salsa1
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posted July 25, 2006 07:03 AM
 Edited By: salsa1 on 25 Jul 2006 08:21
Wide band a/f monitors
Anyone use a wideband A/F monitor?
Seriously thinking of buying one instead of paying $300.00 a pop for a dyno session.
it should work if you have a power commander to adjust fuel...hoping I can become my own tuner.. anyone take this route yet?
asking for experience on this..
dynojet sells one http://www.hardracing.com/Misc/WideBand.htm
and so does Innovate Motorsports "LM-1" http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm1.php
Let me know ;appreciate it...
maybe some members here with powercommanders / fuel control have thought of doing the same...
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navpreet318
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posted July 25, 2006 08:43 AM
buy the innovate one...its way better....and if you use a laptop to datalog your session ocassionally you'll be able to have a sampling rate in excess of 20.....
as opposed to the dynojet's unit which has a max of 10....
innovate units are professional units.....just buy one with the rpm accessorie...and you'll be able to attach 5 other parameters to it...like throttle position and temperature etc....
i'm getting one...though i'm getting it damn cheap....350$ only shipped....coz the tuner here in india had ordered a batch of 50 units and thats why he got it damn cheap....
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Lorcan
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posted July 25, 2006 11:26 AM
I've been using a Wideband Commander for about a year and love it.
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salsa1
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posted July 25, 2006 01:12 PM
Edited By: salsa1 on 25 Jul 2006 14:17
Hi Lorcan do you have documented results for yourself... been reading just lateley that a "4 Gas EGA EC997 " is a true way to go...
And that dynojet tunning centers and thus all 02 sensor type devices using exaust gases like the LM-1 just give ya wrong misleading information..???
Now I wonder..read this guys...what ya think sounds legit...
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Quote:
So, conclusion?
Using an oxygen sensor to display an A/F ratio is incorrect, we would NEVER sell an O2 sensor and claim that it show's A/F Ratio - because it is NOT A/F ratio.
It's a cheap, (but costs a lot) fragile, moisture and lead intolerant sensor that makes a graph and leads tuners off and away from best power and tuning.
http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_ignition_timing_tech.html
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salsa1
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posted July 25, 2006 01:24 PM
This info has me wondering cause I just got dynoed by a dynojet tuning center 3 weeks ago; went from 148 to 158 hp on the dyno (10 hp!!) and got no higher mph gain at the dragstrip 2 days ago...
Must say I am very dissapointed and suspicious now ..
the article in the link above is making a lot a sense right now...granted the heat at the track was 100 degrees (2 days ago) versus about 80 degrees before (when I got same top end mph at end of 1/4 mile) but still....
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salsa1
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posted July 25, 2006 01:29 PM
Edited By: salsa1 on 25 Jul 2006 14:36
I have lost confidence in using a dynojet or an 02 sensor device like LM-1...technically shocked that it is possible all guys with powercomanders and pc3 are taken for fools...I assume there is some value to dynojet or it would not be used.. ??!!
Any one care to comment..I believe I will be looking for a EC997 Low Inertia Dyno with 4 gas EGA soon... very controversial this deal...so much money people spend on powercommanders ect ..
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Quote:
Tuning for maximum performance? A dj dyno is an exercise in futility.
If you don't care about performance? Use a dj dyno. If you care about
performance, use an EC997 Low Inertia Dyno with 4 Gas EGA.
Simple fact.
https://www-auth.cs.wisc.edu/lists/vfr/2001-July/msg02360.shtml
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Salsa1
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Megabyte
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posted July 25, 2006 02:46 PM
Quote
Tuning for maximum performance? A dj dyno is an exercise in futility.
If you don't care about performance? Use a dj dyno. If you care about
performance, use an EC997 Low Inertia Dyno with 4 Gas EGA.
Simple fact.
https://www-auth.cs.wisc.edu/lists/vfr/2001-July/msg02360.shtml
/Quote
If all this is true then we've all been sold a bill of goods...
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ninja12
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posted July 25, 2006 07:31 PM
A Dyno is a tool, just like anyother tool the operator is the key to using it wisely.
Any good operator knows that you can lean a motor down to make good dyno
numbers but will not show on the track. Once you have a good dyno map,
use the track to fine tune your engine with MPH as your guide.
IF they didn't work, every major race team would not be using them.
A dyno and data logger like the lm-1 will show you so much info that ever
a novice will gain power.
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entropy
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posted July 25, 2006 11:11 PM
the lm-1 or the wideband (both O2 sensor-based) used in conjunction with dyno time will help you for 1/4mi or mile if you are patient and careful.
