supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted October 22, 2007 03:23 PM
RR ECU UPDATE.. WOW!!
Just picked up the bike from my mechanic ( San Francisco) he refused to ride it any further than around the block.. Made a left turn on Polk St. and hit in first and almost through myself off the damn thing!! Didn't Ridge tell me to watch it in first gear. I then limp it onto the free way being careful not to give it anymore than 1/8 turn throttle.. way way touchy..
I then stopped at the gas station and merged onto traffic and nailed it a little(2nd gear) .. almost through myself off the bike again!! I'm not a novice rider but due to the ignition/mapping modifications the torque is right now and at any throttle position and all the time.. I have to run back to work and start cleaning and putting my fairings back on..
The PC3r ignition table or muzzy advancer NEVER performed like this. I recommend the mod to make a long story short... it also sings way past 12,500 on the tach and keeps on pulling 
supra
   
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted October 22, 2007 04:49 PM
 Edited By: ridgeracer on 22 Oct 2007 17:53
Glad you like it, and glad to hear its working
For the record what is your current setup? PCIII, pipe, cams(?) etc.
And I know someone is going to ask so also for the record at Supra's request I made the first gear only ignition map the same as the non-first gear ignition maps and then added 5 degrees advance across the whole map except for 90% -100% throttle were I added 7 degrees. I also extended the ignition maps out from 12,000 to 12,500 rpm.
The bike should rev limit at 12,350. I hope your tach is just off and that my changes to the rev limiter settings didn't actually disable it. I should have set it to 10,000  That would have been a better test of the limiter settings.
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted October 22, 2007 06:42 PM
Don't make me reveal my total setup But I will comment on the ecu and pipe.. Full system akra with bmc race filter.. No pc3.. The tachs are usually off about 600 rpm's or so.. So my 12500 showing is probably 11,900 actual.. Anyways just got off it again with my wife yelling at me, its just TOO MUCH FUN!!
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted October 22, 2007 07:58 PM
this sounds very promising! kinda a similar effect as the 14 guys get when they pull the flies
now what we really need are some 1/4 mile runs with a normal ecu and the RR ecu to compare!
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted October 22, 2007 08:34 PM
Well it's actually easier than that. We could set up the A/B map feature. We could set the A map to stock and the B map as the modified map. Then you could change maps between runs with the flip of a switch instead of physically swapping the ECUs
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted October 22, 2007 08:56 PM
saweet deal
ok, now how do i get one of your magic ecu's? lol
always looking for more power
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted October 23, 2007 07:09 AM
Timing Advance (too much) + High Rpm + High Speed (5th. or 6th. gear) = Burned Piston!
Be careful!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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zuminazx
Expert Class
Posts: 128
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posted October 23, 2007 08:02 AM
quote:
saweet deal
ok, now how do i get one of your magic ecu's? lol
always looking for more power
+1, I'll even make it easy for you, I'm running a full akra and BMC filters as well.
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jus1975
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted October 23, 2007 08:27 PM
I'l take one too.
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted October 24, 2007 05:05 AM
me me me too!!! How can we create custom maps for things like K&N filters, muzzy pipes etc.... buh bye power commander!!
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted October 24, 2007 09:28 AM
Customizing and sharing maps is easy using the Enginuity software. The hard part will be building up a library of maps for specific combinations of model, pipe, filter, etc. Now we could build it up the same way the PCIII community did. Trial and error and sharing the files around.
But something Entropy said to me made me think. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. All we need to do is figure out a conversion method to convert PC map values into ECU map values. In other words if my current PC map is set to enrichen the fuel 1 % at a specific rpm / throttle setting what number would I put in the ECU rpm/throttle map to get the same effect.
Once we figure out the PC to ECU conversion then we could convert all the existing PC maps and have access to all the years of accumulated knowledge on different bike setups. These maps could be used as a baseline map for the ECU then they could be further tweeked using the features of the ECU that the PC did not have.
Has anybody bothered to ever look at the PC file format? It should be very easy to identify the values. Set a zero map, save the file. Set a single value, save the map. Compare the two to find the location in the PC file of that value. Repeat. I'm sure a pattern would very quickly become apparent and you wouldn't have to do every single byte.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted October 24, 2007 09:42 AM
Edited By: entropy on 24 Oct 2007 10:43
RR,
PC3 to ECU map conversion: EXACTLY why i need to proceed stepwise (unless you do some magic).
I am running big injectors with all negative numbers in the PC3 map, and have an alternate set up with OEM injectors and all positive mapnumbers. Which set up to use with the modded ECU is one of my decisions.
Great work, this is FUN!
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted October 24, 2007 01:14 PM
hmmm... the PC file format is pretty simple if I recall? I'll try to confirm - can anyone else? PErhaps we can export it was well...
