zx12adam
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posted October 15, 2005 05:35 PM
 Edited By: zx12adam on 15 Oct 2005 18:45
ZX10R vs R1 The Saga Continues...
Acceleration:
Me(on the R1) and Eric_The_Jew(ZX10R) did some roll-ons on some open roads today, my R1 now broken-in with over 1000 miles and shift points picked out is completely stock, even the turn signals and rear fender(with paper tag). Eric's ZX10R also completely stock with only a few hundred more miles than mine. To start off I'm not loyal to any one brand(I have a ZX12, 954, and R1 sitting in my garage right now) and give nothing more than the facts and unbiased opinions. I'd also like to say there's a reason these two bikes are so close in mag test's drag races(within 1/100's of a sec at times) even though the spec sheets don't add up, the R1 usually makes close to the same peak hp but needing more rpms(less hp per rpm), has less torque, and weighs more by some 20lbs. But the spec sheets don't tell the whole story, about aerodynamics, rolling resistance, brake drag, etc... there's so many varibles that anyone who only look at a peak hp figure and says"that's all" is in my mind a fool.
Being about 25 lbs lighter than Eric with my leathers on pretty much cancels out the weight disadvantage of the portly R1 so I was barley able to pull away in top gear roll-ons and 2nd to 6th gear roll-ons. It's not like I tore away at an alarming rate, just slowly pulled ahead and away. So with similar gearing, the 10 making more hp PER rpm, and the two motors pushing about the same amount of weight I pull away? How? What made the difference? Aerodynamics? Rolling resistance? I don't know and I don't get it. All I can say is "spec-sheet riders" beware, the real world isn't flat.
Here's the weird part, after switching bikes, the lighter me on the lighter 10; heavier Eric on the heavier R1, I was still able to pull away but barley. Again in top gear roll-ons and 2nd to 6th runs at what looked like close to the same rate; hard to tell being in front.
All I can say is with these results the 10 and R1 are obviously very close in performance reguardless of what scales and dynos say. Roll-ons and runs like these aren't very complex, no launching, no real skill, just timing(which was perfect) and twist. If the 25 lbs and slight aerodynamic advantage of a smaller rider makes this kind of difference in performance then these two are obviously very close in acceleration. Just like in the mag tests.
Lap time talk
Mag tests lap the stock ZX10 on average faster than the stock R1. I think, and this is just my tarded opinion, the overall and individual gearing on these two bikes is close and similar to one another(tall), in 2nd to 6th gear runs I noticed the 10 shifted gears just before the R1, slightly shorter gearing/turns slightly less rpms, however I think 1 reason a stock 10 is capable of turning faster lap times on a roadcourse is because of more torque and more hp per rpms, a short stroke motor(R1) needs shorter gearing because it's hp is higher in the rev-range plus it turns a little more revs so it wouldn't hinder top speed in each gear by much. The 10 can handle the taller gearing better due to more torque and better hp with equal rpms whereas it's more of a handicap to the R1. Obviously an advantage for the 10 exiting corners. -1 front gearing to the R1 and it closes the gap. I don't see the 10 gaining as much corner drive with lower gearing, it's already putting down more than the tire can handle.
From what I've seen firsthand the nervous handling of the 10 puts it at a slight disadvantage, sort the suspension and add a dampner and I think this bike will still turn quick enough while being more stable, the gap widens again.
The R1 steers slower but is more stable, this usually doesn't result in slower lap times, just put more pressure on the bars, but doesn't feel as flickable in switchbacks. Today I ran though a few corners at over 150mph and it was as stable as my ZX12 while turning much quicker than the 12. To get an R1 to turn in faster like the 10 just get a set of tires with a slightly taller profile, alot of track guys prefer 180's instead of 190's, I know I do, and/or raise the forks 5mm, quickens the steering while keeping things under control. Want even faster turn-in? Just raise the forks to 10mm, might lose some stability. Tune as needed.
After riding these two bikes against each other back to back over and over all day all I can say is I love these damn things. Stock out of the box I call it a draw, too close to call. These things are infinately tunable, suspension, gearing, rider adjustments, etc... I say let's see what they're capable of before the mods start.
Stay tuned, next Sat. we are getting some back to back dyno runs just for shits-n-giggles, could be interesting but I don't expect any surprises.
