extremelean
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posted October 05, 2003 03:06 PM
What would you think of a ZX12 engine in a ZX10R platform
Post your thoughts or ideas.
  
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k bryant
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posted October 05, 2003 03:37 PM
Not much to think about until we sample the 10. But I would think it would be much heavier and wider, so personally, I'd never consider it. I can't imagine any logical reason to do it, unless the Bonneville or Drag gang would see some reasons. But with how short the wheelbase will be, they'd probably gain nothing but problems.
For my personal preference (Roadracing/Sport riding), no thanx. I think we're hoping the 10 puts out 150 hp or so. So being a 100+ lbs lighter and the other benefits, hopefully performance will be on par with the 12. We'll see.... But thanx for asking.
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wannabe
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posted October 05, 2003 03:46 PM
I agree with KB. I can't really give you an informed opinion until I have all the info on the 10, but my understanding is that the 10's engine is going to be much smaller and lighter than the 12's. I'm hearing 162 HP at the wheel for the 10 (rumor or real, I don't know). That's very comparable to the 12's stock numbers and 100lbs less weight. At this point, putting a bigger heavier engine that doesn't really give you all that much more powers doesn't sound like something I would really care to do.
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TurboBlew
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posted October 05, 2003 03:57 PM
What about a ZX12 in a lighter package... ala missing 40 or so lbs... 
Start with..
-ZX10 wheels
-lighter sub frame
-composite gas tank
-ti bolts where possible
-one piece chin fairing that uses Dzus or other similar easy to use fasteners
-shift light of some kind
-more axle adjustment (like from 54" to 60".
oh and keep the price at $10,999...lol I know you can come through
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CrotchRocket
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posted October 05, 2003 05:12 PM
Yeah, what Steve said about a ZX12 with a stock swingarm at 59 1/2 inches and bump up the Torque, make the seat 2 inches lower...That way the Busa wont be dominating the 60inch PSB class...The 12 would be unstopable then!!!
Since the Zx10r is here, tell Kawasaki to build the 12 for the DragStrip!!!
Sorry, I am not interested in the Zx10r, just a purpose built ZX12!!!
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*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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frEEk
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ummm... yeah
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posted October 05, 2003 05:35 PM
12r riders complaining that more power would be a bad thing?!? i never thought i'd see the day
seriosuly tho. i'd think it would make more sense to bump out the 10 engine to 1200cc, but i wonger if that's even possible with the one piece block, and whether there's room to bore & stroke it out enough. suffice it to say 160rwhp in taht package would be much mroe than i could ever really make use of, but i'd be lyin if i said i wouldnt occasionally having 200hp + juice 
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extremelean
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posted October 05, 2003 06:16 PM
My personal thoughts..........A lighter weight machine with a chasis similar to the ZX10,lighter engine parts, a well balanced, well handling sport machine that is completely controlable yet completely tuneable to each pesons liking........I,m not thinking of just bolting the ZX12 engine into the 10 frame....this would be a machine built to handle the rigors of road riding or what ever you waned to use it for.
I for one would love to be able to flick a switch and have the power curve switch from tame to wheel spinning slides going around curves....just my idea of fun.
This machine would have some really sweet ergonomics.
Im not talking about building a unicycle either.
Think about it......use your imagination.
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Dino
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posted October 05, 2003 06:29 PM
We'll have the 10 for it's purpose. Personally, I think it would be a frikkin' shame to some of the things requested here to the 12.!! I think all the 12 needs is to go on a diet and just fine tune the trouble areas.
I'll say it again......The 12 is a great bike for many different types of riding the way it is right now. If they stuck a 60" swingarm on it ?..... it's only good for one purpose. aw fuck.....ramble, rant etc.
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redelk
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posted October 05, 2003 08:25 PM
A light weight chassis might be nice, but the 12R motor is hardly as compact as the 10R's. I'm sure that there would be some "minor differences" it the 12R's "wannabe a 10R" frame to accommodate the 12R motor's dimensions. I just don't think you'll end up with a razor handling 10R that has the torque of the 12R. KHI does deserve props by creating engine that's 200cc's smaller to produce similar HP numbers that their ground breaking 12R. Very impressive.
Now if the "real" question was would I want the 12R to be lighter in weight, while keeping all of it's basic dimensions (wheelbase, rake & trail, etc.) and it's unique design features... the answer would be, YES. Now on the other hand, if you were asking if I'd want the 182+ RWHP and 97+ ft/lbs. of eyeball smashing power in a 10R... probably not. At least not yet. When my 10R gets here, I break it in and then put a few miles on it after that, I'll be able to answer that question.
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flite leader
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posted October 05, 2003 09:28 PM
if you really tried
didnt zhooligan lose 65 lbs
100 is possible if you wanted to stretch street legal
it would feel like another motorcycle
there are well known ways to get more HP
not sure what type of riding you are essentily talking about
but 220HP + in motoGP
does not necessarily make a wheelie monster
the 10r is going to be a better bike
the 10r is not the 12r replacement
they are totally different bikes
recently the rumor mill
has Triumph & BMW coming out in the same neighborhood
of the 12 & the bus...........
who knows what that brings
its not going to be a mr rogers neighborhood tho
the 10r will have the latest technology
whereras the 12 is at least resting on its laurels
it would have been an altogether different story
had KHI not taken the slap on the wrist......300kph limit
the thrash talkin
the dyno wars would have escalated
from the factories
the new bike will have more a motoGP bent
not that im given cred to the enemy camp
that b king thing they had.......was a good marketing idea
240hp..... blown....probably more suited for drags
whereas the more the are like GP racers
the less so they will be.......or can be adapted to drags
the emphasis has already shifted
until naked bikes or something like the b king is offered
by all the factories with stouter clutches
engines that can be hot rodded.......maintained & fixed
without breaking the bank
a little variety has been thrown into the mix
recent ruled are sayin stack throttle bodies already
yamaha having the largest by far at a reputed 50mm
(the size on the orig duc 916...... the 10r 43mm's)
thats flowing a lot of air for each of the 4 cylinders.................big diff
next couple of years is going to be real interesting
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frEEk
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posted October 05, 2003 11:39 PM
ah, well if that's what u mean, i'd say my answer would be the same as most have already said. put the bike on a diet (at least 50 lbs), give it an extra 20hp (180@rw), keep the ergo's except improve the seat so it's still comfortable after a couple hours (that damn foam compresses after half an hour & the edges of the underlying plastic seat tray cuts into my legs), and give it a touch more lean angle, which i guess would necessitate making the engine narrower. unfortuantely not an easy task. or is it? could u move the generator to work off a gear? u'd save an inch of width that way no? didnt they do that with the 10? a little more fuel capacity, a bit better mileage if possible (doubt that). and a factory option for grab handles & a backrest for the pillion like Vincent made. of course improve the forks & shocks to racetech specs. i think at that point ud have the best mix of tourer & canyon carver u could ever ask for.
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ninja12
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posted October 06, 2003 12:03 AM
YES YES YES!!!!!!!
I want a 170-180hp stock motor light weight bike, with warranty.
A zx12 less 75-100 lbs off the floor.
What are you guys drinking, i mean thinking?
IT would be a expert bike like the 12, busa, and gixer1000,
but DAMN i want one BAD.
Please make it!
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ninja12
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posted October 06, 2003 12:38 AM
Now if you want to build a better "big body" 12 like we have.
(1) add the ability to get the bike lower (ala busa),
shorter oil pan and more exhaust clearance.
(2) longer stock wheel base (match busa or 60") .
(very few road race a 12)
(3) make it a 1300 (incrased poser points)
1270 or 1290 stock motor. (or increase the stroker)
Then the zx13 has no competition.
Any two of these and zx12 dominates the drag tracks and sales climb.
Win on sunday, sale on tuesday.
If kawasaki at least match the suzuki in wheelbase and cc's,
there would be 50 zx12 and 3 busas at the track.
And the pits would be full on zx12 posers.
P.s. loose weight.
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wannabe
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posted October 06, 2003 08:23 AM
quote:
No
If kawasaki at least match the suzuki in wheelbase and cc's,
there would be 50 zx12 and 3 busas at the track.
And the pits would be full on zx12 posers.
But, I kinda like being the only ZX-12 at most of the drag races.
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Ozzy
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posted October 06, 2003 09:12 AM
Hmmm, I see a 12R in a "10R platform" as a good idea.
I don't read where it was asked about putting a 12R engine in a 10R frame.
Platform is just that, and the 10R paltform has a frame that allows much easier access to the top of the engine.
It has dual butterfly injection, is lighter, has more aggressive ergo's for track use, more main stream "modern" styling, factory undertail, led tail lamp, blah blah blah.
Looks to me like it would be the 12R many of the menbers here have said Kawi should have built to start with.
It makes sense to me for Kawi to head the 12R in this direction. They have the ZZR1200 for sport tour use, and the 10R for track use in the liter war. The 12RR (for sake of a designation) would fill the top of the ladder sport bike slot.
I think the bike should be delivered with a conventional length swing arm. The drag wars are a very small part of the overall market.
What they SHOULD do is have an over the counter streched arm with oem part number on it. You buy the bike, you want a long arm at purchase, you pay a labor fee only and they switch arms trading you the long arm for the short one. You want the long arm at a later date, you buy it and the labor.
Sign me up!!
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ra12r
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posted October 06, 2003 11:52 AM
quote:
The drag wars are a very small part of the overall market.
I personally don't agree with this statement at all!!! Here in USA, drag racing/roll-on's are the number one ways that street bikers relate. Guys in the cities and most parts of the country do not spend the majority of time riding "draggin knees". When the guys get to the gas station, after riding the "normal" roads the talk is about roll-ons and who is fastest. This is not to say discussion about nice twisty roads don't happen, but competion is generally not included.
In other parts of the world (europe/japan) road racing may be the interest just like Soccer. But here in the USA, on the streets, football and drag racing has ALWAYS ruled.....(well Nascar) But even those factory back cars that were sold went straight to the drag strip!!! 60's and 70's muscle cars.... Example performance is measured in 0-60mph and 1/4mi times. Not lap times?! Suzuki, I feel, understands this more than Kawasaki since the creation of the zx-11. But, this also colors the aftermarket support and the end number of sales. Suzuki out number kawasaki's on the street. The busa's and 1000's definitely are everywhere.
I would love to see a drag racing platform be addressed. If the factory folks would mingle at any of the street bike meets in the south, they would see that road racing is not something we can do on the street. They should have built the current zx12 engine with one more 3D inch. That would allow a greater ability to build the motors to compete WITHOUT NITROUS or turbos. What ever is fastest in the 1/4mi on the street will be what the average street rider in the USA will buy........car or motorcycle or whatever!
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fish_antlers
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posted October 06, 2003 12:29 PM
In other words a 12 without the "bizzarro frame" ?
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wannabe
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posted October 06, 2003 02:08 PM
quote:
quote:
The drag wars are a very small part of the overall market.
I personally don't agree with this statement at all!!! Here in USA, drag racing/roll-on's are the number one ways that street bikers relate. Guys in the cities and most parts of the country do not spend the majority of time riding "draggin knees". When the guys get to the gas station, after riding the "normal" roads the talk is about roll-ons and who is fastest. This is not to say discussion about nice twisty roads don't happen, but competion is generally not included.
In other parts of the world (europe/japan) road racing may be the interest just like Soccer. But here in the USA, on the streets, football and drag racing has ALWAYS ruled.....(well Nascar) But even those factory back cars that were sold went straight to the drag strip!!! 60's and 70's muscle cars.... Example performance is measured in 0-60mph and 1/4mi times. Not lap times?! Suzuki, I feel, understands this more than Kawasaki since the creation of the zx-11. But, this also colors the aftermarket support and the end number of sales. Suzuki out number kawasaki's on the street. The busa's and 1000's definitely are everywhere.
I would love to see a drag racing platform be addressed. If the factory folks would mingle at any of the street bike meets in the south, they would see that road racing is not something we can do on the street. They should have built the current zx12 engine with one more 3D inch. That would allow a greater ability to build the motors to compete WITHOUT NITROUS or turbos. What ever is fastest in the 1/4mi on the street will be what the average street rider in the USA will buy........car or motorcycle or whatever!
I keep forgetting the the mentality is different in other states. It's all about the twisties in California.
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Dino
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posted October 06, 2003 04:32 PM
It's all about the twisties with everyone I know. I don't want to offend anyone, but,......anyone can make a bike go fast in a straight line (not that it doesn't take some skills to make it go REALLY fast) ,but the percentage of riders that can make use of the bikes capabilities is very small.
You build a bike for drag racing, it's going to be worthless in every other category. I think what the dragracers need is a new version of the Eliminator
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ra12r
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posted October 06, 2003 05:32 PM
When i am saying drag, i don't mean wheelie bars. I mean something that is as versitile as the busa and buildable as the busa!!! Ride and Race the bike.....Street tire running 8.50's on motor only capabilities.....
Well, from what i hear there is a BIG street scene in Cali about Drag RACING!!! and no it is NOT easy to make a bike go fast in a straight line. (Fast is not 10.50's on a zx12) Your comments show that your riding is not about a red light turning green....
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CrotchRocket
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posted October 06, 2003 05:39 PM
Wannabe...I hear that!!!...I too like being the only 12 at the DragStrip and having the Busa guys saying DAYYUM, that 12 is fast!!!...You runnin a dry shot in there???...I say no its a stock motor and they not BS not with that MPH...
The best kept secret is the ZX12...Only if Kawasaki would make it a DragBike then we would Dominate!!!
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*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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wannabe
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posted October 06, 2003 06:26 PM
Dino, sorry, man. I should have said West Coast prefers twisties. Everyone here has twisties in their back yard just as good (if not better) than Deals Gap while the dragstrips are slowly being run over and closed down by housing developments. (Example: Pomona...where drag racing started...is only allowed to run 2 races per year.)
ra12r, yes there is a big street scene that is really into drag racing, but the scene is nothing like it is back East or in the South. Around these parts, if 30 bikes show up for a race, that's an outstanding day. Back East, 30 bikes PER category is a slow day. Yes, the drag scene is growing, but I'd say that it's still a small percentage compared to the overall motorcycle scene. Look at the number of people who show up to a drag race, and look at the number of people who show up to Laguna Seca for the AMA races....not even in the same ballpark. You won't catch fish and the rest of the Canadians riding down to California for a drag race. And, half the reason they ride down to Laguna Seca is so that they can hit the twisties on the way.
CrotchRocket, yup. I totally dig being in my own little ZX-12 club at the dragstrip. Even moreso now that I found out that Kawasaki is going to kick down a $300 contingency for my NMRA Super Gas win earlier this year. (Yeah, baby!!!)
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wannabe
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posted October 06, 2003 06:27 PM
extremelean, sorry, I didn't mean to bastardize your thread.
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ninja12
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posted October 06, 2003 06:29 PM
What i meant, make the bike more versitile.
Shorter oil pan and more compact pipe arrangement,
2 more inches of adjustment in the stock swingarm,
and a 1270 or longer stroke crank in the stock motor.
None of this would hurt the road racers.
I personally don't think you can really call the 12 a road racers.
most people could go faster on a r1 gixer1000 or honda 954.
The zx12 is a very good all around bike, but master of nothing!
With just A SWINGARM my stock motor has really improved the
kawasaki image at the local track. but since i am the only one running
a 12 most assumes it's built or i'm spraying.
All i say is "10 passes @ 147 to 148 mph" ! Is that's a big motor
or a BIGgggg bottle?
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Ozzy
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posted October 06, 2003 06:37 PM
I have to admint I am not well traveled. In the travels I have done, including the south, I saw far more sport bikes in original configuration then with lenghtened arms and slammed stances.
I have looked at thousands of bikes of all brands at major racing events and the vast majority do not have long arms, nor slamming.
I believe that Doug Meyers stated the total drag racing budget for Kawasaki would hardly make a blip on the ledger sheet. If this is so, it reflects their knowledge of the market place.
I think drag racing is a great event so don't get me wrong on this point.It just is not the majority use of sport bikes.
I have also heard that in central Oregon there is a Kawi V-twin test mule being developed with a blower on it. Sets low and long and no it isn't being made to go around corners,but built for the straight line crowd. Think the purpose is for straight line racing, against the Yamaha road warrior .( 9 second time slips I think)
I sport tour my 12R but I dont expect Kawi to offer it as a sport tour bike on the show room floor, even though I have seen many many 12R's being used for this same application.
I stand by my statement that drag racing is a minority market.
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