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BIKELAND > FORUMS > DRAGBIKE ZONE.com > Thread: Disconnecting the Commander??? NEW TOPIC NEW POLL POST REPLY
Paul2281


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Posts: 147
posted March 09, 2012 11:13 AM        
Disconnecting the Commander???

I have this 02 zx12 that sal built...I think it`s a 1287 but he wouldn`t tell me the spec.`s of it...
If I disconnect the Power Commander from it what map will it be running on??? He did say he did something to the ECU,I think something with the timing... I`m just trying to eliminate any problems by checking first to see if the power commander is ok... He did a little bit of his real world tuning on it he said...But still only runs 149mph in the 1/4 mile with 17/51 gearing,shifting at 12,2 on the shift light and 200 lb. rider...Same no matter what clutch is in it,3 stock springs and 3 heavy duty...Lockup with a lot of weight on the arms just to make sure she wasn`t slipping on the big end,and NO lockup with HD springs....
Will the ECU just have a ZERO map in it??? Or no telling???

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almost_les


Zone Head
Posts: 590
posted March 11, 2012 02:29 AM        
if you disconnect the power commander it will run as if it had a a zero map. the ecu work is just a reflash to give it more rpms and added ignition. it will most likely run lean. kinda depends on what the current power commander map is. real world tuning is a long process of fine tuning. nothing more than baby steps to get it dead on. a real world map from bike A may not always perform as well on bike B. it all comes down to a proper data logging setup combined with a proper way to measure performance ( quarter mile, gps, etc...)

keep in mind i had power commander issues last year that just turned out to be a corrupt map file. sometimes starting over by downloading a new zero map and working in baby steps is whats best for the bike, just takes time and a proper data logging setup.

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Paul2281


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Posts: 147
posted March 11, 2012 06:56 AM        
Thank you thats what I was wondering...I`ve run against my friends stock zx12 and it runs right with my ace perf. motor zx12....Something isn`t right somewhere....
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zxboy


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Posts: 292
posted March 13, 2012 06:17 AM        
149 isn't bad in the 1/4 mile !!! What ET's you running ? How's the chassis set up ??
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Paul2281


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Posts: 147
posted March 13, 2012 06:32 AM        
9.27`s with a 68"wb,single stage lockup,200lb. rider...motor is supposed to be a 1287,some sort of cams,supposedly a ported head ,1.49 60leaving @ 8k throwing out the lever....perf. rear shock ,17/52....It ran 9.4`s@145mph before this work...A/F is at 12.8...Any ideas???
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NINJA12


Needs a job
Posts: 3308
posted March 13, 2012 09:43 AM        
Are you going threw a lot of clutches? check your setup.
8k and throwing the lever should flip or do waaay better than 1.49 on a 68" wb.
Sounds like clutch issues to me, but it could be rubbing on the undertail.
Sal has a rep for making HP, I'd check for other problems first.
Everyone rides different but I was 1.46 - 1.49 at 64" leaving at 5K,
also 200lbs at the time.

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Paul2281


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Posts: 147
posted March 13, 2012 12:12 PM        Edited By: Paul2281 on 13 Mar 2012 19:52
I`m not new at this....I know how to tune a clutch...No I`m not going though clutch plates at all...My rear shock is set up perfect...It squats on the launch with no rubbin of the under tail...My front forks are strapped down...It just feels like it`s not making any power off the line no matter what I do...I`ve tried every clutch setup people have suggested I try...No lock up,to hd springs,3 stock and 3 hd,to a lockup with lots of weight on the arms so we know its locking up and not slipping....Other that 4 more mph and 2tenths more in e/t it really doesn`t feel like it`s making any power...This chassis is the same as when I had a stock motor and it worked excellent...I got the rear shock from NOX, he even gave me some tips on the lock up tune....I started at leaving at 5000rpms with a 1.60` 60`...Then went to 6500 60` was 1.53....7500 @1.49...I guess I could add a couple teeth to the rear so I can leave at a lower rpm...I`ve heard of too much porting on the intake causing this to happen....I don`t race lsr type racing,1/4mile only,so everything has to happen in 1320`,first 60` being the most important...If I take it out on the highway is starts to haul ass once it gets Going,but it takes more than a 1/4mile to get going....Maybe the cams need to be degree`d differently??? I have no idea where they are at now....Everyone seems to belive its the clutch or my riding....I`ve eliminated the clutch,it`s NOT the clutch...It just won`t get moving out of the hole....Motor runs smooth,I ride on the street all the time....No popping or spitting,it just takes a while for it to get going at the track off the line....One thing I have not done is have it dyno`d...I paid to have it tuned from sal`s Real World Tune...I put a WEGO on it and showed 11.5,so I tuned that out to 12.8 now...Should I put it back to 11.5??? Maybe the ports are soo big it needs that much fuel???
Thanks..