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gunner
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posted October 15, 2005 07:12 PM
In days gone by I've whipped another bike badly and then traded bikes and whipped the other bike just as bad. Both 1150 Suzuki's with equal weight riders. The other rider wasn't that bad either. Simply put if the bike are anywhere near close the best rider will win every time. Sounds like you have Eric covered in the rider dept. I've not seem an R-1 keep pace with a 10R, but hell I've not seen everything. Sounds like you're not pickin sides either. Very interesting indeed.
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jimzx9r
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posted October 15, 2005 07:41 PM
It sounds like you're the real variable in this case...you could probably outrun your friend if you were on identical bikes.
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salsa1
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posted October 15, 2005 07:57 PM
Ok I will pick sides... the 10R Rocks big time and is comfortable (to me) for 100 mile rides or less which is all I need. The R1 is just a Yamaha....has less midrange punch and I don't want to own one ...so there ... plus really... same two specimen motors of same make, year and model will vary in HP due to manufacturing tolerances ... so just a comparison of one R1 and one ZX-10R is not enough to draw conclusions...plus ...did I mention I refuse to buy an R1? hehe..being unbiased is overated.... IF anybody perfers an R1 well get one I guess... I feel happy for ya...guess nothing wrong with another comparison; I would race one if I could to see for myself but would keep my 10R happily regardless...
I LOVE MY 10R..at 6700 miles I get wheelies in third if I tug at the handlebars.. yeah it's geared down -2 front + two rear ; steering damper and full Muzzy/power commander .. it's a blast to ride ... that much I am sure of... whoops did I miss the point??.... I like my 2004 ZX-10R A LOT ....
Nothing personal really..take care and have fun.
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ikezixxer
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posted October 16, 2005 10:40 AM
This is really weird...I did this EXACT same test. Only difference was...It was me and a friend, we are both around 245-250 (within 3 or 4 lbs of eachother). He has an 04 R1 with arata full ti system, BMC race filter, and have it dyno tuned with ram air @ a really good tuning place here, then he is -1 up from on the sprockets and his bike has about 4k miles so it is well broken in...I on the other hand have also an 04 model but a zx10r. All I have is a M4 slip-on with no dyno tuning and -1 sprocket...so he has the advantage of the PC3, the arata full system and its all tuned. My bike had around 1700 miles on it, so it was broken in but we all know the zx10r's get better after 2-3-4 thousand miles are on the ODO. We did all different roll-ons on the highway and he could not even stay within the same vacinity as me, we did a good 20-25 roll-ons throughout the whole evening and night, all of them planned and on an empty highway. From start to finish I would be at least 10 bike length ahead, of course puling away thr whole time. I even let him keep down 1 gear from me...so we were doing roll-ons with me in 2nd and him in 1st...I would be around 8k so I am guessing he would be around 10k in 1st for his R1...we would take off, he would be nose up to me, maybe 1-2 feet ahead for about 1-2 seconds...then I start pulling and once I hit 11k it was SEE YA time...so something must be up here...he rides well, and bought his bike new and broke it in via specs...i bought my bike used with 500 miles from an old guy and can just hope it was broken in properly.
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zx12adam
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posted October 16, 2005 03:48 PM
Didn't you also say in another thread that he only netted 140 rear wheel hp with all those mods and the front tire wouldn't even lift on the throttle in 1st gear? Your right, something's up here, obviously something's wrong with his R1(3cylinder?).
Or maybe the extra torque of the 10 just handles the extra weight of heavier riders that much better? I know a full Arata exhaust would eliminate the EXUP valve in the R1, taking away even more lowend and midrange torque, that coulda played a role also with all the extra weight.
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Eric_The_Jew
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posted October 16, 2005 05:02 PM
Edited By: Eric_The_Jew on 16 Oct 2005 18:03
Well, this has me just as puzzled as anyone else. I'd like to think Adam and I are both good riders, and the way we did these roll ons pretty much took the rider out of the equation. A monkey could whack a throttle wide open.
I would pull up beside Adam and we'd both get in the full tucked position. I would then beep my horn, and then we'd hit it. And believe me, we had it down to a science with hitting the throttles simultaneously. It was just really strange.....whatever bike Adam was on was the one that always pulled away. We were doing gear for gear roll-ons (i.e. 2nd gear on the R1 vs. 2nd gear on the 10). We tried pretty much every gear. It really seems that 30 lbs can make or break who wins.
Like Adam said, next Saturday will tell the tale when we do our "same dyno same day" test at Stock Mild to Wild in Jacksonville 
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Eric_The_Jew
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posted October 16, 2005 05:12 PM
Hey Adam, I sent you an email to your hotmail account detailing our dyno shoot out on Saturday.
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trenace
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posted October 16, 2005 05:32 PM
quote:
I would pull up beside Adam and we'd both get in the full tucked position. I would then beep my horn, and then we'd hit it. And believe me, we had it down to a science with hitting the throttles simultaneously. It was just really strange.....whatever bike Adam was on was the one that always pulled away. We were doing gear for gear roll-ons (i.e. 2nd gear on the R1 vs. 2nd gear on the 10). We tried pretty much every gear. It really seems that 30 lbs can make or break who wins.
Well absolutely.
F = ma (where f is force, m is mass, and a is acceleration) and, rearranging, a = f/m.
So with same force at rear wheel (if force is the same) then if mass is for example 5% less than acceleration will be 5% greater.
E.g., instead of acceleration of 20 mph per second, 21 mph per second.
Even just one mph extra gained each second translates to walking and then running away.
(This is a large part of why I'm taking about 90 lb off of my bike.)
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zx12adam
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posted October 16, 2005 05:34 PM
Edited By: zx12adam on 16 Oct 2005 18:46
That'll be funny if the R1 ended up with like 15 less hp!
Put THAT in all the "spec sheet riders" pipe's and smoke'em. 
I'm betting the 10 makes 5-8 more peak hp than the 1. Not that it matters, we already know they're close in balls out acceleration, you can tell by the way only 30 lbs makes such a diff, but it could be interesting.
Then all we need is two bathroom scales to weigh the bikes and then us with gear on.
I replaced my rear fender earlier tonite(looks alot better!) with a smaller aluminum bracket, just waiting on rear turn signals. The 1st mod I'm doing is gearing, -1 front to match the short stroke motor but I'm not doing that until after our dyno run Saturday. I might end up doing -1front/+1 or 2rear for JenningsGP. I really don't think I'll do too much to this bike, the exhaust is fine as is, I'll just adjust the gearing and experiment with suspension/tire combos so when I make it into my next trackbike in a year or two I'll know what does what. I'm thinking a 180 rear and raise the forks 5mm will make it cut corners like a razor blade. Or stick with the 190 rear and raise'em 10mm. For the track I'm more than likely sticking with the 180 Dragon slicks and if not too unsettled up 10mm with the forks. I'll find out as I go along.
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zx12adam
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posted October 16, 2005 05:41 PM
Edited By: zx12adam on 16 Oct 2005 18:43
quote:
quote:
I would pull up beside Adam and we'd both get in the full tucked position. I would then beep my horn, and then we'd hit it. And believe me, we had it down to a science with hitting the throttles simultaneously. It was just really strange.....whatever bike Adam was on was the one that always pulled away. We were doing gear for gear roll-ons (i.e. 2nd gear on the R1 vs. 2nd gear on the 10). We tried pretty much every gear. It really seems that 30 lbs can make or break who wins.
Well absolutely.
F = ma (where f is force, m is mass, and a is acceleration) and, rearranging, a = f/m.
So with same force at rear wheel (if force is the same) then if mass is for example 5% less than acceleration will be 5% greater.
E.g., instead of acceleration of 20 mph per second, 21 mph per second.
Even just one mph extra gained each second translates to walking and then running away.
(This is a large part of why I'm taking about 90 lb off of my bike.)
Glad I'm a lightweight.
If given the choice between engine mods and weightshaving mods on a bike I'd do weightshaving 1st everytime but it's so exspensive. Not only does it increase acceleration, it improves handling and braking too. Especially lighter wheels, that's rotational mass and unsprung weight.
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Eric_The_Jew
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posted October 16, 2005 05:44 PM
quote:
Well absolutely.
F = ma (where f is force, m is mass, and a is acceleration) and, rearranging, a = f/m.
So with same force at rear wheel (if force is the same) then if mass is for example 5% less than acceleration will be 5% greater.
E.g., instead of acceleration of 20 mph per second, 21 mph per second.
Even just one mph extra gained each second translates to walking and then running away.