Nav, note that my lm-1 has a sampling rate of 12s/sec, maybe the newer models have a higher rate, WBC's are 10s/sec.
I have used the LM-1 in conjunction with DJ250 results on my bike for 1/4 mi. I find that combo very useful.
DaveO uses a LM-1 and has tuned his NA Busa to get 220mph+ at Maxton.
O2-based sensor info useless?, i don't agree. How many gazillion cars are on the road with closed loop O2 sensor systems, getting WAY hi mpg, AND MOJO hp???
4 gas dyno better that DJ250 dyno tuning?
Houston's Metric MC (my Bud Andy) got a 4 gas dyno a few mo ago and he loves it; haven't had my bike on it yet.
One thing, doing careful load controlled tuning on the 4 gas (or the DJ250) does shred tires, yep. Is the 4 gas better for fine-tuning? Andy sure thinks so
Do listen to this man below; he's on the money!
quote:
A Dyno is a tool, just like another tool the operator is the key to using it wisely.
Any good operator knows that you can lean a motor down to make good dyno
numbers but will not show on the track. Once you have a good dyno map,
use the track to fine tune your engine with MPH as your guide.
IF they didn't work, every major race team would not be using them.
A dyno and data logger like the lm-1 will show you so much info that ever
a novice will gain power.
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salsa1
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posted July 26, 2006 05:40 AM
Edited By: salsa1 on 26 Jul 2006 09:13
My expectations were very high with new full system Muzzy exhaust and 10 more hp showing on the dyno... I understand data to a competent point as my life as an engineer revolves around data... just does not add up to me how a 10 hp documented improved gain would not show at the track?? (heat of the day and ram air were huge nullifying factors?) .. ...I can buy the LM-1 with rpm kit which is highly praised and tweak my fuel ratio for real street runs.. not sure what else can be done with it at this point ...
Appreciate info / comments ; I am looking for technical conclusions and info. preferably a detailed scientific explanation but I can understand o2 sensors do have value when so many people and racing outfits use it...
. Dynojet tuner gave me 13:1 ...but the dynojet dyno versus the EC997 Dyno with 4 Gas EGA is differs on the ram air factor which the dynojet dyno does not compensate for? ..whatever..compensating for 100-140 mph air is important I would believe...not sure how EC997 does it (if it does?) but is advertised as a better tunning tool and will try to find out more on it soon....
I will likely buy the LM-1 ($429.00) and experiment tweeking in junction with track /street data results (ram air will be considered with real world data log runs) or go directly to a "EC997 Low Inertia Dyno with 4 Gas EGA " ...would prefer to tune myself succesfully and be able to buy racing fuel or compensate for any modification I ever need to do...
I sure won't go back to a DJ tunning center and pay $300.00 for an incomplete service that has no 1/4 mile improvements; ... I expected direct results for $300.00;... took less than two hours labor....yea I know the dyno is spendy...
Anyone that wants to can buy a o2 sensor and LM-1 data logger and be way ahead of a $300.00 DJ tuning session I gather now... There is a learning curve to consider but I believe can be done...
I should have a "good map now at least to work from" and my powercommander allows for tweeking fuel delivery on my own...so all is not lost.. Thanks for info guys....
Just been disapointed so far...but am learning!!... got a life besides dragracing for fun ya know.... lol.
well.. life goes on.....
Thanks!!
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entropy
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posted July 26, 2006 09:00 AM
Salsa1,
where on "EARTH" are you located?? I just becha there is someone close that can help. The dyno vs track thing is fun to deal with.
What kind of an Engineer are you?
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madmike
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posted July 26, 2006 10:10 AM
hey Salsa1, email me your map and I will do some tweaking on it for you!! and then I will send it back for you to try....
I will give you 2-3maps off of yours...
MM
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salsa1
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posted July 26, 2006 10:18 AM
Edited By: salsa1 on 26 Jul 2006 11:33
Entropy;
Electrical Engineer with very little hands on tunning experience but I bet I can use an LM-1 to improve my 1/4 mile times with some time invested...didn't help that I gained a few pounds before racing this summer and am at about 205 before suiting up I suppose....
Talked to an experienced tuner that has a EC997 Low Inertia Dyno with 4 Gas EGA and they seem more convincing for real world loading at 1000 rpm increments and using 4 gases to analyze , costs about the same ($350.00) ... still am more sold out on getting the LM-1 data logger and learning to tune myself..