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Shane661


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Posts: 11491
posted March 13, 2012 01:42 PM        Edited By: Shane661 on 13 Mar 2012 20:49
"Other that 4 more mph and 2tenths more in e/t it really doesn`t feel like it`s making any power..."

What is the combined weight? Looks like 725 lbs +.....

Do you think it makes less power than a stock motor? Apparently not, since you have gained at least 4 mph and .20 in the 1/4. I've seen a stock motor go 1.50 @ 61"....on a hand clutch.

Shane

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Paul2281


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Posts: 147
posted March 13, 2012 02:38 PM        
"Do you think it makes less power than a stock motor?"
Apparently not Shane since it`s running 4more mph than it did with a stock motor....
But he advertise`s it will run 21 mph in the 1/4mile...(quote)".Average Performance Gains: 21+mph in the 1/4 mile and 29+mph Top Speed."....
Weight??? Probably 20 30lbs lighter than stock....If that...Run yours and see if it runs 8.9`s @160mph in the 1/4mile...

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Shane661


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Posts: 11491
posted March 13, 2012 02:52 PM        Edited By: Shane661 on 13 Mar 2012 22:05
quote:
Weight??? Probably 20 30lbs lighter than stock....If that...Run yours and see if it runs 8.9`s @160mph in the 1/4mile...


Yes, 20 -30 lbs lighter than stock will put you at about 725 lbs.

As far as running my bike in the 1/4, will do! I have already ran 150 mph on pump gas, footshifting, swb....while tuning. Sal told me that our motors are the same.

As far as 21 mph in the 1/4 mile...no way that is going to happen if you were already running 145. 145 is great for a guy your size on a stock motor with pump gas (I ran about 140). But with race gas, I could see 12 or so, if properly dialed in and ridden.

Shane

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chavcat


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Posts: 518
posted March 13, 2012 06:11 PM        
Paul - you are going through the traps in 6th correct? What is the rpm at the traps?
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Paul2281


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Posts: 147
posted March 13, 2012 06:33 PM        Edited By: Paul2281 on 14 Mar 2012 01:46
No, 5th gear, not seeing the shift light at the stripe set at 12,2k per sal....17/52
this is a 9.25 time slip,
1.506 60`
3.92 330`
5.957 1/8 mile
@120.95
7.732 1000`
9.255 1/4mile @147.09, 2011 @8.29pm

Not throwing anyone under the bus, just trying to figure this out....

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chavcat


Zone Head
Posts: 518
posted March 13, 2012 06:49 PM        
17/48 with 3 heavy springs in clutch, pump gas
1,540 60'
3.932 330'
5.887 660'
@124.93
7.607
9.056@154.29
It seems like your bike is not making hp for some reason?

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Paul2281


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Posts: 147
posted March 13, 2012 07:32 PM        
Thanks for the reply back....I`ve tried your clutch setup too with no difference in perf....I`ve raced numerous types of street bike/drag bikes and no the feeling certain changes in the motor should feel like....I never felt anything with this one...
Nobody thinks that someone can make a mistake....I`m not trying to dog anyone out...I just can`t afford to do this all over again...

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almost_les


Zone Head
Posts: 590
posted March 13, 2012 10:54 PM        
just a shot in the dark here, but what is your kill time between shifts?
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Shane661


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Posts: 11491
posted March 14, 2012 03:59 AM        Edited By: Shane661 on 14 Mar 2012 12:55
quote:
17/48 with 3 heavy springs in clutch, pump gas
1,540 60'
3.932 330'
5.887 660'
@124.93
7.607
9.056@154.29
It seems like your bike is not making hp for some reason?


Isn't your setup much lighter than Paul's? What is your weight? Looking at Paul's bike, it must be 520 lbs or more in race trim, and he must be around 220 suited. That's 740 lbs of bike and rider to move.

To give an idea, my 14 ran about 145 mph on pump gas before I lightened it up. My bone stock Gen 2 Busa went a 143 mph best, with Rick onboard. My 12R with a pipe ran 140-141 consistently, with me at around 240 suited.

When you are chasing something like this, start with the basics. Make sure your tune is proper, through the whole rev-range, not just WOT. Make sure you have the bike geared properly, and that the rpm and gearing match (no slip). Find out how much you and the bike really weigh. There are a million "possible" problems, but at the end of the day you have to take physics into account as well.

Shane

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Paul2281


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Posts: 147
posted March 14, 2012 06:29 AM        
quote:
just a shot in the dark here, but what is your kill time between shifts?

I have it set at 50ms.

Shane,
So take your`s out to the 1/4 mile and YOU run it and see what happens...If our motors are built the same than your`s should run faster than mine right???? Put your physic`s to the test....

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Shane661


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posted March 14, 2012 06:43 AM        Edited By: Shane661 on 14 Mar 2012 13:48
quote:
quote:
just a shot in the dark here, but what is your kill time between shifts?

I have it set at 50ms.

Shane,
So take your`s out to the 1/4 mile and YOU run it and see what happens...If our motors are built the same than your`s should run faster than mine right???? Put your physic`s to the test....


Paul, there is no putting "my" physics to the test. If you have a heavy bike/rider combo it will go slower than a much lighter one...all things being equal and assuming proper setup. Why don't you put a good lightweight jockey on your bike and see for yourself? It isn't a theory, it's fact.

Going faster on my bike isn't going to prove anything to you. I imagine you would then just suspect that my motor was "special". If you think your motor is way down on power, put it on a good dyno with load control and find out. Be sure to compare it to some other known bikes on the same dyno. If it turns out to be down on power, or poorly tuned, you will see these results and you won't have to guess about it anymore. Then you can search for the cause.

Like I say, many possibilities. But start with the basics.

Shane

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Paul2281


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Posts: 147
posted March 14, 2012 08:39 AM        
Putting a light rider on any bike is just common sense on what`s going to happen Shane..I`m an average weight rider with an average ZX12 bike(a little lighter than average)..It`s my bike and I`m the rider and I was told what my bike would do with it`s current setup with me riding it,with the real world tuning done to it,not some 130lb. rider,and have to get it re-tuned because I live in Central fl. and not south fl....
My bike is lighter than the average zx12 for sure...so it should run close to the advertised added mph with the real world tune I paid for....
Run your bike and see what it does.....We are the only 2 1287s(I think mine is a 1287) that could run in the 1/4mile,you just haven`t done it....If yours runs about the same we`ll know whats up....Put your stock wheels back on it too....

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Shane661


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Posts: 11491
posted March 14, 2012 09:12 AM        Edited By: Shane661 on 14 Mar 2012 16:23
My point about the weight is that you cannot compare your #'s to what another guy posts...if the other guy's bike is lighter, and he is too. For example SmokinZX14 has been 161 mph on his 14R, and he is nearly 80 lbs lighter than me. I know I can't equal his speed with equal setup. So, if my bike goes 156 with me on it, I accept that, and I won't call my motor a lemon. I might have to lose some weight from the bike, or myself, or change the setup or whatever if I want to run the big speeds that Smokin does.

Paul, if you want to see what's up with your bike, put it on the dyno. Then you will know how it fares power and tune-wise. If it makes good power, with a good tune, then you know to look elsewhere for the issue, right? Otherwise all the guessing in the world isn't going to help.

All of the speculation ends when you get it on the dyno with a good tuner. It either makes power, or it doesn't. I know you are a bit apprehensive about putting the bike on a dyno, but a good operator will not hurt your bike.

Shane

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Paul2281


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Posts: 147
posted March 14, 2012 10:25 AM        
Forget it Shane.....I`m not going to get into this on a public forum,I could get carried away with some things...You know what I`m talking about.You know my email....There is no other guys bike but yours.....And we weight about the same.....

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Shane661


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Posts: 11491
posted March 14, 2012 10:34 AM        Edited By: Shane661 on 14 Mar 2012 18:06
I was referring to the #'s that Chavcat had posted about his bike.


I'm giving you suggestions to help you find the reason your bike is not going as fast as you think it should. Whatever my bike runs with a different rider, different clutch, different weight, different setup...doesn't mean anything. As mentioned, It has already ran 150 mph, footshifted and untuned, with me on it, at swb, with the stock wheels. It's not going to slow down with wheelbase, 50 lbs lighter, race fuel, tune and an airshifter. I'd be happy to see mine go 155-156 mph running race fuel, with me on it. Are you looking for more mph than that?

My final advice, again, is to get your bike on a dyno and see what kind of power it is making. It really is that simple. If it won't make good power with a good state of tune, then you have found the smoking gun. If it makes power, look to other areas to improve your performance. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Shane

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entropy


Moderator
Posts: 8671
posted March 14, 2012 11:19 AM        
good advice, Shane
____________
This moderator uses moderation in moderation

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SteddyTeddy


Pro
Posts: 1664
posted March 14, 2012 11:33 AM        
From your timeslip your making right at the same power as my bike. Your 60' and 330 times need to come down to see more MPH. Your 330' times are slower than mine for the same 60'. I'd put more static to it. At 8k and 17/51 you should be rocketing out of the hole!
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KZScott


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high on speed
Posts: 7154
posted March 19, 2012 07:13 PM        
any video?

____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT rubber, Pump Gas NA..... turbo 8.47 @ 164
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R NA 1: 222.04 1.5: 226.39 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB

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