(This is a large part of why I'm taking about 90 lb off of my bike.)
Yup....that's very true......I had just never realized that 30 pounds could be such a VISUAL difference. But like you said, just a small acceleration gain can pay big dividends and equal "walking and then running away."
And by the way, technically Newton's 2nd law can only be applied under conditions of constant acceleration.  But you did make a good point as always Trenace!
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trenace
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posted October 16, 2005 05:57 PM
Edited By: trenace on 16 Oct 2005 20:46
Thanks!
BTW, actually the law is always true at each instant... but one instant may vary from another, if force or acceleration vary with time. Still at each instant that relationship between force, mass, and acceleration holds.
Though the accelerations will change with time, the same percentage relationship in accelerations will hold even as accelerations drop off as force (or net force) decreases. In other words, if your bike is 5% lighter, even though acceleration is much less at say 170, it's still 5% better acceleration assuming no change in net force than if you weren't lighter.
(Where that might be an oversimplication is tire slip can increase with decreasing weight on the rear tire, where traction limits of the tire are being approached or exceeded. So for example, suppose two bikes each have motors producing 300 hp at 200 mph while having the same aero drag, but one bike and rider combo somehow weighs only 200 lb total while the other bike/rider combo totals 600 lb. In this instance the lighter bike would not accelerate three times quicker from being 1/3 the weight. The equation would still be true, but the force would be less due to tire slip -- a lesser percentage of the power would go to thrust and more to heat. However at lesser speeds generally speaking the bike being lighter doesn't in itself reduce the thrust of the rear tire. But to be complete, sometimes that can be the case.)
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gunner
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posted October 16, 2005 07:10 PM
Eric........ The only way you can make the weight thing up is
A. Never eat = Not a good thing
B. Bigger motor = Cost alot
C. Drop a tooth up front and never tell = Cheaper by a long shot.
I'm changing to a 520 chain this week on my 10 and droppin 1 up front and picking up 1 or 2 out back. Oh and giving it a shot of timing for good measure.
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Eric_The_Jew
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posted October 17, 2005 06:35 AM
quote:
Eric........ The only way you can make the weight thing up is
A. Never eat = Not a good thing
B. Bigger motor = Cost alot
C. Drop a tooth up front and never tell = Cheaper by a long shot.
I'm changing to a 520 chain this week on my 10 and droppin 1 up front and picking up 1 or 2 out back. Oh and giving it a shot of timing for good measure.
Gunner
I'm definitely looking into the -1 mod. That should put me out in front until Adam decides to do the same 
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Eric_The_Jew
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posted October 17, 2005 06:40 AM
quote:
(This is a large part of why I'm taking about 90 lb off of my bike.)
Damn....how did you get 90 lbs off of your 12?? (i'm assuming you're referring to the 12). When I had my 12, it was big, big money just for me to lose roughly 30!
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gunner
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posted October 17, 2005 07:54 AM
Eric.........Trenace has spent the BIG, BIG, BIG money to lose that weight. What he has done is create what Kawasaki should have done to the 12R. Trenace will have the ultimate 12R in the states. The only others in the world that come close are the SP12 stuff in Germany. Just amagine all the power of the 12 and the weight of the 10 and then He's addressed the rest of the handling issues as well.
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gunner
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posted October 17, 2005 08:02 AM
By the way Eric you're lucky to have Adam's bike to measure from when it comes to your mods. Be sure and only change one bike at a time, and go out and race. That way you guys won't get lost and keep gaining ground on everyone else. In days gone by me and my best bud done this and we always had the fastest shit around. These are real life gains and not just dyno numbers when you do it that way. I've had motors that made huge numbers on the pump but wouldn't run down the track!! BIG numbers are one thing but how the motor runs down track is how she runs. You will be surprised how a simple 1 or 2 degee ignition change will change things in this department. Actually a palm pilot and a few maps that can be changed road side would be better than days spent on a dyno.
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Eric_The_Jew
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posted October 17, 2005 09:36 AM
Edited By: Eric_The_Jew on 17 Oct 2005 10:37
quote:
By the way Eric you're lucky to have Adam's bike to measure from when it comes to your mods. Be sure and only change one bike at a time, and go out and race. That way you guys won't get lost and keep gaining ground on everyone else. In days gone by me and my best bud done this and we always had the fastest shit around. These are real life gains and not just dyno numbers when you do it that way. I've had motors that made huge numbers on the pump but wouldn't run down the track!! BIG numbers are one thing but how the motor runs down track is how she runs. You will be surprised how a simple 1 or 2 degee ignition change will change things in this department. Actually a palm pilot and a few maps that can be changed road side would be better than days spent on a dyno.
Well said man. I look for Adam and me to do quite a bit of testing in the future. Probably the 1st thing both of us will do is the smaller countershaft sprocket. When we do our back to back dyno runs on Sat i'll see if the guy will overlay both of our graphs on the same page. I think this will be interesting to see two TRUE bone stock bikes back to back on the same dyno and dispel the motorcycle magazine "ringer" idea. Hey gunner, did that guy you referred to me ever find some Marchesini wheels??
Trenace, i'd like to see some pics of your bike!
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trenace
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posted October 17, 2005 09:49 AM
I'll post pics when everything's together and I get a camera (I guess a disposable will do and supposedly the Walgreen's can give a disc with jpegs, never done it though.)
Not everything is in yet including a lot of important stuff -- e.g. no pistons yet, no swingarm, no Marzocchi forks, not the race upper cowl, etc; and there's other stuff that's in but not installed yet, e.g. haven't put the Kevlar/CF fuel tank in because I wanted it painted but have been waiting on the fairing since it would be painted at the same time, that sort of stuff... so the 90 lb is an expected total but not put into effect yet!
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Eric_The_Jew
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posted October 17, 2005 09:57 AM
quote:
I'll post pics when everything's together and I get a camera (I guess a disposable will do and supposedly the Walgreen's can give a disc with jpegs, never done it though.)
Not everything is in yet including a lot of important stuff -- e.g. no pistons yet, no swingarm, no Marzocchi forks, not the race upper cowl, etc; and there's other stuff that's in but not installed yet, e.g. haven't put the Kevlar/CF fuel tank in because I wanted it painted but have been waiting on the fairing since it would be painted at the same time, that sort of stuff... so the 90 lb is an expected total but not put into effect yet!
Trenace....i'm sure with your attention to detail we can expect an Excel spreadsheet detailing each individual item's weight loss/gain in both metric and SAE units, right? And i'm not messin' with ya, i'd really like to see something like that. I considered making a spreadsheet with my 12's weight loss mods, but when I sold it and got the 10 that kinda went out the window.
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gunner
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posted October 17, 2005 10:12 AM
I don't know if he ever did get any wheels or not. By the way Eric I'll be sharing what I learn about this 10R all along the way with all the guys. So far I'm impressed with it, but it's only got 350 miles on it so what do I know eh? One thing I know already is Sidewinde Trimetal sprockets aren't cheap But, If you're going to do a 520 on the 10 the best sprocket made is what need to be used without a doubt. They also have a 16,000 psi chain for the 520 conversion.
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zx12adam
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posted October 17, 2005 11:25 AM
Eric do you want me to wait on doing the -1 front gear change until after you do? I'm thinking about ordering but won't install until after you do and we run'em again. Just to see how much ground it makes up. It made a big diff with my 954, that plus a slip-on at the same time and I went from losing to that built-up 929 I told you about to walking all over it.
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Eric_The_Jew
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posted October 17, 2005 06:08 PM
quote:
Eric do you want me to wait on doing the -1 front gear change until after you do? I'm thinking about ordering but won't install until after you do and we run'em again. Just to see how much ground it makes up. It made a big diff with my 954, that plus a slip-on at the same time and I went from losing to that built-up 929 I told you about to walking all over it.
I would just go ahead and order it....i'll be ordering mine soon. I still want to do at least one more roll-on session before we do the change though.....we should have time for that on the way to Jax on Saturday. Hey, did you call stock mild to wild yet??
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Eric_The_Jew
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posted October 17, 2005 07:50 PM
Edited By: Eric_The_Jew on 17 Oct 2005 20:53
Here's the rear wheel driving force versus MPH graph from Sport Rider. http://www.gixxer.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1820522&an=0&page=0#1820522 Scroll down to the bottom of the page to see it. R1 is the blue line, zx10 is the green. As you can see, the R1 owns the 10 in most of the gears, despite its torque disadvantage. If someone can post the image, please assist
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