I have another bike I would like to tune (ZX-11) sometime and may have other bikes in the future if I don't age too fast (48 now)... so doing the tuning myself makes more sense and costs less overall...
as far as the ram air factor: I am informed my ZX-10R makes up the for air / fuel ratio changes at high speeds with in-built factory sensors...so that is not a big variance to worry about afterall...
I have many of my questions answered ; sometimes I answer them myself after thinking about them long enough LOL...will continue to zero in on getting the best results... I am good for that when interested ... just trying to have fun as well..
I reside in South Dakota; no dynos here in this State so tune it yourself or travel 6-7 hours to nearest tuner and pay $$... no more dj dynos for me; ...
I am on the right track I think; gathering info before proceding...
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salsa1
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posted July 26, 2006 10:45 AM
Edited By: salsa1 on 26 Jul 2006 13:04
"hey Salsa1, email me your map and I will do some tweaking on it for you!! and then I will send it back for you to try....
I will give you 2-3maps off of yours..."
Thanks for the positive offer Mike; I will pass since I plan to buy the LM-1 and start making a few changes to map myself.. i read from another tuner on the ZX-10R forum that adding about 3% fuel to 13:1 DJ Dyno tune from 6,000 rpm on up will get best performance...
I have a few ideas to go with before I exhaust my options...be nice if I get a laptop to take to the track on a test and tune day ; that way I can experiment with a few maps just deviating slightly from current map which honestly feels very good for regular street driving as is...I can see what results I get at the track for solid answers.....
Never got my act together last trip tp the track due to not racing all year long and showing up late for time trials.. my tire pressure was at 20 lbs on a 100 degree day... should have been at 12-14 lbs...
Lousy 60ft's and aggravating heat in leathers made for an extra bad day....managed 10.37 at 138 mph.. last year managed a best 10.08 at 138 mph with better 60 ft... been frustrated not doing nines with extended swingarm and lowered /strapped..
should get there on next visit or two...I ain't that bad a rider I don't think.. need little more seat time..
Thanks.
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navpreet318
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posted July 26, 2006 09:52 PM
ent....yup the lm1 has 12 s/sec....right....but thats on internal memory....if you go for external memory...like a laptop or a pda....it'll give you a higher rate...thats what these car tuners do...they hook up a laptop in their car they get way higher rate....
instead of goinig for the lm1 you should go for the lc1 and buy the dl32 with it....also for an even better result use separate lc1's for every header...the closer you place the sensor the better result you'll get....
vheck this following link and figure out a system....you'll be spending some cash but it'll be a good tuning tool forever....
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTS_grid.php
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salsa1
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posted July 27, 2006 06:01 AM
navpreet318:
Would need to weld one bung for each cylinder.
would the power commander from dynojet be able to alter fuel injection mapping for 4 individual cylinders? that would be the first question.I suppose you would adjust for one cylinder at a time..not knocking that but would be much more time consuming as well as the extra cash needed..
Just using the 1/4 mile track as a performance measuring mechanism; it makes more sense to adjust for all four cylinders due to time constraints..
be nice to adjust each cylinder if a guy has the time and means no doubt....I will inquire into the lc-1 and dj32 mentioned.. might be overkill.. not sure ..but thanks for tip...worth looking into...
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ninja12
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posted July 27, 2006 07:33 AM
The USB commander has a cyclinder trim feature.
I just don't think it's that serious, YET.
Some of us tend to go too far too fast in the wrong direction.
I bet if we spend our time improving our 60' and dropping
that next 10lbs we would be alot faster than we would be by
getting that last 2 or 3 hp out of the engine and
another $300 out our wallet.
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Lorcan
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posted July 27, 2006 12:32 PM
Salsa, yes I got my 750 turbo from 185 to 195mph using a map built on a DJ250 and backed up with the WBC on the bike which gave identical results during actual top speed runs.
As others have said, any O2 sensor is just a tool. I built a map from scratch on my alcohol 750 in the 1990s using a narrowband sensor, because that was all that was available at the time (for sensible money anyway), and fine tuned it at the track where it ran mid 8s at 160+mph.
Our next project has multiple EGT and wideband sensors amongst others, as it won't fit on a dyno so will have to be tuned at the track... 
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salsa1
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posted July 27, 2006 03:37 PM
Thing that I note after talking to my tuner is that he basically tumed for 13:1 at which gas burns the best.. but he admits my bike might like to be at 12.8:1 or other than 13:1 .. he does not mess with other ratios cause that would take more time... that seems somewhat crappy service ro me.. I paid the man $300.00 for best power or so I thought..
Tuner with EC997 Dyno with 4 Gas EGA charges about the same ($350) and he has a better system and is willing to spend 4 hours or so to get me best power as I wanted to start with.. should have gone to guy with EC997 Dyno with 4 Gas EGA first if I would have known... I am ahead in power I feel but should be better.. I take under consideration I raced bike under 100 degree direct sun ...so getting same topend mph in 1/4 mile before DJ250 tuning makes some sense...but now I am to decide if I want a $500.00 plus wide band meter to get optimum power or not....
Or could go with the tuner with the EC997 Dyno with 4 Gas EGA ...and pay for a second tune which would save me hours at the track...personally I want to remove secondary flies and remap and be able to remap with race fuel and pump gas for street use as well so maybe getting wideband and spending the time at the track experimenting until I am satisfied is the way to go.. not 100.00% which to do... need to sleep on it...
Glad to learn a few things anyways..I guess it's all good what the heck...
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Lorcan
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posted July 28, 2006 12:02 AM
Don't get fixated on the highest possible number on the dyno, what counts at the end of the day is getting down the track quickly and doing it without going bang. An experienced dyno operator should set the bike up for this, not peak hp numbers. Just as an example my little 750 makes 236hp at 11:1 a/f. It would make 250hp+ weakened off, which would make for a nice chart, but my dyno guy knows I run the bike at 1.5 mile top speed events as well as quarter miles so he sets it up nice and safe. I can then experiment at the track if I want to, knowing that I have a safe setting to start from.
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salsa1
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posted July 28, 2006 05:44 AM
I hear..Lorcan.. question I need to ask myself is how effficient can I be just messing with the wideband.. don't want to pay for both dyno time and wideband at the moment....lots of adjustments when ya include partial throttle openings using the wideband.. have good drivability now as is.. supposedly can lose drivability if upper RPM a/f ratios are altered as I would with wideband...
Sound like lots of messing around and without dyno hard to determine actual results..I see clear why it is best to work with both..dyno and wide band...
I guess I want the best in the shortest amount of time without spending too much... not an easy thing to find short cuts is it?
Thanks ya all for responses...
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navpreet318
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posted July 28, 2006 11:12 AM
well salsa it is correct that one cannot spend this much money on seperate sensors if its just for a fun and hobby's sake....so try for the LC1 with the rpm accessorie...it'll give you 4 more optional sensor links like TPS,MAP etc....ok....that'll be good enough...now hook it up with a palm vx....software is available for an extra 30$....and you're ready to go for it....again it'll take long hours...and is best done on an empty track where you can adjust and run back to back....
it'll give you the best possible results at a reasonable amount of money....\
regarding your query about individual cylinder setup.....i'll give you a link....look this is for you if you ever consider a full career in tuning or dragbike racing.....
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirt-complete-c-25.html?osCsid=63c003b22613ccae9862dc4b66954946
these are professional systems used in race & rally cars and bikes....like private enterants which cannot build their own thing ....expensive stuff but a complete tool....
well i'm lookin forward to my pc3 and my LC1 soon....and then i'll post some results....also i've done some things to my 05 12r....and will post the results on that too....
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Rearsets,Muzzy Velocity Stacks,BMC
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ninja12
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posted July 28, 2006 11:36 AM
There is no such thing as the perfect map.
Great map today with 80 degrees and cloudy
is not the same as 100 degrees in the shade.
How consistant is your fuel supply. Maps change with fuel.
I hope you don't want to try VP new stuff.
Get a good base map. and enjoy your tools to make the best
run that day. LM-1, rpm converter and an OLD laptop with Commander software. DONE!
The lm-1 software builds a table with AF simular to the fuel table in the commander software. You can't beat data logging.
Now do you really want to be dyno tuned for this weather condition and that fuel?
What if you want to spray? Opps, want to spray a little more, time for another pocket check.
Remember "give a man a fish and he eats today, teach him to fish and he eats a lifetime".
p.s. you will probably only need to change the 100% column for the track, that should not impact your drivability at part throttle.
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navpreet318
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posted July 28, 2006 06:22 PM
well +1 on that ninja12....very good advice.....
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Rearsets,Muzzy Velocity Stacks,BMC
Race filters.One Crazy 12
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01zx12r
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posted July 29, 2006 04:26 AM
New Option
Im not sure what youre wanting to spend....I run a DL-32 and 4 LC-1's on my zx12. So far the bike has been 8.40 at 170. Im 230 without gear. We carry Innovate Products and could answer any questions if you have any. Email me if you have any questions......Chris azx12rush@aol.com
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Lovett Racing/Pedigo Performance
8.40 @170
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