redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted November 17, 2004 03:30 PM
Poll Question:
Cryogenic freezing of parts - Boost or Bull
I know someone who does cryogenic freezing of automotive parts for NASCAR, CART, NHRA and SCCA race teams. He does everything from complete engines to brake rotors and pads (depending on the rules).
Supposedly it main benefit is longer life for high wear parts. A side benefit is a claimed improvement in performance numbers. Some swear by it while others think it hokey BS.
For street and road racing applications, what is ya'll opinion?
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
Poll Results:
 8 votes (42%)
It the trickest thing around. It greatly improves wear & performance.
3 votes (16%)
It helps a little bit on both, but costs more than it's worth.
5 votes (26%)
Stuff might last a little longer. No performance gains.
2 votes (11%)
Its hokey Buck Rogers stuff and is a rip off.
1 votes (5%)
It does more damage that good.
   
|
zx9rcr500r
Expert Class
Kawasakis UNI-TRAK®
Posts: 361
|
posted November 17, 2004 04:12 PM
I had my testicals done last year on my way back from Spokane. They seem to preform much better.
|
canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
|
posted November 17, 2004 04:47 PM
 Edited By: canadamaxxer on 17 Nov 2004 16:47
I knew an old dude in the Vmax world that swore up and down that a thing he called "poor man's cryo" worked to increase driveshaft strength on Vmaxes. His method was to find a pan long enough for the driveshaft to sit in, pour dry ice over the part, and then rubbing alcohol until the shaft was submerged. I'm not sure how long he would leave it, but the end result was apparently very good. This treatment could not have made the part harder, since it would shatter under load, but sounds as though the part became "tougher". A possible annealing of the metal?
|
slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
|
posted November 17, 2004 05:10 PM
notbeing a materials expert, but having *some* training in materials and such, it *might* have some benefit
but on other levels there's the risk of causing stress cracking if the cooling rate is too high.
as it cools it will contract. i would guess supercooling could cause the material to compress slightly, and perhaps result in a stronger part. (because metal being ductile will tend to hold a 'bend' (in this case the bend being the compression)
but i would guess it would only work on fine-grained metals.
coarse grained metals would (in my best gues anyway) also contract, but the shear forces would be greater and perhaps allow stress cracking.
but this is just a semi-educated guess. no real data or research to prove or disprove.
on one level it sounds pretty far-fetched, but still reasonable.
  
|
redelk
Moderator
Please... speak to the hand.
Posts: 3212
|
posted November 17, 2004 05:55 PM
Edited By: redelk on 17 Nov 2004 18:11
Here's his website.
http://www.deepfreezecryo.com
Not the most informative site out there, but it kinda gives you an idea.
From what I understand, the item is cooled down to around -320F using cooled nitrogen gas. When the item reaches this temp, the liquid nitrogen is introduced. After a predetermined "soaking" period, the liquid is removed and the item is allowed to return to room temp at a very slow and controlled rate. Supposedly to eliminate the possibility of "thermal shock".
After this, it is briefly heated or "tempered" in a special oven to a little under 300F. The method and times vary depending on what the item is or what is attached to it (i.e. hoses or wiring). From what I have been told, I can just drain the fluids as I normally would and just give him the complete motor and throttle bodies. What little fluids might remain would not be enough to have any effect during the freezing or heating processes.
Even though every part might not come in direct contact with the liquid nitrogen (i.e. every clutch plate in the still assembled clutch pack and so on), they will still be "treated". At least that's what they say.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
|
deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
|
posted November 17, 2004 09:31 PM
I say BS.  .
|
MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
|
posted November 17, 2004 10:15 PM
I have heard Great things about it, but I have never tried it. I am planning on it with a few parts this year!
Mad Mike
____________
200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
ZX10 Guy
Novice Class
Posts: 72
|
posted November 18, 2004 02:56 AM
Edited By: ZX10 Guy on 18 Nov 2004 02:57
I went to school and studied Materials Engineering. I don't know about the claims being pushed by cryo freezing. When quick cooling or quenching is applied to a particular metal during the casting process, that's the only time I can see quick cooling affecting a particular metal piece's properties. That's my initial gut feeling. I would have to look into it further and see some published test reports to include failure testing with a tensile tester and some hardness testing. I would also like to see before and after metallograph images of the metal part to see if there are any changes to the grain structure of the metal.
A process that I've seen work to add strength to a part is a process called meta-lax. The part is strapped to a device that shakes the part to stress relieve it. Here's some links to a description of the process:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/inventions/pdfs/bonaltech.pdf
http://www.eere.energy.gov/industry/metalcasting/pdfs/meta_lax.pdf
|
slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
|
posted November 18, 2004 03:38 AM
Edited By: slug on 18 Nov 2004 03:39
given the extra information, and the fact he puts an entire engine in at once ( i missed that in the first post (i know, i know, RTFP), i thought he did all the parts, not ONE assembled unit) makes me call BS
placing a homogenous part in that sort of condition isone thing, but when you put an assembled item, with all the different components and properties in the same bath...no way...
supercooling nylon?!?! wtf...
spend the money on hookers or booze, it'd be a better investment IMHO.
|
12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
|
posted November 18, 2004 04:38 AM
My tuner recently sent his entire dyno in for cryo treatment. It added 25 rwhp to my bike. I'm a believer!!!!
____________
If you aren't an AMA member, you're part of the problem.
NESBA #209
http://www.bikepics.com/members/12rpilot/04zx10r/
|
MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
|
posted November 18, 2004 06:46 AM
quote:
spend the money on hookers or booze, it'd be a better investment IMHO.