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted October 24, 2007 01:29 PM
Edited By: deathpulse on 24 Oct 2007 14:30
OK here it is guys! Bad news first - there is no "file save as" option in the dynojet software to save as a nice easy read csv or something of that type  .
GOOD NEWS is - you can highlight all of the values in the dynojet software, copy the values, then open up another program (say like excel - or if you are ghetto like me... open office's calc) and paste the values into excel. From here... you can save as anything ya want with no programming involved (I'm lazy - programming a converter wouldn't take me long - but I'd have to figure out the formats etc etc). So... long and the short - coming up with a file output for the PC is EASY. How what does the enginuity format look like?
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted October 24, 2007 09:39 PM
That gave me an idea...I opened Enginuity and found you can do the same thing; Open a map select a section of map, copy it and then paste it into excel. Great I thought. You can paste the PC map into a spreadsheet, have the spreadsheet do the conversion math, then copy and paste the result into Enginuity.
Unfortunately while you can paste Enginuity into Excel you can not do the reverse. You can only paste between maps within Enginuity.
Ok I thought I'll just write an Enginuity map definition for the PC file. Problem is the PC files are ass backwards. If I were to post them in Enginuity the RPM scale would be across the top and the throttle down the left side.
Really doesn't matter anyway. After looking at the map scales the data is going to need some interpretation anyway. The PC maps are 9 x26 while the ECU maps are 20 x 46
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted October 24, 2007 10:36 PM
yeah I think the ECU is a bit more precise than the PC =(. is there a dyno that can work directly with enginuity?
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bloodso
Parking Attendant
Posts: 25
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posted October 25, 2007 08:23 AM
I've looked at the power commander file format before and at the time it didn't look like it would be real easy to pull the map values out of it.
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted October 25, 2007 08:45 AM
quote:
...is there a dyno that can work directly with enginuity?
What a great question! And, what a great idea!
A flood of ideas just popped into my head so forgive me if I ramble....
First let me say Duh!!! I lead a very 'sheltered' life and have never been to a PCIII dyno tunning session. But of course it makes sense in retrospect. If I made dynos and PCs I would set it up the same way. Set it up so you could tweak the PC map realtime while the bike is on the dyno. For this to work you need to be able to communicate adjustments to the PCIII and save them. This hardware ability is the key to realtime mapping. The rest is just software to automate the process.
So the answer to your question is there a dyno that can work directly with enginuity is no. But the answer to the more important question can the ECU be adjusted realtime while on the dyno and save the results is YES! Kind of, maybe
The ECU already has hardware inputs and software to support realtime adjustment of the fuel delivery and these inputs are even available at a wire harness plug under the seat. Yes I'm talking about the Input Signal to Memory or YoshBox connector.
The ECU also has an unused telemetry capability that outputs engine RPM, Throttle, Air Pressure, Air Temperature, Injector on time etc as serial 232 data. Its currently unused because the factory didn't stuff the 232 input parts so you can't ask for the data. But the ECU does have the hardware and software to output the data.
What the ECU can't do is reflash the map realtime. To change even a single value you must first erase the whole map and then reflash the whole map with your changes. You can't do that while the bike is running.
But you can send adjustments via the Yoshbox interface and you can record the results via the 232 telemetry. What I envision is you put the bike on the dyno, you set it at a particular rpm and throttle and then you turn a big knob on a black box and watch the dyno report the change in power or AFR till you get the best result then push a button and record the RPM, throttle, and injector timing and knob setting (as seen from the ECU) Then you shutdown the bike, look at your data and reflash the ECU map.
Problem is while you were able to get the ECU to fire the injectors at the optimum value and record all the data at that moment in time you still have to figure out how to translate that data into a map value between 1 and 255 which means a lot of trial and error and research and I don't know what.
When the bike is running it uses more than 20 different values to calculate the final injector number. One of those numbers is the RPM / Throttle Map value for the current conditions. Another value is the Yoshbox adjustment value. Now when I put the bike on the dyno and figure out that the perfect setting is when the map outputs 43 and the yoshbox is set to 2 the question is what map value is the same as map 43 + yosh 2? map 45? not likely. The yosh value is added near the end of the calculation.
So it occurs to me that I'm looking at this backward. The above scenario is basically putting the bike on the dyno and tweaking the injector time till we get the desired results then trying to figure out a map value that will give us that injector time. Why not just tweak the map values to begin with and skip the last step.
In other words rewrite the ECU Yoshbox routines routines so that the Yosh knob values are added directly to the RPM/Throttle map value before its inserted into the calculation. That way if the current map value is 43 and the knob is set to 5 then we know that flashing 48 into the map at that point will give us the same result.
You could use the same system for the ignition map too.
It wouldn't be as seamless and integrated as a PCIII on a DynoJet Dyno but it would be a lot easier than god knows how many cycles of Pete and Repete were mapping a bike, Pete fell off, who was left?
So what do I need to do to make this happen? Well I need to rewrite the ECU software which is more complicated than just reflashing some map values. I was hoping to put that off till later, but maybe later is now. I could spend a lot of time figuring out the injector formula and converting the map values to real world units but why? The bottom line here is figuring out what values to burn into the maps and the method outlined above seems the best way.
Right now yes we can reflash the ECU. We can change the rev limit, get rid of the speed restriction and advance the ignition in a general kind of way. But to really unleash the power of the ECU is going to require something like realtime mapping otherwise it will just be to labor intensive and hit and miss to make it practical.
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted October 25, 2007 09:02 AM
ok what do you need ...
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted October 25, 2007 09:38 AM
RR,
I was planning on doing in a simple way.
Put yr ECU on my bike with the PC3r installed, presumably with a good map in the PC3r, say 13:1 AF
dyno pull
change the PC3r map towards 0 for a small range of Throttle/RPM values
flash in guesstimates to bring the AF back to 13:1
dyno pull
determine the relationship between PC3r numbers and flashed numbers.
flash in a map which should generate 13:1
pull the PC3r out
dyno and tweak the "flashmap" as needed
there is some pete & repete here, but it seems it would work????
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ridgeracer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted October 25, 2007 02:52 PM
I think you'll just end up chasing your tail.
Let me see if I can express it mathematically.
Right now you have ECU + PC = Inj. The ECU injector time plus the Power Commander time. I'm sure it's pretty easy to convert the PC map value to a time in mS. The ECU however is another story. What you actually have is;
(Amap * Bmap * Cmap) + PC
and what your really trying to achieve is
(Amap * (Bmap + X ) * Cmap) = (Amap * Bmap * Cmap) + PC
You want to add some value, X, to one of the many maps that make up the final ECU injector value in hopes of duplicating ECU + PC. X does exist. There is some number that will work. But if the PC number is 9 and the map value is 27 that would give you a conversion constant of 3. That constant will work at that spot in the map, but not at any other RPM / Throttle setting. Solving the above for X we find.
X = PC / (Amap * Cmap)
Your conversion constant won't be constant or predictable at all because it will be based off of other map values that change with the engine conditions. I'm sure you'll find a small corner of the map that you can develop a rule of thumb for converting PC values to ECU map values. But it won't work in the opposite corner of the map.
In the end you'll just end up tweaking the whole map bit by bit thru trial and error to make it work.
Also with your injectors your will find it doubly hard. How much larger are your injectors over stock, 10% 20%? The map only allows values between 0 and 255 and a large portion of it is under 25 If you had to reduce the values map wide by even 10% you would be in trouble.
I think step one is for me to find the injector flow constant in the map data and play with that until you can get your PC out of the negative numbers. I'm not trying to rain on your parade. Given enough time and effort of course you can figure out a map. I just don't want to see people spending hours and hours on the dyno if they don't have to.
The more I think about it the more I think PCIII to ECU map conversion is a dead end. It's better than nothing and starting from scratch but the real holy grail here is realtime mapping.
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PetriK
Parking Attendant
Posts: 30
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posted October 25, 2007 08:45 PM
Hmm... have any of you considered using innovate wideband and fuel tables / logs created by that ? As you may know, innovate WBO can be connected to openecu ecuflash so that concept exists. Personally I prefer just cut / paste to excel and write the file from there. But instead of going to dyno I have a wbo logger for tuning on track also.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted October 26, 2007 06:31 AM
RR,
I see what you mean, and will wait a bit before playing on the dyno.
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KZScott
Needs a life
high on speed
Posts: 7235
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posted October 26, 2007 08:36 AM
I think i would be happy just with the rev limit raised, and having the same mapping for low gears. (for now) with a custom PC map
i would love to try back to back runs at the track with switching from stock ecu to RR ecu to see how much it would affect the first of a drag race. ill test it for free even! LOL
____________
01 ZX-12R 8.84 @ 156.3 no bars, DOT tires. Pump Gas, NA.... turbo 8.47 @ 164.
00 ZX-12R 8.62 @ 165.2 no bars, slicks, Pump Gas, 55 shot.... turbo 8.32 @173
00 ZX-12R Fastest NA Kawasaki in the world 1: 222.046 1.5: 226.390 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R street turbo 1: 227.9 1.5: 234.1 Loring AFB
00 ZX-12R LSR turbo 1: 263.1 1.5: 266.5 Loring AFB Worlds fastest ZX-12R
CMG Racing RCC Turbos
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deathpulse
Pro
Posts: 1688
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posted October 29, 2007 10:18 PM
How did Kawasaki map the ECU? I bet they have some interesting software.... I wonder if any members could get their hands on Kawi's stuff...
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