our guys finished 21st overall on our '99 R6 and were 18 laps back. Ah, but our team did finish fifth in class and was a mere 2 1/2 laps behind a class podium finish.
Sure, a 600 is probably faster in the real tight stuff, which is the type of roads I personally prefer, but I love my 10R so much, I'd rather dump the few dollars (and then some) in to it then get a 600. If for any reason, on public back highways, all the greatest twisties are joined by boring straight aways.
So when I read someone asking, "What's the best suspension settings", I can help but cringe. Since I'm bumping close to 240 lbs. (if not a little more) in full gear and am anything but fast (or smooth, for that matter), I know that the settings that might work for me would be totally screwed up for someone who might weigh less and is faster (God help you if you are slower than me).
One does NOT need to spend $1,500 on your suspension (remember, I'm one of those "insanely stupid guys" now with a stick in his eye), but I still think one would be just... stupid, if they didn't work out the suspension as part of one's "bike improvement program". For the most part, it would take less time to do that then it would to install a full exhaust system and in most cases, cost nothing (but a little time).
Even for those that prefer just haulin' ass in a straight line, they too have to remember... some of the greatest straight aways are joined by curves (unless your at the strip, of course).
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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kendo
Parking Attendant
Posts: 21
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posted May 13, 2006 12:37 PM
Any tweeks that tailor the stockbike to a individuals got to be worth the investment
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brobin01
Novice Class
Posts: 66
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posted May 13, 2006 05:36 PM
here's another idiot who owns a suspesion shop ......... I heard it all before .... there's are reason no one refills there shocks every year ..... THEY DONT @#$@#$ NEED IT !!!!!!
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kz2zx
Pro
Nobody in Particular
Posts: 1166
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posted May 13, 2006 05:58 PM
quote:
here's another idiot who owns a suspesion shop ......... I heard it all before .... there's are reason no one refills there shocks every year ..... THEY DONT @#$@#$ NEED IT !!!!!!
Maybe not a rebuild every year, but you know I definitely use all the travel on a stock suspension. So, I resprungand revalved and each year, I change the oil in the forks.
I think it matters.
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ASMA 47
WERA 147
www.dhowellbooks.com
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted May 13, 2006 07:04 PM
0.1% of riders would have their laptime impacted by an aged, neglected, badly misadjusted stock suspension. Load up on whatever goodies you want, and let the idealistic fools spout their blather. It's your bike, enjoy the experience as YOU see fit.
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted May 13, 2006 10:07 PM
Edited By: redelk on 13 May 2006 23:16
quote:
here's another idiot who owns a suspension shop ......... I heard it all before .... there's are reason no one refills there shocks every year ..... THEY DON'T @#$@#$ NEED IT !!!!!!
Don't own a "suspension shop" or have any affiliations with one. As the expense of paying those "shops" piled up on our team, I finally found someone "in the business" to show me how a simple minded idiot like myself, could do it myself. Thus I do everything short of a complete rebuild.
Besides, I've never personally needed to have a shock rebuilt. Even after putting 50K miles on my 12R and almost 70K on my 7R. We only do a "servicing" (not a full rebuild) once a year on the endurance bike and every one to two years on our various sprint bikes. Once the forks on the race bikes have been re-valved, we simply just change to oil as needed. On the few street bikes I've owned over the past 25 years, this will be my first aftermarket shock. It will also be my first re-valving of the forks on any of my bikes.
Since getting a shock recharged averages $10 and could possibly run as high as a whopping $25, I could see why some wouldn't want to do it.
quote:
0.1% of riders would have their lap time impacted by an aged, neglected, badly mis-adjusted stock suspension.
That has to be one of your best "fishing casts" in quite some time. That's why I love your comment back on 2/4/06....
quote:
The retail Ohlins stuff is the worst of the aftermarket shocks (ok, Fox is worse, but who's going there?). Penske is likely the best. Whatever you put on there is going to be so much better than the the oe pogo stick you will instantly notice the improvement.
Just a refresher, bovo...
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=19&TID=21570
Nice try, though.
It was your comments that was one of the reasons why I started to even look into a aftermarket shock in the first place. Thanks for the "knowledgeable" advice. I too hope I "will instantly notice the improvement".
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted May 13, 2006 11:39 PM
My prior comment was directed at hdl. Relax. In time, the pain in your nipples will subside.
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crip2nite
Zone Head
Posts: 820
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posted May 14, 2006 03:10 AM
Change fork oil every year??? C'mon now...really...haven't done it until my bikes hit about 20 grand...what a freakin' waste of money  I use the bike to commute back and forth to work every day and for fun on weekends...about the only thing I do is change the oil and lube the chain and I'm set to go.... Never a problem in the past and don't forsee any in the future! Yeah...keep the stealerships swimming in the hourly labor rates by posting this paranoia! Mass hysteria leads to waste of hard earned money that could be put to good use on mods! 
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'08 ZX-10R ~ GREEN ~
Long Island, NY
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TurboBlew
Moderator
BUSY DOING THE SCHIAVO
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posted May 14, 2006 06:29 AM
lol... those that shun suspension recommendations have never ridden a properly setup bike.
even so... its the simple things that make a HUGE difference. Lubing the suspension via the zerks is a good start.
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Official Charter Member of the RIDERS OF KAWASAKI MEMBERSHIP REVOCATION CLUB
Also a BadAss Internet Forum Moderator 4 Hire!! Come at me brah!
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted May 14, 2006 07:19 AM
That's why I said...
"I'll still stick by my belief of the importance of suspension maintenance and how it should be done at least every 15,000 miles or so."
If your putting less the 10K a year on your bike, sure, you might want to do it every other year.
There is no need to line your dealer's wallet. Changing fork oil is hardly rocket science. Yes, it helps to have a Pit Bull stand that lifts via the triple clamp or something similar, but beyond that, it can be easily be done in less than one hour. Getting a shock off is a tad more time consuming, but is even less "scientific" and can reasonably be done during a rear tire change. Admittedly, one would have to support the bike with common jack stands(or again, in some similar method) since a regular swingarm stand is of little use once the shock is off.
These are definitely "off season" or winter" projects. Might be kinda tough for someone in Miami, but not much of a stretch for someone who sees snow in December. All the same, both can be done during a rainy weekend. Not to mention the fact that all of it can be done for a similar cost of changing the engine oil. If one can remove and reinstall a front and rear tire, they can change the oil in their forks and get a rear shock recharged and a hell of a lot easier then installing a full exhaust.
Just like the "loose steering stem nut" issue discussed concerning A and B model 12R, one might be surprised what they might find while servicing one's suspension. In my case, it seemed that my rear suspension linkage bolts were a tad too tight from the factory and did not move as freely as it should. So much of assuming that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
For those that wants to "keep it simple" and cheap (since they pay the dealer to remove and reinstall their tires while they're changing your engine oil), then do the following,
1. set the sag, before adjusting anything
2. check your chain slack (too tight will restrict swingarm movement)
3. check your tire pressure
The whole point of all of this is that it is something ANYONE can do in their own garage (a little tougher if you live in a apartment complex) and does not take a fraction of the time or money one might expect.
THEN... spend money on mods with reckless abandon. As soon as I get this stick out of my eye, I'll start pokin' you with it again.
quote:
My prior comment was directed at hdl. Relax. In time, the pain in your nipples will subside.
Yeah? When will the teeth marks go away?
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There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
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posted May 14, 2006 07:29 AM
quote:
lol... those that shun suspension recommendations have never ridden a properly setup bike.
even so... its the simple things that make a HUGE difference. Lubing the suspension via the zerks is a good start.
Can't speak for the '05 or '06 models, but the '04 doesn't have any zerk fittings in the rear linkage like the 12R had. IMHO, all the more reason to check thing out on a somewhat regular basis.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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kz2zx
Pro
Nobody in Particular
Posts: 1166
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posted May 14, 2006 07:50 AM
quote:
Change fork oil every year??? C'mon now...really...haven't done it until my bikes hit about 20 grand...what a freakin' waste of money
The 636 (and now the 10R) is a dedicated racebike, Crip. It's got 6,000 race miles on it now and 0 street miles - I've changed the fork oil twice.
I put 10,000 (street) miles of hard twisties on my 10R in it's first year. The fork oil was changed when I changed the preload spacer and springs.
I my book its cheap, cheap insurance to keep metal out of the valves.
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ASMA 47
WERA 147
www.dhowellbooks.com
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crip2nite
Zone Head
Posts: 820
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posted May 14, 2006 09:57 AM
Ok...now I see...Being the fact that I can only ride my bikes back and forth to work when the weather is alright, and my many family commitments so only the occasional weekend, I usually put approximately only about 5,500 miles each year on the bikes, I can get away with far less maintenance on the damn thing. My Bad 
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'08 ZX-10R ~ GREEN ~
Long Island, NY
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crip2nite
Zone Head
Posts: 820
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posted May 14, 2006 02:07 PM
Edited By: crip2nite on 14 May 2006 15:30
  :milk       
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'08 ZX-10R ~ GREEN ~
Long Island, NY
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted May 15, 2006 08:04 AM
Oh please. I not good enough to leave teeth marks. Getting the shock off involves inserting the biggest steel rod that will fit though the swingarm pivot shaft. It's about 3/8". Then you put adjustable jackstands under the shaft and lower the bike onto it off the rear stand. The shaft will really want to bend so keep the stands as close to the bike as possible.
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Hells Dark Lord
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
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posted May 19, 2006 09:45 AM
might be difficult to do, but tis still far cheaper than full exhaust systems and stuff......Redelk is right Setting the suspension is the best thing to shave seconds off your time around a track, and to make the bike handle right. And set up is free if you do it yourself....
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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