LMAO... not that is a smart man! I am going to do both though!
____________
200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
|
RAC4IT
Needs a job
Bergie
Posts: 3009
|
posted November 18, 2004 08:08 AM
It will add some durability, not performance. We treated brake rotors for road racing (cars) and they lasted about 50% longer than untreated rotors.
|
VincentHill
Needs a life
Posts: 6520
|
posted November 18, 2004 09:06 AM
Edited By: VincentHill on 18 Nov 2004 12:35
Bergie, didn't the guy has has the 500+ HP engine use "Threaded Rod" have his studs treated like this? Because all of the other Bolts and Studs were not strong enough?
____________
Made History @ Daytona and still one fast old man!!
|
burgerking
Expert Class
Posts: 193
|
posted November 18, 2004 10:54 AM
quote:
I say BS. .
and I think you're right 
|
zx12richard
Pro
The Green Monster..
Posts: 1133
|
posted November 18, 2004 12:29 PM
quote:
I had my testicals done last year on my way back from Spokane. They seem to preform much better.
I don't laugh out loud very often but this one got me....
I have road many cold days and thought the same....
|
k bryant
Needs a job
Sponsor
Posts: 2911
|
posted November 18, 2004 01:38 PM
I know a lot of TZ/RS guys (2-strokes) who jumped on this bandwagon years ago. The general feeling/idea was component life was increased. Nothing to do with HP +/-.
|
10rmotor
Novice Class
Posts: 100
|
posted November 18, 2004 06:02 PM
I wouldn't bother treating whole asemblies, but individual parts, yes. I know some folks who run a 600 turbo in a car, and they cryo the transmission gears with good results of longer life and less wear. Also fewer failures.
Not BS.
|
slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
|
posted November 19, 2004 03:41 AM
it just seems like this guy mixes enough scientific fact with utter and total BS that you really can't trust HIM to do it.
just like another site we all know and love to hate.....(mototuneBSa)
just enough good information...to make it dangerous to people who don't know any better.
complete assemblies? gee i wonder what aluminum heads, cast block would do in THAT sort of cooling environment..
from the way the site reads, it is poured or dipped, so we have a HUGE temperature gradiant ESPECIALLY for dissimilar expansion rates.
not a chance in hell would i subject an engine to that, i wouldn't even do a piston/rod assembly together......
|
lonniemac
Expert Class
Posts: 225
|
posted November 19, 2004 05:17 AM
i wounder what NASA does to their parts? you better believe science is alive and working.
|
Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
Posts: 568
|
posted November 19, 2004 06:55 AM
Edited By: Marcos Peguero on 19 Nov 2004 06:56
Slug, its interesting that the owner of
www.mototuneusa.com
you love so much, swears by this tecnology to put the cilinders, pistons and other stuff of the bikes.
From I have been told the proces is not just droping the temp. its a multi-stage proces depending on the part, so NO all parts get the same temp in the stages.
The part gets more hard but not more fragile, if the molecule arregement is optimized by a treatment the part becomes more hard but not fragile.
PS. This is old stuff for NASCAR its been used for many years. We are discovering the hot water.
|
slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
|
posted November 19, 2004 11:21 AM
the problem i have is this: he prics 'entire engines'
450 for a 4 cyl engine
does that include assmebly and disassembly?
THAT is my problem with that particular site.
again, no issue with the fundamental ideas and the procedure FOR SINGLE HOMOGENOUS PART.
i understand the durability improvement side.
BUT BUT BUT
to do an entire engine?
OR if they DO a complete teardown to individually treat parts... 450 is a VERY small number for an engine teardown...
like you said, it is amultistage process that depends onthe part. doing an entire engine assembly does NOT allow for that...
hence my tongue in cheek recomendation tos pend the money on booz and hookers instead of that company....
;p
|
Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
Posts: 568
|
posted November 19, 2004 12:04 PM
Slug, the information I have comes from a friend's of Pat Mac Givern that used to have a shop for that and all the parts where disasembled and procesed individualy.
Since Im a son of a PHD in bio-quem. the firts question I asked "then its simple, to pur liuid-nitrogen in the part? Mom, where can I buy the stuff!", BUT its not that simple to get the full benefits of the proces, I was told later.
Im 100% with you Slug.
|
slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
|
posted November 19, 2004 03:15 PM
yeh same goes for stress relieving piping welds on a power plant. VERY picky process, and consequences are nasty for failure to do it properly. (radioactive contamination etc etc)
having a bike engine grenade at 13000rpm leaned over on track is LAST place i want to be "testing" something like that.....
|
deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
|
posted November 19, 2004 05:13 PM
Here is the thing - so you "cryofreeze" the parts down to low kelvin numbers (which they don't really do - but they do lower the temps pretty significantly I guess)... what happens? At very low temps, the molecules that make up the material will vibrate slower (lower energy levels). I'm betting his angle is that because the molecules "Vibrate" slower, they "pack together" better - but this is complete and utter bullshit. What happens when you warm the material up again? The molecules return to the SAME energy level that you started at. Sounds like BS to me.
|
slug
Pro
Out in search of my mind...
Posts: 1433
|
posted November 19, 2004 06:45 PM
Edited By: slug on 19 Nov 2004 18:46
on further reflection....
i think though what it allows is more interstitial (spelling?) point defects. which toughens the material (breaks up nice even grain lines, preventing crack propagation)
if i recall from the old materials classes in power school ;P
which was a few years ago ;P
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC